Ingeus

[Emrys2011]

Hello again everyone. Had my appointment last week, was supposed to have been at 2pm. I informed the lady on reception that I have to sign on between 2:30 and 3pm, so I asked to change my appointment to 1:30, which she did. I got there about 20 past 1, signed in, and sat down. My advisor (same one I was assigned to before) was busy with another person, so I waited until he had finished. When he did finally acknowledge me, he said I was early, and I informed him why I had arrived early. He then told me he couldn't see me until 2pm, and to use the computer to do a job search for half an hour!. I had already been looking for jobs that morning, but didn't make any comment. While I looked for jobs (with no luck unfortunately), he sat at his desk, eating his lunch while using his computer. He did eventually see me (about 10 past 2), asking why I was no longer in work, and for an up to date CV, which I e-mailed him when I got home. My next appointment with him won't be until the 22nd of this month. I don't recall him asking me to do it before, but he's now expecting a weekly job log sheet from me via e-mail, and to go to building where they are located 2 or 3 times a week, for and hour and a half each time. I don't mind sending him the weekly job log sheet via e-mail, but fail to see the point of going in 2 or 3 times a week? They can't pay me for my bus fare, as I use a bus card which I can put 10 journeys on too. Is there anyway I can get out of wasting time down there 2 or 3 times a week to do a job search all in one hit, where instead I can stay at home, do exactly the same thing, but split the time up?

[Bakatcha]

@gil_jnr

Good call! On this basis everyone returning to work who has not signed the waiver could enter into negotiations with pimp for a slice of their action! All I can think is that the DWP will need to know new employer details in order for them to pay the benefits you describe. And as soon as the DWP know the details they are available to the pimp.

Would still work with self employment though I guess.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Bakatcha

[Anti Ingeus]

@gil_jnr

Good call! On this basis everyone returning to work who has not signed the waiver could enter into negotiations with pimp for a slice of their action! All I can think is that the DWP will need to know new employer detaiols in order for them to pay the benefits you describe. And as soon as the DWP know the details they are available to the pimp.

Would still work with self employment though I guess.

I signed the waiver form about 9 months ago. SILLY ME! Lol…

So what happens if I get myself a job? Can I still STOP Ingeus from getting any money? Can I fill my job centre book in with starting a full time college course or something?

Can I ask for the waiver form to be returned or is it like a contract for the 2 years I am with them?

These Bas^$&£ at Ingeus are trying to bleed me dry! They are trying anything to get anyone into work! Even weekly unpaid work trials etc.

They receive weekly contracts with companies by cold calling potential employers, then send a bunch of people that don’t even want the F in job to work for 16 hours a week. Most only last a week and then end up back where they started.

Ingeus need to help people get in to long term jobs and not Crappy 16 hour jobs that no one F in wants!

Edited February 12, 2012 by Anti Ingeus

[osdset]

I signed the waiver form about 9 months ago. SILLY ME! Lol…

So what happens if I get myself a job? Can I still STOP Ingeus from getting any money? Can I fill my job centre book in with starting a full time college course or something?

Can I ask for the waiver form to be returned or is it like a contract for the 2 years I am with them?

These Bas^$&£ at Ingeus are trying to bleed me dry! They are trying anything to get anyone into work! Even weekly unpaid work trials etc.

They receive weekly contracts with companies by cold calling potential employers, then send a bunch of people that don’t even want the F in job to work for 16 hours a week. Most only last a week and then end up back where they started.

Ingeus need to help people get in to long term jobs and not Crappy 16 hour jobs that no one F in wants!

You can withdraw consent for your information to be used, info here http://www.consent.me.uk/

[Bakatcha]

Hello again everyone. Had my appointment last week, was supposed to have been at 2pm. I informed the lady on reception that I have to sign on between 2:30 and 3pm, so I asked to change my appointment to 1:30, which she did. I got there about 20 past 1, signed in, and sat down. My advisor (same one I was assigned to before) was busy with another person, so I waited until he had finished. When he did finally acknowledge me, he said I was early, and I informed him why I had arrived early. He then told me he couldn't see me until 2pm, and to use the computer to do a job search for half an hour!. I had already been looking for jobs that morning, but didn't make any comment. While I looked for jobs (with no luck unfortunately), he sat at his desk, eating his lunch while using his computer. He did eventually see me (about 10 past 2), asking why I was no longer in work, and for an up to date CV, which I e-mailed him when I got home. My next appointment with him won't be until the 22nd of this month. I don't recall him asking me to do it before, but he's now expecting a weekly job log sheet from me via e-mail, and to go to building where they are located 2 or 3 times a week, for and hour and a half each time. I don't mind sending him the weekly job log sheet via e-mail, but fail to see the point of going in 2 or 3 times a week? They can't pay me for my bus fare, as I use a bus card which I can put 10 journeys on too. Is there anyway I can get out of wasting time down there 2 or 3 times a week to do a job search all in one hit, where instead I can stay at home, do exactly the same thing, but split the time up?

