Ingeus

[silv.surfer]

I was appalled when I read most of the Guardian link to find that the present sanctions is target driven by DWP and can understand now why my Friend's 'advisor' phoned and told him the 'Job Interview was postponed so no need to go in '- then when he went in the next day as usual told him ' I didnt mean not to come in for Job Search in the afternoon ' so she sanctioned for 2 weeks - she didnt say come in afternoon for job search.

 

Do they include Thought Reading Classes - they have sent him on Literacy, Numeracy and IT courses, so have got a nice little earner there - but he didnt understand one end of a PC from the other - had to get another poor soul to mail his CV to me on a mail address I have lent him so I can send it to Companies on his behalf myself. P.S. he is better on % than I am, I go the scenic route and get the same answer

 

I was made Redundant in 2003 at 64 after working for them for 10 years - was then drawing OAP and paying Tax on it because 1999 my Husband died so I had Will, Home Sale and new Home to sort so needed Pension - when made Redundant through Employers loss of 2 major Customers I didnt sign on instead went to Agency but found I was getting xxxt jobs because I had a car and boy did that give me insight in how some Employers treat Agency Temps and things now are so target driven and how that target is ofter imoraly achieved, but another Agency sent me to a lovely friendly office so the balance was redressed

[Bakatcha]

Hi silv.surfer

“so she sanctioned for 2 weeks” well she may have raised a sanction doubt which needs to be confirmed (or rubber stamped!) by the decision maker at the DWP. If so you should fight it by writing out your side of the story and giving it to the JC. You may also want to make a complaint at the same time – you can do this on the form at the back of the JC booklet called “our service standards”. I think all you need to say is that the advisor told him “the 'Job Interview was postponed so no need to go in” and then raised a sanction doubt for failing to attend. If the sanction has already been confirmed then you should appeal on the same grounds.

Now you may not be successful but it is worth doing anyway. The more we just accept injustice as the norm then the more these people will try to get away with.

You may also use the provider’s own internal complaints procedure though this is likely to be extremely long winded and ultimately ineffectual.

Good luck!

[silv.surfer]

Hi Batacha

 

This was confirmed by DWP and my Friend also had HB and CT removed - put in appeal I think - but in the immediate had no money, this was when I funded him with £60 to get load of pot noodles and some Electric so could eat while this was going on so he wouldnt have to get Crisis Loan which he would have to pay back just when I was getting his O/D under control - just then a Job Agency sent him on a Job that was supposed to be until Xmas so told to sign off but said Job only was 2 nights (16 hours ) and the Company said Agency had send too many people so had to sign on again.

 

This was about when he heard from one of the other JSA that DWP were making Work Prog. give Sanctions to wake up longterm JSA - the annoying thing is he does try hard but is aged 50- up there every day, sometimes even on his day off but some others that dont do much dont get Sanctioned at all, just sit there all day reading the papers - probably because they know all the proceedures.

 

All this is going on while I am in the process of claiming back his PPI -that was mis-sold in first place (he doesnt understand Banking things ) where the Bank has been having him over big time by paying Premiums for 4 1/2 years after made Redundant which he thought he stopped also any D/D's - but that is another story.

 

He is back on a fairly even money keel now and I can get on with his Bank Claim. I am waiting for some paperwork then can get going on that.

 

Thanks for all your help - I will keep a lookout on this forum but may not post much once the other gets under way.

 

Happier New Year All and Hopefully a Trouble Free One

Edited January 15, 2012 by silv.surfer

[osdset]

Hi Batacha

 

This was confirmed by DWP and my Friend also had HB and CT removed - put in apeal I think - but in the immediate had no money, this was when I funded him with £60 to get load of pot noodles and some Electric while this was going on so he wouldnt have to get Crisis Loan which he would have to pay back just when I was getting his O/D under control - just then a Job Agency sent him on a Job that was supposed to be until Xmas so told to sign off but said Job only was 2 nights (16 hours ) and the Company said Agency had send too many people so had to sign on again.

