Together Property Management - Unnecessary Works and High Bill

[Punk Rock Loser]

Since purchasing our flat in December 2019 we’ve already paid £12,000 for “maintenance works” for the building - this is a Victorian conversion flat with 4 flats in the building. This was the price of a new carpet and paint in the communal hallway.

 

Yesterday I received an email from the property management company quoting £45,000 excluding VAT for external works of the building.

 

The vagueness of the breakdown of the costs terrify me - “£10,000 for decoration” The list of works are unbelievable and unnecessary.

This company are complete crooks. I’m unable to find any loop holes to refuse to pay or fight as they’re extremely clever.

 

The company is based in Jersey and they’ve served us with the section 20. They’re demanding the money by December even though the works will not have taken place by then. The money they’re asking for is unrealistic, the cost of living is hard all ready but to ask for this money in a one off payment before the works have even taken place. We simply cannot afford to pay this.

 

Can anyone help with advice?

This is our first property we have bought and it feels like such a grey area with property management companies when I’ve been trying to find help and guidance of what to do.

 

I’ve reread all the documents our solicitor sent across when we purchased the flat and there is nothing to this scale - just ground rent.

 

I’d be extremely grateful for any advice or guidance.

[honeybee13]

Hello, welcome to CAG.

 

I've moved you to the appropriate forum for advice on this. Site team @stu007 is very good on this kind of stuff, he usually around later on. Other people should be along to comment over the course of the day.

 

One question from me: Are you fighting this on your own or are you talking to the other flat owners in your block?

 

Best, HB

[Punk Rock Loser]

Morning HB,

Thanks so much for your quick response and pointing me in the right direction! It’s my first time using this forum.

 

We’re currently reaching out to the other owners (two of which are renting out their flats) and we spoke to our downstairs neighbour last night who mentioned 5 years ago similar works took place by a different property management company.

 

Just adding some new information to this post  in case it changes the advice.

 

I’ve just received confirmation that it was in fact the same property management company that carried out the same works 5 years previous and billed the leaseholders the same amount for external repair. 

[honeybee13]

Do you much paperwork on this, like from your solicitor when you bought? It sounds odd that the same work needs doing again so soon.

 

People like stu will probably know how to get written information from them.

 

HB

[Punk Rock Loser]

The only documents the solicitor sent across were invoices for ground rent and services charges up to 2017 which have averaged around an annual payment of £2,000.

 

No documents or records of previous works.

[The GodMother]

I agree with Honeybee.

something seems odd especially when it needs doing so soon. Where do you live and what is the work break down and costs breakdown. 

 

[stu007]

Hi

 

Sorry for the delay in getting to you.

 

What does your Leasehold Agreement state about any works like this being carried out? (you need to have a good read of all the clauses in your Leasehold Agreement)

 

Were the Leaseholders given notification/consulted on these proposed works?

 

Have you asked the Managing Agent how many quotes they got for these proposed works before they decide on the specific contractor to carry out these works and who the contractor is? (if not write and ask)

 

Have you asked the Managing Agent why these specific works are now required when these exact same works were carried out 5 years previous and should be to a standards to last more than 5 years and who inspected these same works caried out 5 years previous costing the exact same amount you are asking leaseholders again?

 

You wish to view the quotes that the Managing Agent has obtained for the works requiring a cost of £45,000 or to be provided with copies of these quotes and the contractors name decides to carry out these works?

 

I require clarification when I can view have copies of the Service Charge Accounts for my Property?

 

Why has the Managing Agent not offered a Payment Plan to those Leaseholders affect by such a high cost for these works of £45,000?

 

Why have these cost of £45.000 for works needing carried out to this building now came to light as due to the high costs for these works unless these were an emergency it give the impression that the Managing Agent has not been looking after the building as required and carrying out the required inspections to maintain the property to let these costs get so high which I need full clarification on as it is each leaseholder being charges £45,000?

 

a) why have these exact same works for the same amount not been chased by you the Managing Agent of the previous contractor you employed to carry out these works as these works should last beyond 5 years?

 

b) why have you the Managing Agent not went via the Insurance Company to chase the previous Contractor Employed for these exact same works at the exact same cost as they again should last more than 5 years

 

c) I require clarification/copies of who you employed that stated these works were required and a breakdown of exactly what each of the works entail

 

I require clarification on the contact details of the Freeholder of the Property.