Emrys

We have to train these people and manage their expectations right from the outset! You have made a number of mistakes!

1.

He then told me he couldn't see me until 2pm,

You were on time - their booking system was at fault in not recording the correct time for your appointment - You should have pointed this out to the advisor.

2

.and for an up to date CV, which I e-mailed him when I got home

. Without your permission they are not entitled to retain your CV in either hard or soft copy form. If you have signed the data waiver they are now free to spam your CV round every 2 bit "employer" in town. If you have signed the data waiver then I suggest you withdraw consent immediately (see the consent.me website). To add to your problems thay now have your e-mail address and ,probably, phone numbers if these were also on your CV. Again you may be able to rectify this by using the letter from the consent.me site.

3.

but fail to see the point of going in 2 or 3 times a week? They can't pay me for my bus fare

. I had the same problem and just refused to agree to go in twice a week to do what I do at home without the distractions of being in their offices. A series of interesting encounters ensued as the discussion was escalated up the food chain. I agreed to once a week but this has now become an appointment once a month or so with no compulsory jobsearch activity on their premises. I too have a bus pass but make a point of not using it for fares which they would otherwise refund (every mandatory appointment including mandatory jobsearch). If they want me there then they can pay for the privilege.

I think you have got off on the wrong foot with the advisor and need to reassert yourself and renegotiate your terms of servitude. Start by visiting http://www.consent.me.uk/

Withdraw your data consent and get them to note this on their action plan

Demand they destroy your CV

Renegotiate your jobseeking attendance.

Do it all politely but firmly as you have the right to do all this.

You might also like to look at the six tips for work programme survival, here: http://unemploymentmovement.com/forum/welfare-to-work/756-six-tips-on-work-program-survival

Good Luck!

[Emrys2011]

Thanks for the advice and links Bakatcha. I was first assigned to Ingeus/Papworth trust back in September of last year, so I can't recall if I signed a data waiver form or not. I've only been sent back to Ingeus/Papworth because my Christmas temp job was only temporary. I did point out to the advisor that I was on time, and why I had changed my appointment time, but he did say we'd be finished by 20 past 2, so I did get to the Jobcentre by about half past/20 to 3. I'm currently on my Dad's laptop at the moment, so I'll save a copy of the consent withdrawl letter later on, when I'm using the main computer. They had my phone number from the first time I went there, I have had phone calls from other people from Ingeus asking me again when my job last year was going to start, it did bother me that they phoned me up after lunch while out walking the dog, and my advisor ringing me up before my job started. I didn't answer it the first time, because the number was withheld, which I don't usually answer, but I did think it could be my advisor, so I answered next time. I also received a call at home last month, I think before my contract at my Christmas job was finished, phoning me at 6 or half 6 in the evening, which i didn't appreciate.

 

I e-mailed my advisor earlier this morning with my weekly job log sheet. Here is what I asked him in my e-mail.

 

"Just out of curiosity, why do I need to come in twice a week to job search? I have all the facilities I need here at home to do that, and I'd be here if anyone from the three jobs I've applied for contacts me to ask me in for a further interview, or to say I've been successful in attaining employment."

 

How would you suggest I assert myself without being rude? The last thing I want is for me to say or do the wrong thing, and they pull the old "If you don't comply, we will give you a sanction" routine.

[gil_jnr]

Can I ask for the waiver form to be returned or is it like a contract for the 2 years I am with them?

 

I've been looking at how/where any contract for 2 years duration between provider and client actually exists. There's nothing in those two documents you're presented with at the first meeting that states any form of contractual agreement, nor was anything presented by the JC at the time of referral.

 

As soon as you sign off, your contractual relationship with the jobcentre ceases, along with any obligations, so where does Ingeus fit into that equation?

[YorkyLad]

"If they're willing to offer £75, then why not try and and negotiate upwards and demand a bigger sum?"

 

In my opinion it's an illegal payment. It's a dangling carrot that they are offering to persuade you to co-operate with them in breaking the law. Do they ask if your employer has given his consent to give their data? Do they care? Do they heckers!

