Ingeus

[osdset]

Is there any way of getting out of this? I have been attending for months now and they are totally useless!! What will happen if I do not attend?

You will get sanctioned

[flumps1976]

Andrea87, if you fail to attend the work programme appointments your case will be referred to the DMA team and depending if you have already received sanctions you will soon find yourself with a possible sanction, 2 weeks, 4 weeks and eventually 26 weeks, if you don't fall into a vunerable group then no hardship will be payable and you will be left with any form of income until you either re-enagage or the sanction ends and if you still don't attend further sanctions can be imposed.

[HONDA17]

I'm with sub contractor Scientiam (second stage of the WP) since mid March. On Wednesday I have to atttend a one day Health and Safety course. I can't understand why, I'm not applying for any jobs involving food etc! Any thoughts?

 

 

SHE TOLD ME I HAVE TO DO THIS HEALTH AND SAFETY COURSE ??

SO I ASK HER WHY AND ALL SHE SAID WAS YOU HAVE TO

SO I SAID NO WAS TOLD TO GO AND THINK ABOUT

[flumps1976]

honda17 they can and probably will refer you to dma if you refuseto comply with a direction. potential sanction could be imposed.

[Me Myself and I]

I’m going to be thrown on the WP this June I will not give my consent to the data protection waver or any forms they put in front of me but my question is if Ingeus put me on a CV or confidence building or any over courses do I have the right’s to ask them to put me on an independent course which is run by a deferent company or college and not run by Ingeus or any of their subcontractors.

[soulfire]

I’m going to be thrown on the WP this June I will not give my consent to the data protection waver or any forms they put in front of me but my question is if Ingeus put me on a CV or confidence building or any over courses do I have the right’s to ask them to put me on an independent course which is run by a deferent company or college and not run by Ingeus or any of their subcontractors.

 

Just a personal take, I'm not convinced that being antagonistic towards WP providers are the way to go. I'd just concentrate on employment and not use their services. Though they have things like circuit classes and sleep classes etc, you're not really encouraged to use them. Unless you aren't at the effective job search phase yet, you will never really give it another thought. My advisor got me to GET funding for courses, they won't likely pay for courses beyond their affiliates. It would be pretty hard for an independent organisation to survive on courses like CV building, and its not really substantial enough to really be taught on. One of the first thing they get you to do will be a CV, its not a course, in my case it was a fairly poor template. The only benefit is, I now think about the appearance of a CVs for different jobs more.

 

For me the WP is signing on but a lot longer and a lot more regular. Personally, I think the effectiveness of WP is down to the advisor. My advisor is very rigid in her approach, I'm doing better on my own, as in I found my own employment, and not via her CV template etc. But then I had an awesome interview skills session with another advisor. I've challenged my own advisor on a few things before, it just consumes my time more. I've actually had the opportunity to try a free local service like a WP provider, but more assisting on skills/experiences/searches. The quality is different, in many ways it was very disappointing in terms of what they could do for me, and they did steer me wrong on something. But it is nice to get feedback, rather than just be pushed into things.

[osdset]

soulfire

One of the issues, is that JCP often inform claimants that w2w providers have funding available for training, and courses, it's only when the claimant enters the program that they discover that the w2w pimps aren't willing to pay for anything much, in some cases this leads to the claimant hitting a brick wall.

 

Take construction for example, CSCS cards (proof of passing the basic health and safety test, and where applicable proof of skills). These cards are mandatory for anyone working on the majority of sites now, the basic H&S test costs £17.50 plus £30.00 for the card, when I did my stint on workfare my CSCS card had expired, could I get it updated? Ostensibly yes, they agreed to fund it, but every time I asked for a test date, I was fobbed off with, "we will sort it out next time", next time never came and I got more and more frustrated having to explain just why I was not applying for any carpentry jobs, I ended up saving for it out of my JSA.

[YorkyLad]

I signed off last week.

 

I wrote Ingeus an email informing them of this and requesting three things.

 

1) my data be removed from their systems at my request

2) an inquiry as to who (other than DWP/HMRC/JCP) that Ingeus had shared my data with

3) whether or not a fee was necessary to obtain the data they had collected about me and what the process was to do this

 

This was sent 4 days ago and is seemingly been ignored.

[Bakatcha]

Hi Yorkylad

I think you'll find that Ingeus are party to (and receive funds from) the European Social Fund. Part of their requirements is to hold on to data for an extraordinary length of time (10 or so years from memory).

They will therefore probably refuse to have all your data removed on the grounds that there is a business reason not to do so (or some such wording).

[YorkyLad]

Hi Bakatcha, would be good to hear that from them.

 

I also fear they will have relationships with companies holding private databases (the traders in personal data) whom they probably could transfer all their data too and therefore not legally be the holder of the information despite having 24hr access to it. The problem here then is with transparency regarding whom they have given that data to. If they have given, or indeed not given, my data to a private database then surely i have a right to know who/when and why?