 

This was about when he heard from one of the other JSA that DWP were making Work Prog. give Sanctions to wake up longterm JSA - the annoying thing is he does try hard but is aged 50- up there every day, sometimes even on his day off but some others that dont do much dont get Sanctioned at all, just sit there all day reading the papers - probably because they know all the proceedures

 

You have hit the nail on the head there, JCP sanction the easy targets, it tends to be the honest claimants and those that may have learning difficulties, or other issues that get clobbered, it's not difficult for anyone with a bit of savvy to run rings around JCP, and they know it.

[Nystagmite]

You have hit the nail on the head there, JCP sanction the easy targets, it tends to be the honest claimants and those that may have learning difficulties, or other issues that get clobbered, it's not difficult for anyone with a bit of savvy to run rings around JCP, and they know it.

 

It seems that way. I got a warning the first time - had made claim 5 days before and had my interview the previous. Apparently, hadn't done enough and got warned about it.

 

I remember my previous adviser being shocked that I did get sanctioned for something later on.

[Bakatcha]

you say "my Friend also had HB and CT removed". I don't think this is correct - being sanctioned should not mean the loss of Council Tax Benefit (and I think I'm right in saying that Housing Benefit should also continue). In these circumstances write to the council saying that you have "nil income" - use exactly those words.

[silv.surfer]

He did get a letter from the Council saying he owed I think £89 CT and something on Rent but dont forget he did get sent to that Agency job that was supposed to be until Xmas ( 6 weeks ) and was told to Sign-off by Agency but the Company sent the last 2 people back as Agency sent too many - I know he was flying back and forth between HB and CT and it turned out that the Computer spat out letters wrong because they had a backlog and in the end didnt owe anything. Apparently there should be a 4 week run-on after signing off until they get paid, and he had signed back on straight away.

 

I have just been up to explain how Bank has sent him wrong papers and he told me he has a part-time job interview this week 15 hours in 3 evenings at first which could lead to Permanent - He found it on job search himself and I told him about getting some more Interview clothes while still at Work Prog. He stands a good chance as his background is Warehouse Handling. It is a Big Good Company - not one of the Work Prog. no pay flits.

 

I hope he gets it - he deserves it.

[Emrys2011]

Hi again everyone. Despite being told a couple of weeks ago I'd have a letter from Papworth, nothing has arrived. Then had a phone call this morning asking when I'd signed on (which was the 10th of this month). Advisor at the JC was actually a former teacher of mine, and I explained to him that Papworth was a waste of time, and he sympathized with me. He said he'd be informing Papworth I was signing on again, yet still nothing from them. Funny thing is, when Papworth contacted me earlier today, he said my last advisor at Papworth will see me on 9th of Feb.....then phoned me back to say the same date, but said it'd be on the wednesday, despite the 9th being Thursday. If they can't get the day right, what hope is there?

[Bakatcha]

The excellent consent.me site now gives access to evrything you could want to know about providers and their contracts:

http://www.consent.me.uk/blog/

[Nystagmite]

I have now been referred back to Tomorrow's People - because Remploy kept giving me appointments I couldn't make. Apparently, it's my fault they didn't receive my email. They were told before they made my appointments that I can't do Tuesday.

[silv.surfer]

I saw on TV this morning the Prog. Saints and Scroungers with Dom Littlewood and on this there was an Elderly Man that had been caring for a longterm sick wife and after she died his Mother had a stroke so for next 5 years looked after her until she died in hospital and up till then his Mother been getting HP and CTB - on finding himself alone contacted Council re Claiming HB and CTB in same house and was told didnt qualify - He saw advert on TV re Age UK Help and contacted them - they sorted and found he was due a large sum CTB backdated and not sure how much HB - made masses of difference and peace of mind.

 

I have found through my Friend/Neighbour that our local Council Benefits and CT Offices dont know their own Rules and most Interviews have to be done on a phone to a distant County Office - For someone that doesnt fully understand information face to face is a nightmare but they dont care, and he doesnt trust them now they have given him so much wrong info.

 

I have decided to take him to our local Age UK (he is over 50 ) because I feel sure he will get the caring help he needs face to face and I will be there with his Authority because I know all about his money problems and can tell what I am doing to sort his PPI reclaim which I am dealing with on his behalf. The Bank have been having him over for 5 years until I enlightened him.