 

If i was to start a thread on CAD offering to pay people £75 for peoples contact details. How long would it last before the admin (very rightly) removed it? There is no difference at all.

 

In regards to whether people should be signing the data waiver forms. I'd say: Do what you want just remember that if freedom isn't excersised it's lost.

[Bakatcha]

Well Emrys you ask

How would you suggest I assert myself without being rude?

Hope the following helps!:

The trick is to be ever, ever, ever so reasonable!

You are on the right lines is saying what you have said. Just keep saying the same thing over and over again - it's a bit like dealing with a small child really. Don't accept what they put in the action plan (e.g. 2 compulsory job searches per week), don't sign the action plan (try to avoid the word "refuse" as it's confrontational),. Suggest an alternative - like "I'm willing to attend here once every 2 weeks for a jobsearch in addition to my activity from home". Record everything if you can - and don't be afraid if they are aware of this since you are within your rights to make a recording of any interview/phone call for your own personal use - it's amazing how some advisors attitude can change when they know that they're being recorded! Don't be frightened to be passed up the food chain - just repeat the procedure till you get a satisfactory outcome.

[Nystagmite]

Is there anyway I can get out of wasting time down there 2 or 3 times a week to do a job search all in one hit, where instead I can stay at home, do exactly the same thing, but split the time up?

 

I had the same issue with Remploy. They wanted me to come in once a week at times I could not do (which they knew. I emailed them before they sent me appointments) and job search. I can do that at home.

[Bakatcha]

I've been looking at how/where any contract for 2 years duration between provider and client actually exists. There's nothing in those two documents you're presented with at the first meeting that states any form of contractual agreement, nor was anything presented by the JC at the time of referral.

 

As soon as you sign off, your contractual relationship with the jobcentre ceases, along with any obligations, so where does Ingeus fit into that equation?

Unfortunatly the "customer" is not really party to the contract! The contract is between the DWP and the provider - the customer is really just the "goods". It's a bit like saying the tin of beans is a party to the contract when Tescos sells it to a customer!

[osdset]

Workfare is detrimental to employment prospects, why? Just look at how the media, and the Con-Dems portray claimants that are deemed suitable for workfare, 'feckless, workshy, lazy' What employer in his / her right mind want's to take on someone who has been regarded as incapable of looking for work under their own volition, and is by implication lazy?

A high percentage of prospective employers do not advertise via the pimps, that's why there are so many cold calling and speculative approach techniques used, there is a core philosophy in place amongst the pimps and encouraged by the government which dictates that claimants cannot blame economic recession for unemployment, it's ALWAYS the claimants fault regardless of job availability. Failure is not an option, you will be assimilated.

I wonder how long it will be before the w2w system goes into meltdown, apart from the usual quota's of unemployed being referred, they will be facing ever increasing numbers of claimants on WRAG, and those that have failed WCA's and the appeal system, add single parents to the mix, and you have a recipe for bedlam.

I can see the whole house of cards toppling over in the not too distant future, the only problem being like nature, the government abhors a vacuum and no doubt will dream up some other ridiculous scheme.

[caledfwlch]

Control and Dominate each and every single conversation (politely)

 

Control the conversation so as little is said on what YOU are expected to do, but what THEY are expected to do.

 

Demand they look for suitable, proper courses for you. If they refuse, demand they hand it to you in writing, before you will leave, that they do not believe their job is to see if you need qualifications/skills, and they refuse to do so Again if they refuse to put it in writing tell them, politely, oh well, it will be in the transcript of my personal recording of this interview, which will be given to my JSA Advisor next time in complaint. (whether you are recording or not)

 

Hammer out diary sheets on your PC with at least a hundred plus actions per interview, cunningly layed out to be wasteful in paper and ink, they have to print stuff like that out for you I believe. Now, they are wasting your time, but you are costing THEM money!

 

Take every opportunity to steer the conversation into wild tangents.

[Bakatcha]

Oh dear the Indus Delta site seems to have crashed! I do hope that it's none of you unemployed out there who is responsible.

[osdset]

Oh dear the Indus Delta site seems to have crashed! I do hope that it's none of you unemployed out there who is responsible.

I did make a couple of disparaging comments on there last week, maybe they are all sulking?

[HannsG]

I had the same issue with Remploy. They wanted me to come in once a week at times I could not do (which they knew. I emailed them before they sent me appointments) and job search. I can do that at home.