[soulfire]

soulfire

One of the issues, is that JCP often inform claimants that w2w providers have funding available for training, and courses, it's only when the claimant enters the program that they discover that the w2w pimps aren't willing to pay for anything much, in some cases this leads to the claimant hitting a brick wall.

 

Take construction for example, CSCS cards (proof of passing the basic health and safety test, and where applicable proof of skills). These cards are mandatory for anyone working on the majority of sites now, the basic H&S test costs £17.50 plus £30.00 for the card, when I did my stint on workfare my CSCS card had expired, could I get it updated? Ostensibly yes, they agreed to fund it, but every time I asked for a test date, I was fobbed off with, "we will sort it out next time", next time never came and I got more and more frustrated having to explain just why I was not applying for any carpentry jobs, I ended up saving for it out of my JSA.

 

hmm, never knew much about that. That's very disappointing. I presume they justify it with getting another type of work, then save up for CSCS.

[Bakatcha]

Hi Bakatcha, would be good to hear that from them.

 

I also fear they will have relationships with companies holding private databases (the traders in personal data) whom they probably could transfer all their data too and therefore not legally be the holder of the information despite having 24hr access to it. The problem here then is with transparency regarding whom they have given that data to. If they have given, or indeed not given, my data to a private database then surely i have a right to know who/when and why?

I'm not sure about yout Traders in personal info point. Though it does seem that pimps have said in their ICO submission that they can sell on personal info. See earlier in this thread. Once "sold on" I cannot see how the pimp can control what the buyer does with it. Guess we should all expect a rash of "pay day loan" advertising material and spam.

As for the ESF see the DWP guidance here:

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/pg-chapter-11.pdf

para 9 states

All documents (including any electronic information) must be readily accessible to requests from auditors and DWP upon request and stored in accordance with DWP standards.

and para 11:

11.

The table below lists the documentation that must be retained as a minimum to meet audit requirements until at least 31 December 2022.

No.

Document/Information

1

Evidence of the 2 way conversation/action planning to support Attachment Fee payment as detailed in Chapter 9 – Financial Procedures of the Work Programme Provider Guidance

2

Customer Action Plan

3

Sustainable Development Policy and Action Plans

4

Sustainable ‘Health’ Action Policy and Plans (London)

5

Equality and Diversity Policy and Action Plans

6

Marketing and Publicity documents including Marketing/Communication plans and products produced to promote ESF to customers

7

Supporting information for job and sustainment claims as detailed in Chapter 9 – Financial Procedures of the Work Programme Guidance

8

Document Retention Policy and Plan

Yep - that's right 31/12/2022 - 10 years!!!

[YorkyLad]

I'm not sure about yout Traders in personal info point.

 

I'm not sure either that's why i'm looking forward to their reply. If it ever arrives.

[flumps1976]

I think the whole removing your consent for the data protection with work programme could back fire.

When you sign your original claim and paperwork at the beginning of your claim to JSA you are in effect giving consent for your details to be held to enable your claim to be processed and maintained. This is for the duration of your claim for JSA so also covers the work programme.

By informing the providers that wish to remove you r consent you are in effect removing the JCP and DWP authority too which technically results in your claim being terminated.

[Bakatcha]

@flumps1976

nonsense!

If what you say were true there would be no need for the pimps to get a data waiver.

Go read the DWP guidance to providers.

All of this has been well documented elsewehere e.g. consent.me

Briefly:

The DWP maintain that they are allowed to share data between JC and Wp providers/subproviders/sub-sub providers on the basis that the JC is the data controller and the other parasites are data users. This in itself does not permit transferring of data outwith the parasitic chain - for this a waiving of rights under the data protection act is required. Even the DWP acknowledge this and advise their pimps that consignees are allowed not to waive their rights and should not be discriminated against if they choose not to do so.

[Raven1]

I signed off last week.

 

I wrote Ingeus an email informing them of this and requesting three things.

 

1) my data be removed from their systems at my request

2) an inquiry as to who (other than DWP/HMRC/JCP) that Ingeus had shared my data with

3) whether or not a fee was necessary to obtain the data they had collected about me and what the process was to do this

 

This was sent 4 days ago and is seemingly been ignored.

 

They have 40 days to respond to an SAR but if they want a fee they should advise you of that immediately.

Edited May 4, 2012 by Raven1

[Jabberwocky777]

Point of clarification - removing consent for data sharing DOES NOT IN ANY WAY STOP YOUR CLAIM or put you at risk of sanctions. There seems to be a lot of heavy weight action and bullying by these providers going on - I was with Ingeus, I am now with A4E - I have never been threatened, I removed all my personal details off JCPlus and got all my data under FOI, A4E have none of my details other than my address. It strikes me that many claimants don't know their rights, just because we lost our jobs doesn't mean we don't have the same rights as everyone else. If anyone needs good honest assistance with any WP issue please join us on unemploymentmovement.com. I have my own thread - My Battle with WP - I have no action plan, I didn't sign any docs and I see an adviser once a month if I am really unlucky. Knowledge is power and you do not have to bow down to these people. By refusing to share my details my pimp provider gets NO MONEY when I eventually find work (they don't deserve it). I should also add that I am ex JCPlus - so I know what I'm talking about. DWP guidance is there to protect you too!! not just give WP Providers big sticks to beat you with!

