Ingeus

[osdset]

Yes osdset (welcome back from ID where we've been having some fun with Arrogance)

para 41 is particularly relevant to all those who ask "can the pimp contact my employer without my permission?"

The answer is a resounding "NO":

PM sent

[osdset]

Yes lots of fun to be had over on ID, The Voice of Arrogance is a trainspotter of the first order, who in their right mind monitors a bloody forum when on holiday?

[Optimist Prime]

Some interesting reading, Work Programme Provider Guidance PDF

Chapter 9 paragraph 37 onward is particularly enlightening.

 

Interesting indeed! I'd say paragraph 40 is the key to the downfall of these vampires -

 

The information you will need to retain for each job must include:

 

•

Whether the job is employment or self-employment;

•

Job Title(s);

•

Job start date(s) and if applicable End date(s);

•

Start and end date(s) of the Sustainment Period(s)

•

Working pattern/Shift pattern;

•

Employer/company name and full address;

•

Employer contact name;

•

Full business telephone number and e-mail address of employer contact;

•

Participant Contact Details;

•

Claimant Group;

•

Payment Group;

•

Participant Consent to contact Employer (please see Generic Guidance Chapter 5 of the– Evidencing / Validating Payments for information on participant consent); and

•

An employee identifier such as works or payroll number.

•

Optionally, you may also include the employer contacts full mobile telephone number.

 

So, as long as people stick to their guns and make it perfectly clear that no matter what they try to shaft you with, you will absolutely NOT sign that data waiver, they are on to sweet FA and hopefully will just leave you alone.

[YorkyLad]

@ Optimist, you are living up to your name.

 

there is the issue of 'poor administration' that occurs

 

http://intensiveactivity.wordpress.com/2012/03/07/more-a4e-employees-forging-signatures-poor-administration/

[YorkyLad]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2111872/Emma-Harrisons-A4e-Damning-claims-Back-Work-Tsars-job-training-firm-revealed.html

 

According to former employees from A4e offices around the country, the forging of employers’ signatures on the EVT forms was also common.

‘Everyone was well aware it was going on,’ says one from the Bradford office. ‘I overheard people being told to get the signatures and “do whatever they need to do”.’

Some employers’ signatures were allegedly faked electronically, using a scanner to copy a signature off one sheet and print it on to another. On other occasions, signatures of employers were allegedly copied by hand from the signing-in book at reception.’

In Manchester, former staff claimed they had held up blank job sheets to the window to trace a signature from a genuine piece of paper underneath.

A whistleblower there said he had resorted to such forgeries under pressure from managers to reach quotas for finding jobs for the unemployed.

‘Forging signatures used to go on all the time,’ he said. ‘You had no choice because it was made very clear to you that you would lose your job unless you reached your targets.

 

 

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2111872/Emma-Harrisons-A4e-Damning-claims-Back-Work-Tsars-job-training-firm-revealed.html#ixzz1ul4oesDt

[osdset]

Having just returned from Indus Delta which I much prefer to call the 'Dark side', I note that a number of my posts have been removed, obviously The Voice of Arrogance has appealed to a higher authority with much wringing of hands and pillow biting, to have that nasty Osdset's hurtful comments taken off.

 

The Voice of Arrogance reminds me of Tolkien's Gollum, with it's "precious" w2w.

I wonder if The 'Voice' shares other similarities?

[Bakatcha]

@osdset

The Voice of Arrogance reminds me of Tolkien's Gollum, with it's "precious" w2w.

Nice image to fix in my brain just before I have my tea!

Yes a number of recent posts seem to have been disappeared - and even one of VP lightly moderated.

I can still logon though - can you?

[osdset]

@osdset

 

Nice image to fix in my brain just before I have my tea!

Yes a number of recent posts seem to have been disappeared - and even one of VP lightly moderated.

I can still logon though - can you?

 

Yep, I can still logon.