 

He has just got a 16+ hours job and will need advice re the transition from JSA to Job Pay and I read somewhere he could get a small sub grant but he doesnt trust the usual Offices or Maximus to give acurate info. Does anyone know about this grant to help me find out about it.

[flumps1976]

Do you mean the Job Grant?

If yes then have a look at this link.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/BenefitsTaxCreditsAndOtherSupport/Employedorlookingforwork/DG_10013908

[silv.surfer]

Thanks flumps1976

 

A very helpful link answered most of my questions - couldnt use the calcutator re Tax Credits because he is working 18 hours but I dont know pay rate - he will be paid fortnightly at least at start so I think he will have a bit more in his hand instead of what he thought being left with only a Fiver !!! It looks that he will have Extended HP and CT and Job Grant but will only get over 50 Extra until April (just his luck again ) I will be going to Bank with him Wed to Sort them out !!! and will tell him all this new info. Thanks on his behalf

 

He has to walk 2 miles to job - 8 hour shift on feet - 2 miles home - not bad for an ahsmatic

 

P.S. Anyone want a couple of hours work clearing up the blood and guts after I have finished with a certain nasty member of the Bank Staff Wed

[means2anend]

A question was raised in Live Business Questions in the Commons yesterday to Chris Grayling by an opposition MP trhat why is it that up till now all of the providers have not published ANYTHING in relation to results and progress on the WORK PROGRAMME...well just goes to show you that there appears to be as of yet NO TRANSPARENCY..but Grayling says that this will be looked at and changed if necessary

[silv.surfer]

Another question regarding the link provided by flumps1976 - It is possible my Friend/Neighbour might not be able to claim most things even though he has been out of work mostly since late 2007 - problem is the 5 weeks before Xmas he was sent to a Job by a Temp. Agency that was supposed to be until Xmas and was told to sign off but after only 2 nights = 16 hours the Company told the Agency that they had too many people so last in first out, so signed back on pointing out that it was only 16 hours and he wouldnt havent have signed off if he had known.

 

As it says in the Extended BH and CT and Job Start Grant bits - he has to be on JSA for 26 weeks continuously - it was the Temp Agency that was at fault not him but he might have to pay the price of not getting anything. Might they overlook it as it was only 16 hours in fact.

 

Any idea where he stands regarding this problem. I think he should contact the Temp. Agency and point out the big problems they have caused him, and tell them to contact JCP or who ever and tell them it was the Agencys fault for his problem.

[means2anend]

Have look here especially section 19..if he is not caught by these then he may well have an argument

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1995/18/section/19

 

I think you may be interested that in subsection 7 he may not be TREATED as having left voluntarily....

 

as for subsection 8 above

 

.....the prescriptions made by order can be found here..known as 'The Regulations'...The Secretary of State is responsible will have prescribed circumstances in which he may still be entitled to JSA by not neing deemed to have left voluntarily

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/207/contents/made

 

I think he ought to get a letter from the temps explaining that he had to leave involuntarily due to lack of placement or vacancies.

 

rgds

m2ae

Edited January 26, 2012 by means2anend

[means2anend]

And here is the meaning of s139(1) of Employments Rights Act 1996 for the purposes of

Section 19 subsection 7 JSA 1995

 

 

139 Redundancy.

 

(1)For the purposes of this Act an employee who is dismissed shall be taken to be dismissed by reason of redundancy[/i] if the dismissal is wholly or mainly attributable to—

(a)the fact that his employer has ceased or intends to cease—

(i)to carry on the business for the purposes of which the employee was employed by him, or

(ii)to carry on that business in the place where the employee was so employed, or

(b)the fact that the requirements of that business—

(i)for employees to carry out work of a particular kind, or

(ii)for employees to carry out work of a particular kind in the place where the employee was employed by the employer,have ceased or diminished or are expected to cease or diminish.

(2)For the purposes of subsection (1) the business of the employer together with the business or businesses of his associated employers shall be treated as one (unless either of the conditions specified in paragraphs (a) and (b) of that subsection would be satisfied without so treating them).

 

(3.....