 

 

[Mr Bates]

Hi

 

I’m in the same position. I’m about to refer to the courts. Can we talk direct somehow so I can explain?

[honeybee13]

Hello, welcome to CAG.

 

All our advice is offered on the public forum, it's how we operate. If you start a new topic of your own, we'll advise.

 

HB

[stu007]

Hi

 

@ Mr Bates

I have to agree with the above post as all our advice is free it is best is you start your own New Topic so you don't interfere with this OPs Topic and tell us from start till now what has happened to get the advice you require.

 

 

[Punk Rock Loser]

Hi @stu007

 

Thank you so much for taking the time to advise. With your input we’ve submitted our rejection of works submitted by the surveyor with your points.

 

When we purchased the property there was no mention of these works - only “external redecoration works” which were to take place in 2022. Reviewing the breakdown from the surveyor he has quoted £10,000 for redecoration. However, the breakdown of the £45,000 includes works to the fabric of the building.

 

We’ve requested accounts and receipts for the previous years and what they actually spend our yearly service charge on as there appears to be no reserve fund.

 

thank you again for your advice.

@Mr Bates sorry to hear this. Is it the same property management company? 

[stu007]

Hi

 

You are more than welcome.

 

Something else to consider is to send Together Property Management a Subject Access Request (SAR) asking for 'ALL DATA' that simple phrase covers whatever format they hold your data in whether it be emails, written, recorded phone calls etc. they then have 30 Calendar Days to respond and that time limit only starts once they have acknowledged your SAR Request. A SAR is now free so no cost involved

 

Couple of further Questions:

 

1. How old is the Building?

2. Does the Building have Secured Door Entry?

3. Does the Building its own Caretaker?

4. Does the Building have a Lift? (is so how may lifts)

5. Does your Building have CCTV? (if it does then ask Together Property Management for the details of the Data Controller for the CCTV)

6. When was the last Fire Safety Inspection carried out for the Building? (if you are unaware then ask Together Property Management that)

7. Who is the Insurer for the Building? (if you are unaware of this then ask Together Property Management that and for a copy of the Insurance details) remember this if for the Building it is not for your own Property which you require your own insurance for.

 

 

If there are any other Leaseholders within the building I would pass on this information to them even better get them to come to CAG and start there own Topic on this matter as the more the better as this is a public forum anyone looking at Together Property Management will see these on any internet search.

 

[Tyke97]

Hi Everyone,

 

Some of you might like to take a look at the following article, particularly the 'comments' section towards the end?

 

For the record Southern Land Securities were incorporated on 30 Nov1993, the very same date/year that their managing agent (Hamilton King) was also formed. 

 

Consequently there never was nor ever has been any interest in Hamilton King acting on anything other than their parent company's interests. So what better than a nice, new name (Together Property) to get 'customers' back on line?

 

 Property Hawk

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Punk Rock Loser]

Hi Tyke97,

 

Wow. This is VERY insightful. Thanks so much for sending across, will be reading through this and hopefully I’ll be able to reach out to others who have had to deal with together property. However, it’s very concerning to read all this - looks like this will be a yearly on going battle until we sell our flat. Sooner than we hoped  

 

Thanks again!

[stu007]

HI

@Tyke97 many thanks for pointing that out as it is a very interesting read but it is just a shame that the person did not provide any website links to link all these different companies. It isn't until as you pointed out when you read the comments section and do some research that they all link together.

 

So many thanks for that information as it will be so useful to others.

 

Lets start with the research thanks to the link provided by Tyke97: 

 

Landlords of freehold companies and their associated management companies are money grabbing beasts

WWW.PROPERTYHAWK.CO.UK

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Landlords of freehold companies and their associated management companies are money grabbing beasts, outside of regulation.

 

This is a web that does involve the Taube Family and the list of companies is long as to how they have setup this.

 

Firstly we have Hamilton King Management Limited, Company Number 02876669, which was Dissolved on 19th December 2019 and the Director was Barrie Jonathan Taube. (have a good look at the People part and go down the list and you will see family names)

 

HAMILTON KING MANAGEMENT LIMITED overview - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

FIND-AND-UPDATE.COMPANY-INFORMATION.SERVICE.GOV.UK

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HAMILTON KING MANAGEMENT LIMITED - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history...