[RealName]

I had my induction with Maximus (another company on this work programme scheme) yesterday. I have to say I don't see the point of it so far. I'm going through the same stuff I go through at the job centre, only now I have to do it on a more regular basis as from what I've read they can call me in multiple times a week if they choose to do so.

 

I'm quite disgusted by the tactics they employed when I refused to sign the data protection waiver. When asked for a reason I told them I didn't wish for my personal information to be passed on without my consent. The advisor then tried to bully me in to signing it by telling me how pathetic I was. When this didn't work I was passed on to the manager who tried using the psychology trick of constantly using my name when addressing me, of course I didn't fall for this and the data protection waiver remained unsigned.

 

I also refused to fill out another two of their forms. There was one which if I'd signed would have given them permission to hound my future employer/s for updates on me. Am I correct in assuming that by not signing this they can't make any money out of me when I get a job? I'll make sure that when I sign off I won't say that I have a job. If this is the case I'm hoping they'll go easy on me since they'll have nothing to gain.

 

The third form I refused to fill out was a questionnaire about looking for work. Flicking through it I could see that the only benefit to it was to give them a reason to send you on any courses. I was told that if I didn't fill this questionnaire out I'd be sanctioned. Is this correct? Are they allowed to make such a threat? I ended up filling it out, but it was pointless for them as I made sure to not fill out any "wrong" answers that would have lumbered me with some pointless course.

 

I also filled out a form asking for my telephone number, e-mail and address. I'm wondering if I made a mistake here and by signing it I'm effectively given them permission to spam my inbox and harass me via telephone and post. They already had this information given to them by the job centre, without my consent, so I don't see why it was necessary for them to be provided with it again.

 

I have to go in again next week and I've been asked to bring in my CV (I already know not to provide them with a copy) as well as an example of a covering letter I sent. I'll be blotting out the company name in my covering letter. How far can I go with the CV? I feel like I'd prefer to just show them the template I use and a brief description of the contents. This way I'm not providing them with any additional information about me. Would this be permissible or is this likely to get me sanctioned? Should I just show them my CV as it is but with my list of colleges and university hidden? I've already had my CV approved by university staff and the job centre, so I don't feel a CV building exercise is going to be particularly helpful.

 

The other thing I've been asked to provide is the e-mails I've been sending to companies over the last week. They want to see the entire content of at least two. This seems a little far to me. I've been told I can blot out the company name, so I'll be doing that. Did I make a mistake in signing the action plan? What will happen if I were to refuse to sign them from now on? Is there a reason I could give them that would be considered acceptable for not wishing to sign this document?

 

Thanks.

[osdset]

Check out this site http://www.consent.me.uk/ it answers many of your questions.

[RealName]

Yeah I looked at that site already. It seems as though I can prevent them from contacting me via e-mail or telephone, but this can only be done if I write them a letter?

 

It seems as though I was right in thinking they weren't allowed to threaten to sanction my benefits if I didn't fill out the questionnaire. However, I have no way of proving this as it's a case of my word against theirs. I think I'll record my next meeting, letting them know that I'm doing so beforehand, so that if they do this again I'll have evidence.

 

As far as I can see that website doesn't say if I have to show them my CV as it is, or if a template outlining what it contains is good enough. It only says that I don't have to provide them with a physical copy, which I already knew.

 

As far as I can see that website doesn't say what will happen if I inform them that I'd prefer not to sign the action plan. I can't see them saying 'OK' and that being the end of it. By not signing it am I still required to do everything they ask? I'm willing to comply to an extent, but I don't wish to provide them with more information than necessary. Wanting to know the ins and outs of my e-mails is a step too far in my eyes. As I've signed it I assume I now have to do this for next week, but will my rights be different when I don't sign the next one?

 

Regarding these pages:

 

http://www.consent.me.uk/sensitive/

http://www.consent.me.uk/destroymyinfo/

 

Is this something that can only be done while I'm not part of the work programme, or can I do this while I'm on it without risking a sanction on my benefits?