[Bakatcha]

Thanks again Jabberwocky

Bakatcha aka Gissajob

[caledfwlch]

Yup - if this was considered essential as part of the claim, and sanctionable, then there would be no requirement to sign a waiver. The fact the waiver exists suggsests its NOT covered by JSA law etc.

 

This does not make it impossible for the provider to work with you, they still get to keep your name, address, contact number, it simply stops them from keeping anything else, and for discussing your claim with 3rd party private organisations. And it stops them from being able to make money from you. But thats their problem, not ours, and not the DWP's.

 

Flump's, you are effectively interpreting the law as "unless you allow the Pimps to sell your data to marketing companies, you will have your state benefits withdrawn" do you honestly think that is correct?

 

After withdrawing consent, the Provider retains enough info to fulfill its contractual obligations with the DWP, it retains enough info that you are engaged with the work programme, it simply stops the provider from making profit off you.

[flumps1976]

I am only adding the information that was shared at an office meeting recently. As the providers are starting to have an inlfux of people withdrawing their consent (and I wouyld like to add her at what point have I ever stood up for the work programme in this thread) I am not the enemy simply sharing info that I have obtained through my current job role.)

I try where possible to help others in the forum through the knowledge that I have gained during my many years of experience with BA/ES/DWP/JCP.

Sorry for adding my tuppence worth maybe I will avoid this thread in future too, I though we were all allowed to post opinions etc as long as they are ept with the forum rules an in a civil manner.

 

Both the providers, DWP and governemt are now trawling through to determine if customers are able to withdraw their consent from the providers under the JSA regs. Next time I'll keep my typewriter quiet!

[Jabberwocky777]

JSA regs are irrelevant - we are talking about Data Protection which means you can opt out of sharing any details with anyone. No Govt dept or provider will be able to alter Statute to allow Providers to circumnavigate basic rights as that can then be challenged under Human Rights legislation. What Govt is going to risk that as they know they will get shot straight down for trying to place different criteria on the unemployed than would apply to workers. What is said in an office and what is actually law are two very different things and I am trying to state what the law, the rights and regulations actually are, not what they are perceived to be. I was also under the impression that we all still have freedom of speech, everyone is entitled to make their point, the general populace will then garner the information which they feel is legitimate.

[osdset]

I am only adding the information that was shared at an office meeting recently. As the providers are starting to have an influx of people withdrawing their consent

So more and more people are putting their feet down, good on 'em! No doubt the pimps will go whining to Grayling about it, and in time he will arrange for the JSA regs to be 'altered' in their favour.

 

I'm just fresh back from my favorite pimp lonely hearts club otherwise known as Indus Delta, I do like to inject some reality into their surreal dream world from time to time, the current focus of my attention is a discussion about funding certificates and training, the pimps seem to be of the opinion that none of this is actually effective in getting jobseekers into work, and therefore is a waste of money (profit).

 

This also neatly fits into their strategy of funneling anyone regardless of skills and experience into level entry positions, and their condescending attitude to anyone with half a brain, imagine a typical conversation "hello Mr Scruggs, what qualifications do you hold?" " I have a PhD in Quantum Mechanics" "Ok Mr Scruggs, I'll just book you in for the basic computer literacy course then, and by the way, what kind of car is a Quantum?".

[Jabberwocky777]

I would like to add a very salient point - the people best placed to help you get back into work were JCPlus - before big business decided to earn big money out of the unemployed. We at JCPlus didn't get kickbacks for people going into work, myself and a number of people I worked with at JCPlus lost our jobs purely because big business decided they could do it better, and the fact is, they can't AND advisers for these WP Providers earn lots more than we did at JCPlus - cost effective - NO!! Its basic economics - supply and demand - if the demand for workers isn't there you are stuffed - 2.67 million out of work, 400,000 vacancies mainly part-time) do the maths! I advocate anyone on WP to make sure they know their rights, if you don't know - find out because you aren't a number and you can't be bullied.

[Bakatcha]

Flumps

No one is attacking you. Your posts have been (and still are) relevant and valuable so please do not stop.

We were merely pointing out that the information being circulated by your employer is incorrect.

[flumps1976]

I know and I apologise for the "blip" had some very bad personal news and I'm only human! I may wear a t-shirt with a superwoman symbol but it doesn't give me the magic powers I crave! 3 people very close to me have either been diagnosed or had treatment for cancer this week and was told one of them is at a point where nothing further can be done and was only told last night. So if I'm not about it's not because I'm sulking about this it's simply because I am in a big heap of a sobbing mess. See we civil servants have feelings too