 

 

Next we have UK Real Estate Holding Ltd, Company Number 12727486, Company Status Active, Director is Barrie Jonathan Taube
(have a good look at the People part and go down the list and you will see family names)

 

UK REAL ESTATE HOLDINGS LTD overview - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

FIND-AND-UPDATE.COMPANY-INFORMATION.SERVICE.GOV.UK

---

UK REAL ESTATE HOLDINGS LTD - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history...

 

 

Next we have Southern Land Securities Limited, Company Number 02876386, Company Status Active, Director is Ruth Diane Taube
(have a good look at the People part and go down the list and you will see family names)

 

SOUTHERN LAND SECURITIES LIMITED overview - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

FIND-AND-UPDATE.COMPANY-INFORMATION.SERVICE.GOV.UK

---

SOUTHERN LAND SECURITIES LIMITED - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history...

 

 

Now on the Law Society Website you will notice that the above Southern Land Securities Limited is NOT an SRA-regulated law practice.

 

SOUTHERN LAND SECURITIES - The Law Society

SOLICITORS.LAWSOCIETY.ORG.UK

 

 

Now we have Together Property Management Limited, Company Number FC033621, Company Status Active, Director Fairway Group Secretaries Limited. (note look at the Peoples link and click on Fairway Group Secretaries and who runs them its Together Property Management Limited)

 

TOGETHER PROPERTY MANAGEMENT LIMITED overview - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

FIND-AND-UPDATE.COMPANY-INFORMATION.SERVICE.GOV.UK

---

TOGETHER PROPERTY MANAGEMENT LIMITED - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history...

 

 

FAIRWAY GROUP SECRETARIES LIMITED personal appointments - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

FIND-AND-UPDATE.COMPANY-INFORMATION.SERVICE.GOV.UK

---

Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges...

 

Information Commissioners Office Registration (ICO) for Together Property Management Limited. Registration Number ZA206138 (note on the link that the address is wrong as they haven't updated it with the ICO)

 

Information Commissioners - Data protection register - entry details

ICO.ORG.UK

 

Together Property Management Website. (go down the webpage and have a good read of there company details and I quote "Together Property Management Limited, registered in England & Wales. registration number: BR 018708. The company is a Private Limited Liability Company incorporated in Jersey. Registered with the Financial Services Commission, registration number: 120846.")

 

Together Property Management

TOGETHERPROPERTY.CO.UK

 

What is wrong with the above is there England & Wales registration of BR 018708 does not exist on Companies House there actual Company Number is in the Companies House link I have posted above. (so why is there actual website displaying the incorrect number???)

 

Jersey Register for Together Property Management.

 

Entity

WWW.JERSEYFSC.ORG

---

registry

 

 

So then look at this news article from the Express from 2019:

 

Hope for LEASEHOLDERS standing firm in £120,000 repairs shock row | The Crusader | Finance | Express.co.uk

WWW.EXPRESS.CO.UK

---

A SPIRIT of conciliation now hovers over a block of leasehold flats where until last week the residents had been extremely worried about the upgrade...

 

 

It then seems that the actual Freeholder for Properties is Southern Land Securities Limited and the other Companies are acting as the Agenst on there behalf to Manage Properties but they are all linked back. 

 

 

[Punk Rock Loser]

Thank you so much again Stu007.

 

Having all these associated links and points about the Taube Family in one place and online will hopefully help others in the same situation, it’s really opened my eyes to what we are dealing with here. 

 

Interesting point about the company numbers - is this something I can act upon?

 

Fraud: what we can and can’t do

COMPANIESHOUSE.BLOG.GOV.UK

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News and updates from Companies House

I’ve reached out to this charity

 

https://www.leaseholdknowledge.com/contact/
 

I’m hoping someone who has taken Together Property / Hamilton King/ Southern Land Securities to a tribunal reaches out.

 

To confirm - our landlord is Southern Land securities (The Taube Family)

 

This is the surveyor they’ve used (Lewis Berkeley) would be interesting if they were also connected to Taube Family.

 

Home / Lewis Berkeley - Proactive Property Advice

WWW.LEWISBERKELEY.CO.UK

 

[Mr Bates]

Together Property Management are the management company for a conversation flat I own. This is the second time they have decided that “ major works” are required even though repairs are supposed to be done as required and only external decoration is done every 5/6 years. Cost £13000 per flat.

 

Basically, as has already been said, the company is owned by Southern Land Securities based in Manchester with the accounts office of TPM being a P.O. Box in Altringham. What a coincidence! 
 