 

Is it possible to have my data from that questionnaire removed as well? The website doesn't offer this information.

Edited May 15, 2012 by RealName

[Bakatcha]

Hi Real Name

What a lot of questions! I can only answer from my own experience as you've already accessed consent.me. As a prelude I would say that a lot about the operation of the pimps is not set in stone and can only be tested on a case by case basis. Beware though that they always have the fallback, catch-all reason for raising a sanction doubt of "failing to participate". That's why it's a very good idea to record either overtly or covertly.

It seems as though I can prevent them from contacting me via e-mail or telephone, but this can only be done if I write them a letter?

I'd say the best way is not to let them have your phone numbers or e-mail address in the first place! I know that in most cases this is passed on by the JCP. At my referral interview at JCP the (nice) man asked me if I would like my phone number deleted from their records before they were passed to the pimp. I said "yes please" and he deleted my numbers there and then. From the outset I have told the pimp that my preferred means of communication is by letter and in spite of a few attempts to get my numbers and e-mail I have not provided them as yet. By the way "contact by mail" is one of the options provided according to the pimp's introductory leaflet. I see no difficulty in writing them a letter now saying that you wish only to be contacted by mail and asking them to delete your numbers (they may not do this but at least you will have a record of your request).

As far as I can see that website doesn't say if I have to show them my CV as it is, or if a template outlining what it contains is good enough. It only says that I don't have to provide them with a physical copy, which I already knew.

I have refused to give them either a soft or hard copy of my CV. I have however shown them it and allowed them to read it in my presence. Hopefully this shows them that I have a CV and that it is of sufficient quality to avoid me being sent on some spurious CV writing course. It also saves a bit of time and effort trying to make them understand how I've made a living(40+ year's worth) so far.

 

As far as I can see that website doesn't say what will happen if I inform them that I'd prefer not to sign the action plan. I can't see them saying 'OK' and that being the end of it

Threats of sanction would be real overkill. They like people to sign because they think it indicates psychological acceptance. Personally I sign mine as, so far, it's been very innocuous. The minute it isn't I will refuse (politely) to sign it.

By not signing it am I still required to do everything they ask?

Well yes and no. Not signing an action plan per se does not relieve you of your jobseeker and WP consignee obligations. Hence my attitude of anything for a quiet life and signing it so long as it doesn't impose anything I haven't agreed to. I have to say this hasn't always worked as I was once mandated on to a day long (tedious and unnecessary) course without any prior discussion and without it appearing on my action plan (or at least the version of the action plan that I signed).

Wanting to know the ins and outs of my e-mails is a step too far in my eyes.

and mine. I haven't been asked to do this and I don't think I would agree to it. In my experience most jobs applied for via the internet are not actually done by e-mail but through an agency portal site. I may consider giving them some generic/boilerplate type wording and saying "that's the wording I used for that job/jobs"

Is this something that can only be done while I'm not part of the work programme, or can I do this while I'm on it without risking a sanction on my benefits?

I see no reason why this cannot be done whilst on the WP. They may (depending on the nature of the so-called advisor) threaten sanction doubts. I doubt they would actually raise such and, if they did, I doubt they would be upheld.

 

Hope there's something useful in all that!

[osdset]

Some people manage to ask the most pertinent questions that others miss, a forum member over at Indus Delta has raised the question of why, when there are over 565.000 on the work programme do the w2w providers not fill their own plentiful vacancies for Employment Advisors with the massive amount of people on their books?

[soulfire]

Some people manage to ask the most pertinent questions that others miss, a forum member over at Indus Delta has raised the question of why, when there are over 565.000 on the work programme do the w2w providers not fill their own plentiful vacancies for Employment Advisors with the massive amount of people on their books?

 

I actually just applied for one of the providers, obviously not A4e! Money is actually good, I actually doubt there is that many vacancies, its likely to have continuous recruitment to preempt growing demand, or mainly turn over of staff.