 

I have to go in every week now as well to use their slow, outdated computers to look for jobs. Whereas before I was regularly applying for 6-7 jobs per week, I have now cut back to the minimum of 3 per week that I am obliged to do. If they want to mess you about then return the favor.

[Bakatcha]

I did make a couple of disparaging comments on there last week, maybe they are all sulking?

I saw your comments. In the past I have been a regular contributor in the mistaken belief that well reasoned argument might bring a little sanity to the WP practioners.

Result? Well one of the threads to which I contributed was censored and removed - and I have been banned to outer darkness (twice!). It would seem that the site is just an organ for the right wing Centre for Social and Economic Inclusion. A somewhat ironic title considering their intolerance of views which do not conform to their world view!

[Bakatcha]

I did make a couple of disparaging comments on there last week, maybe they are all sulking?

 

And (just like Arnold Scwharzenneger) IT'S BACK!. Feel free to continue osrdset - if you've not been banned.

[Emrys2011]

Just to keep you all updated, here was the reply to my question I asked my advisor via e-mail.

 

Here is what I asked "Just out of curiosity, why do I need to come in twice a week to job search? I have all the facilities I need here at home to do that, and I'd be here if anyone from the three jobs I've applied for contacts me to ask me in for a further interview, or to say I've been successful in attaining employment."

 

And this was his reply "Its only because we want to provide as much help as possible and by being here it allows us to let you know of opportunities straight away and we can also give you that extra push we all need."

 

Before I reply to his e-mail, what would be the best way of saying that I appreciate his help (even though I actually don't, but I do try to be diplomatic when I can), but I'm in no need of an extra push. I still live at home with my Mum and Dad, and my Mum gives me all the extra push I need. In other words, when he says me being there allows them to let me know of opportunities straight away, does he really mean that it lets them keep an eye on me?

[Bakatcha]

Just to keep you all updated, here was the reply to my question I asked my advisor via e-mail.

 

Here is what I asked "Just out of curiosity, why do I need to come in twice a week to job search? I have all the facilities I need here at home to do that, and I'd be here if anyone from the three jobs I've applied for contacts me to ask me in for a further interview, or to say I've been successful in attaining employment."

 

And this was his reply "Its only because we want to provide as much help as possible and by being here it allows us to let you know of opportunities straight away and we can also give you that extra push we all need."

 

Before I reply to his e-mail, what would be the best way of saying that I appreciate his help (even though I actually don't, but I do try to be diplomatic when I can), but I'm in no need of an extra push. I still live at home with my Mum and Dad, and my Mum gives me all the extra push I need. In other words, when he says me being there allows them to let me know of opportunities straight away, does he really mean that it lets them keep an eye on me?

What he really means is that he can keep an eye on you, that it is more difficult for someone to be working on the black and they just want to make life inconvenient. I would suggest you say something like:

You assert that my twice weekly mandatory attendance "allows us to let you know of opportunities straight away ". This is nonsense as you already have the means of communicating with me virtually instanteously (e-mail and phone) should any "opportunities" just happen to occur. I therefore discount this as a reason. As for the other reason you give i.e. " we can also give you that extra push we all need.". This is extremely presumptous on your part. There is no evidence at all that I need any "extra push" from you or anyone else. Nor is there any evidence that by being incarcerated in your premises twice a week that I will become more motivated. What exactly is the nature of this "extra push"? I would add that there are more distractions from meaningful jobsearch within your premises than where I normally conduct such activity and so in reality the imposition of twice weekly attendance is counter productive.

In the view of this I will be raising this issue with yourself at our next scheduled meeting.

 

Remember that you should cost them money as every time they force your attendance they have to pay your fares.

[Emrys2011]

Thanks for the advice Bakatcha. I haven't copied it word for word, but this is what I've put in my reply to his e-mail, minus his name of course.

 

I appreciate that, but you already have the means of communicating with me virtually instanteously via e-mail and phone, should any opportunities arise. I also feel that I don't require any extra push, as my parents are very supportive of me, and are as eager for me to get back into employment as I am, and give me all the motivation that I require. Plus, since I don't pay for a bus ticket each time I use the bus (I have a bus card which I put ten journeys on too at a time), I would not be able to claim back any bus fare. I already dislike having to claim Job Seekers Allowance, because I prefer to earn money by working, so I wouldn't wish to claim back any bus fares as well. If you feel I do need to come in to do a jobsearch at the office, then I would be willing to attend once a fortnight, on the same day as my sign on day at the Jobcentre, for a half hour job search, since I would have searching for a job for at least an hour if not more already at home.