 

(4)Where—

(a)the contract under which a person is employed is treated by section 136(5) as terminated by his employer by reason of an act or event, and

(b)the employee’s contract is not renewed and he is not re-engaged under a new contract of employment,he shall be taken for the purposes of this Act to be dismissed by reason of redundancy if the circumstances in which his contract is not renewed, and he is not re-engaged, are wholly or mainly attributable to either of the facts stated in paragraphs (a) and (b) of subsection (1).

 

(5)In its application to a case within subsection (4), paragraph (a)(i) of subsection (1) has effect as if the reference in that subsection to the employer included a reference to any person to whom, in consequence of the act or event, power to dispose of the business has passed.

 

(6)In subsection (1) “cease” and “diminish” mean cease and diminish either permanently or temporarily and for whatever reason.

Edited January 26, 2012 by means2anend

[means2anend]

So your freind/neighbour may indeed have a case when quoting s19(7) of JSA 1995 and s139(1) or alternatively139 (4) Employments Rights Act 1996

 

in the above the phrase..*or are expected to cease or diminish. is critical

 

Hope that helps

 

m2ae

Edited January 26, 2012 by means2anend

[means2anend]

The sections have to be 'stretched...what I mean is that although there was not a diminishing of employees....though by taking him on there may have been a diminishing of work and therefore there was not enough business in order to continue with his employment..when looked at in this light he may have an escape route and be treated for JSA purposes as having not left voluntarily but was made redundant (which WOULD entitle him to JSA without having to wait 26 weeks)

 

Section 139(1) is also wide enough to appear to afford the definition of redundancy to agency workers without contracts (as well as those with contracts)... '...as there is no mention of a contract in that section as opposed to section 4 which does...

Edited January 26, 2012 by means2anend

[silv.surfer]

Thanks means2anend

 

I found the links a bit daunting - I noted your point about getting the Temp Agency to write to Him or the JCP ? and send it to him incase they word it wrong and he Hands it to JCP -perhaps apologising that the Temp. Agancy had made a mistake in sending him to Xxxxxxxxx Ltd and having to withdraw him because there was not enough work for the last 2 people the Agency had sent, and that the Agency told him to Sign-off, and that he would be paid for the 2 nights /16 hours worked. How is that for wording - This was not from the WP it was an unrelated Local Temp Agency that he had Enrolled on - so he didnt refuse anything on the WP. just signed-off when the Temp Agency told him - Shouldnt have as it turned out only 16 hours, which should have been 5 weeks.

 

I will speak to him Sunday to find out what the latest he has heard. I may then phone the Citz.Adv.Bur Mon for appt. if his news not good.

 

I read on another Forum that Contact can be made to the 'Decsision Makers ' at JCP ? they are the ones that make the final decision about what happens in each unusual case, apparently They are quite Human. He doesnt want to get JSA back just his Entitlement for Run-on of HB CT Over 50 Extended HB CT and Job Start Grant. So that his error sign-off wont count against him.

 

The prospects with this Job he found himself that he started Thurs last week are excellant - They are very pleased with him because he already has 7 years Warehousing experience and he loves the Job - just a killer walking 2 miles there and 2 miles home - I told him to ask others about transport when he can afford Bus Fares - It is a huge Ind. Estate and all the Workers other that car owners cant all be walking to Work.

 

I will read the Links again and print your 2 explaining posts.

 

Thanks on his behalf for all your efforts Brilliant !!! and I will report back after I speak to him on Sunday

 

:-D:-D

Edited January 27, 2012 by silv.surfer
added paragraph

[Vevovincere]

When I find employment I will just go down to the Job Centre and tell them I want off Job Seekers Allowance because I have had enough of being on benefits, I won't mention that I have a job, don't have to. When the Job Seekers agreement is cancelled so is Ingeus (or Injurious as I like to call them) so they don't get paid. Like everyone on here, they have been no help, I have had 4 appointments now each lasting 15 mins...they just process everyone.

[means2anend]

Thanks means2anend

 

I found the links a bit daunting - I noted your point about getting the Temp Agency to write to Him or the JCP ? and send it to him incase they word it wrong and he Hands it to JCP -perhaps apologising that the Temp. Agancy had made a mistake in sending him to Xxxxxxxxx Ltd and having to withdraw him because there was not enough work for the last 2 people the Agency had sent, and that the Agency told him to Sign-off, and that he would be paid for the 2 nights /16 hours worked. How is that for wording - This was not from the WP it was an unrelated Local Temp Agency that he had Enrolled on - so he didnt refuse anything on the WP. just signed-off when the Temp Agency told him - Shouldnt have as it turned out only 16 hours, which should have been 5 weeks.