 

My advisor actually brought up the vacancies with me. Its worth considering.

[Bakatcha]

My advisor actually brought up the vacancies with me. Its worth considering.

Only if you want a job in high pressure sales.

I don't

[osdset]

I actually just applied for one of the providers, obviously not A4e! Money is actually good, I actually doubt there is that many vacancies, its likely to have continuous recruitment to preempt growing demand, or mainly turn over of staff.

 

My advisor actually brought up the vacancies with me. Its worth considering.

 

There are at least 49 vacancies on the Indus Delta site alone.

[soulfire]

Only if you want a job in high pressure sales.

I don't

 

Absolutely, I personally do not expect myself to stay in the long run (pressure and job security). I do think there are positives from the role, I think the right people can provide appropriate support. Sounds bad, but A4e staff should have had more integrity (or a plan B in their own career path) than to have allegedly done what they did. I don't think the role is for everyone, but as someone in their 20's, its valuable experience. Also, if I get the post, nothing stops me from withdrawing my consent with DPA. Personally, I hate what I do now, so applying for a better paid role just makes sense.

[soulfire]

There are at least 49 vacancies on the Indus Delta site alone.

 

I read ages on Prospects, that these vacancies are pretty much continuous. I just checked the Ingues one, they are running it till December. Its like with banks when they advertise, I've been on hold for several roles before, it seems to be a way for them to prepare for temporary contracts ending etc. Another industry that seems to recruit all the time is recruitment, now I seriously doubt they have that many vacancies, but people just leave for better quite regularly.

[Raven1]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/may/16/dwp-fraud-welfare-work-companies

 

DWP 'did not do enough to stop fraud among welfare-to-work companies'

 

National Audit Office finds Department for Work and Pensions knew risk of fraud but did not introduce checks

 

The NAO also published a sample of current complaints of alleged fraud centred around the work programme, which included:

 

• Jobseekers being bullied into signing agreements to supply prospective employers' details for the provider to claim a job outcome payment.

 

• Providers pursuing claimants for the contact details of their new employer despite the claimant gaining work without a provider's help.

 

• Providers compelling claimants to work in inappropriate, unpaid placements.

 

* Providers sending clients covertly to non-work programme charities for free help without paying the charity for it.

 

• Providers attaching claimants to the work programme who have found employment since being referred to the programme by Jobcentre Plus but did not notify the provider of that prospective employment.

[RealName]

I'd say the best way is not to let them have your phone numbers or e-mail address in the first place! I know that in most cases this is passed on by the JCP. I see no difficulty in writing them a letter now saying that you wish only to be contacted by mail and asking them to delete your numbers (they may not do this but at least you will have a record of your request).

Yeah, I didn't give JCP permission to pass my details on to Maximus, but they did so anyway. At the time I didn't see the harm in filling out the form with that information as they'd already been provided with it. It wasn't until later that I realised that by providing I'm effectively giving them consent to spam my inbox and harass me over the phone. Good to know there's a way of possibly fixing this. I'll write the letter, then when I go in next week if my data's still there I'll request for it to be removed again in person.

 

I have refused to give them either a soft or hard copy of my CV. I have however shown them it and allowed them to read it in my presence. Hopefully this shows them that I have a CV and that it is of sufficient quality to avoid me being sent on some spurious CV writing course. It also saves a bit of time and effort trying to make them understand how I've made a living(40+ year's worth) so far.

I guess I'll just show them it as it is then, with list of colleges and university blacked out.

 

Threats of sanction would be real overkill. They like people to sign because they think it indicates psychological acceptance. Personally I sign mine as, so far, it's been very innocuous. The minute it isn't I will refuse (politely) to sign it.Well yes and no. Not signing an action plan per se does not relieve you of your jobseeker and WP consignee obligations. Hence my attitude of anything for a quiet life and signing it so long as it doesn't impose anything I haven't agreed to. I have to say this hasn't always worked as I was once mandated on to a day long (tedious and unnecessary) course without any prior discussion and without it appearing on my action plan (or at least the version of the action plan that I signed).