 

If he replies by saying he thinks I've been rude or obnoxious, can he give me a sanction, or notify the jobcentre?

 

Quick edit, I've just checked my e-mails, here is his reply, minus my name.

 

"Thank you for your response, I do understand where you are coming from and it is great that you have supportive family as it aids in the development of progression and always good to have a strong support network. However I feel as your advisor and someone who deals with a large number of people in a similar position, it is in your best interest to take on board the advice and support given from us and rather than dictate when you come to allow us to work with you more directly. It also allows you the chance to work more closely with our employer advisor, who goes out and sources jobs for our clients. No client I work with comes in forth nightly to job search as I feel it becomes detrimental to the client when they need help and motivation. It is our job to provide you with the relevant skills and motivation to do this. So this is why I have suggested that you come in on any two days you choose, I can only apologise for the bus fare situation. Pride is a big thing but sometimes you need to understand that accepting your situation for what it is, is not as bad as you make it.

Look forward to seeing you in the office twice a week, please understand that I don’t always have this much time to response to emails considering I have a caseload of 150 clients.

 

Kind regards"

 

It doesn't fill me with confidence when he makes spelling mistakes, such as putting "forth nightly" instead of fortnightly, especially since he has access to programs like Microsoft Word, which has a spellchecker.

Any suggestions on how best to respond to what my advisor said in their e-mail? If I do need any help or motivation, then I will ring him to make an appointment to see him, should I ever need to.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Emrys2011

[Bakatcha]

Wow 150 clients! I've just finished reading Anrew Dutton's (a4e) evidence to the committee. He says the average is around 80 to 100 per adviser.

I would respond by saying that the points you made originally still hold good and that you look forward to discussing this at your next appointment. - Don't use your 10 ticket for the bus - pay a return fare (in my case this is £3.40) and reclaim the money from them for each appointment. If they insist on your attendance they should pay for it.

 

Have the discussion face to face and see where it gets to - be reasonable and just keep stating your case.

[Emrys2011]

Yeah, I was pretty surprised with the amount he quoted as well. Thanks for the suggestion about getting a return fare, I'll do that. I'm still expected to go at least twice a week to do a job search, my next appointment with him won't be until the 22nd of this month, should I just wait until then, or should I go in for my job searches? I didn't appreciate his comment about pride, considering I'm not being proud, he's just assuming I'm being proud.

 

Here is my reply to his last e-mail, minus his name and the employer advisor's name.

 

I understand that, I was unaware of your case load, and appreciate you taking the time to reply to my e-mail. Could you elaborate on what sort of advice and support you could provide for me? I apologize if you felt like I was dictating how often I would be attending for job search, I didn't feel like I had much of a choice when you said I'd need to attend twice a week. How does the employer advisor manage to source jobs, if I may ask?

 

 

If I should need any help or motivation, I would phone you should I need to. I know you work very hard, and I've seen that you are always busy when I've been to the Papworth/Ingeus office. I already possess the relevant skills to get back into work, and all the motivation I require. I dislike your assumption that any comments I've made are because of any pride I have, because I know this is not the case. I accept and understand my situation perfectly, and I know it is not as bad as I make out.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Emrys2011

[gil_jnr]

Unfortunately, what "providing relevant skills and support" means in Ingeus-speak, is getting as many people to sit their in-house courses in CV writing, literacy & numeracy, et al, as possible for inflated course fees per participant, which they then get paid for delivering through the European Social Fund.

 

It's simply another revenue stream to them, regardless of whether it's of any real benefit to the participant.

 

Edit to add..

 

I wonder...Maybe the E.S.F. should be renamed the 'European Slush Fund' as it's a handy vehicle to hide the amount that's actually being paid to the private-sector providers via the Gov'ts EU contributions and keeping the real cost of the programme off the accounts books?

 

..back on topic

Edited February 13, 2012 by gil_jnr

[Emrys2011]

Thanks for explaining that gil_jnr. The funny thing is, my advisor said to me the last time I saw him that my CV looked fine.

 

Something I did want to clear up though. I was originally sent to Ingeus/Papworth last year, because I had been out of work for more then 6 months. When I signed back on last month, they put me through as a rapid reclaim. I was under the assumption that I would only be sent back to Ingeus/Papworth after being unemployed again for 6 months, which I haven't, it's only been a maxium of 5 weeks. Should I point out that I don't qualify to be sent back to Ingeus/Papworth?