 

I will speak to him Sunday to find out what the latest he has heard. I may then phone the Citz.Adv.Bur Mon for appt. if his news not good.

 

I read on another Forum that Contact can be made to the 'Decsision Makers ' at JCP ? they are the ones that make the final decision about what happens in each unusual case, apparently They are quite Human. He doesnt want to get JSA back just his Entitlement for Run-on of HB CT Over 50 Extended HB CT and Job Start Grant. So that his error sign-off wont count against him.

 

The prospects with this Job he found himself that he started Thurs last week are excellant - They are very pleased with him because he already has 7 years Warehousing experience and he loves the Job - just a killer walking 2 miles there and 2 miles home - I told him to ask others about transport when he can afford Bus Fares - It is a huge Ind. Estate and all the Workers other that car owners cant all be walking to Work.

 

I will read the Links again and print your 2 explaining posts.

 

Thanks on his behalf for all your efforts Brilliant !!! and I will report back after I speak to him on Sunday

 

:-D:-D

 

Oh..in that case it is much simpler...if the fact that he has to wait for JSA for 26 weeks is not the issue..which the above argument in law is what he would then have used...he merely needs a letter (evidence) from the relevant temp agency and forwarded to Decision Maker at JCP

 

As he found the job HIMSELF If he needs a job grant or any help with financial things connected to his employment... go direct to this link thus avoiding any contact with those nasty work programme providers.

 

.http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Jobseekers/LookingForWork/index.htm

 

He can use the search box at top right hand to key in words such as 'job grant'...'benefits'..'.job allowance'...etc

 

rgds

m2ae

Edited January 28, 2012 by means2anend

[flumps1976]

If your friend did actually work 16 hours then yes the claim would have been closed correctly.

The payment of the run on for HB and Ctb and even the job grant would be initially disallowed on the basis that the claim was not continously claimed/received (due to the 16 hours work) he could then write and ask a Decision Maker at the Benefits Processing Centre to consider the payments due to the circumstances which he should list, the decision is nothing to do with JCP about the payment of job grants etc.

If there is entitlement it is paid/awarded automatically via the JSAPs system.

 

If you don't want the WP providers to contact employers but still need the payment of Job Grant etc, you don't have to declare the name of the company that you will start with just that you will expecting to work for 5 weeks or more. Also tell your WP provider/adviser that you will be changing your mobile so they may as well delete you contact numbers and that you will update the new number when yuou have it but then forget to do that!

[silv.surfer]

Thanks means2anend and flumps1976 :-)

 

It is the 16 hours and being told to sign-off by the Temp Agency that I think might be the problem because all of these Benefits and Start Grant etc. have to be 26 weeks continuous JSA and if they just look at his Screen it will show signed-off end Nov not 26 weeks, that is where his problems might lay.

 

I wont see him until Sunday so dont know any info yet, but even if everything is going OK with Extended HB etc and Job Start I will insist he/I phone the Temp Agency on Monday and get a letter from them confirming their cause of the state of affairs - you never know it might come in useful sometime in the future even if not needed now.

 

I also have read somewhere that Working Tax Credits for Low Pay will be increasing from over 16 hours to minimum 26 hours in April does this apply to Current receiving Claims or to New Claims after April - also Age Over 50 Extended Benefits will be stopped in April again is this New Claims after April or will current Claims not be paid after April - this would have been paid for 12 months under Current Claims Rules.

 

He probably has already told WP that he has a Job - he tends to be very gullible and trys to do the right thing that is why he keeps getting caught out and taken for a ride - he is still going in there 1 day a week looking for Fulltime Jobs using their system

 

Thanks again both of you - I will update with all news Sunday pm

[Nystagmite]

I also have read somewhere that Working Tax Credits for Low Pay will be increasing from over 16 hours to minimum 26 hours in April

 

It'll increase from 16 to 24 for parents. (not sure if this is lone parents - but it's definitely for couples)