Yeah. I'm happy to sign if if I don't have a problem with it, but when they ask me to do something that invades my privacy or wastes numerous hours of my time I'd be reluctant to sign it if I don't have to and there's no real dangerous consequences.

 

I see no reason why this cannot be done whilst on the WP. They may (depending on the nature of the so-called advisor) threaten sanction doubts. I doubt they would actually raise such and, if they did, I doubt they would be upheld.

Cheers. I'll send those letters off then.

 

Hope there's something useful in all that!

There was. Thanks!

[Bakatcha]

My pleasure. Keep posting

[Optimist Prime]

I know this is an Ingeus thread but as I was job searching today I came across an ad for an A4E Advisor, that was only posted today. I can't post the actual link because my post count is too low but here's a c+p of the first part -

Date posted: 17/05/2012 12:17:37

Job reference: Totaljobs/A4e00474

Contact: A4e Recruitment

Role Overview

 

Our specialist Capacity & Resilience Advisors plan a programme of flexible and tailored support, including appropriate support to build capacity and resilience, pre and post placement.

Working on our new Work Programme contract, you will consistently guide and advise customers who have complex barriers to work through their personal journey into sustained employment, acting as a single point of contact for the customer. You will provide a broker specialist support from statutory partners and other relevant organisations whilst all the time empowering, motivating and supporting customers to move into sustainable employment.

 

 

Hang on a minute, NEW CONTRACT???? Didn't the news report only 2 days ago that despite A4E being found not guity of fraud (which is a WTF moment in itself) That they had lost their contract to provide w2w?? Have they managed to procure another ticket on the gravy train already? In just 2 days!?!?! Unless this is some sort of error- which is unlikely due to the wording, something very naughty- which is likely due to their shady history, is going on here.

[osdset]

I know this is an Ingeus thread but as I was job searching today I came across an ad for an A4E Advisor, that was only posted today. I can't post the actual link because my post count is too low but here's a c+p of the first part -

Date posted: 17/05/2012 12:17:37

Job reference: Totaljobs/A4e00474

Contact: A4e Recruitment

Role Overview

 

Our specialist Capacity & Resilience Advisors plan a programme of flexible and tailored support, including appropriate support to build capacity and resilience, pre and post placement.

Working on our new Work Programme contract, you will consistently guide and advise customers who have complex barriers to work through their personal journey into sustained employment, acting as a single point of contact for the customer. You will provide a broker specialist support from statutory partners and other relevant organisations whilst all the time empowering, motivating and supporting customers to move into sustainable employment.

 

 

Hang on a minute, NEW CONTRACT???? Didn't the news report only 2 days ago that despite A4E being found not guity of fraud (which is a WTF moment in itself) That they had lost their contract to provide w2w?? Have they managed to procure another ticket on the gravy train already? In just 2 days!?!?! Unless this is some sort of error- which is unlikely due to the wording, something very naughty- which is likely due to their shady history, is going on here.

 

They only lost the contract for the South East, the rest of the country is still up and running.

[Optimist Prime]

Ah I see. When I saw it on ch4 news I assumed when it said they'd lost their contract, that it was all over for a4e. Which it should be really, I don't understand how they can continue to operate at all given the circumstances.

[G4C389]

Hi, started a new job a few weeks ago and having asked my ignorus advisor politely not to contact them, the ***** ignored me and did anyway, i said i havnt signeda 'consent to share' form, she said i did when i started, i knew of this form when i started and was never going to sign it, i am adamant i never signed it, so either the sheet of paper doesnt exist or she signed it on my behalf (which she done with a few times to my knowledge) , is there anything to be done about this? sosorry to be a bother but just want a 2nd opinion