They are monetising the freehold. They employ a survey to find as much wrong with the building- this means full renovation to  a new building. Something we are not liable for. They mark up the survey or take a large commission. We had our own survey done around £1000 , they charged £7000. They then employ renovation company and presumably take another cut. They also charge a commission to manage the works. So the higher the value of the works the more money they make. 
 

Im now referring it to 1st  Tier Property Tribunal .

[Tyke97]

Hi again folks,

I am dropping a line to the excellent (personal finance) journalist, Emma Lunn. Emma herself has had the dubious 'honour' of having to deal with Southern Land Securities (SLS) and Hamilton King Management (HKM) on a personal level. You  can read her story below and although its now some time ago it just shows you how long these people have been getting away with it for. 

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2012/jul/06/unregulated-admin-fees-hit-leaseholders?CMP=gu_com

 

Emma please would you take a look at this thread and give us your opinion on it?

On the other hand, if you never want to hear their names again who can blame you?!

Thank you.

 

 

[stu007]

Hi

 

You are more than welcome for the links shown about how Together Management.

 

Now as for Lewis Berkeley who they got to do the Survey I can't find a link to the Taube Family but that doesn't say there isn't a link as it could be that they may and I only say may use this company to Survey other Buildings so it would be great is anyone else affecting in the same way who knows who carried out the Survey for there Building could let us know if it was this same company.

 

As for Lewis Berkeley well here we go:

 

Lewis Berkeley website:

(strange that they have no privacy policy on that website but other links will explains)

 

Home / Lewis Berkeley - Proactive Property Advice

WWW.LEWISBERKELEY.CO.UK

 

Lewis Berkeley Limited, Registration Number 03749943, Company status Active, 92-94 BANNER STREET MANAGEMENT COMPANY LIMITED (09349389)  (note is is a Registration Number and NOT a Company Number also make sure and click on the Address link)

 

LEWIS BERKELEY LTD personal appointments - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

FIND-AND-UPDATE.COMPANY-INFORMATION.SERVICE.GOV.UK

---

Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges...

 

On clicking on the Address link from above Directors are Anthony Stuart Austin, Raymond Irvine Ormiston and Lewis Berkeley Ltd

(on the link below make sure and have a look at People)

 

92-94 BANNER STREET MANAGEMENT COMPANY LIMITED overview - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

FIND-AND-UPDATE.COMPANY-INFORMATION.SERVICE.GOV.UK

---

92-94 BANNER STREET MANAGEMENT COMPANY LIMITED - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address...

Then we also have Lewis Berkeley Property Limited, Company Number 13797009

(make sure and have a look at the People in the link below)

 

LEWIS BERKELEY PROPERTY LIMITED overview - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

FIND-AND-UPDATE.COMPANY-INFORMATION.SERVICE.GOV.UK

---

LEWIS BERKELEY PROPERTY LIMITED - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history...

 

[Punk Rock Loser]

Mr Bates - thank you for your insight. Would you recommend we get our own surveyor? Did that make a difference to TPM? At the moment 3 out of 4 of us in the building have written a letter rejecting ALL works. Do you think that’s enough for the first stage? We’re yet to receive a response from TPM (assuming they’ll take the full 30 days to respond).

 

What has been your process to get to the point of the Tribunal?

 

When were these works to take place?

 

Is everyone in your building in agreement against the works?

 

Who was the surveyor TPM used?

 

Tyke97 thank you for sending this across. Like you mention, it would be great to hear the outcome and opinion of Emma’s story.

 

Stu007 thank you for the links again! I was just curious about Lewis Berkeley as it seems odd that that a company would find this much “work” doing to the building. Mr Bates was it the same surveyor? Wondering as like you mentioned, your own surveyor didn’t quote a fraction of the amount TPM surveyor has.

 

 

[stu007]

Hi

 

I would also suggest having a wee chat with the Councils Private Landlords Dept and explaining to them of these cost that Together are asking
with no offer of a payment plan nor a reason for such high costs which you are trying to get answers to.

 

I also can't suggest that you get your own survey done but if you did decide to go down that route I would speak with the others affected as you are
to basically get on independent surveyor to carry out the inspection and you split the bill/cost between the 4 of you and each of you get a copy of that report to hit Together with. The important thing when choosing a Independent Surveyor is to make sure they are RICS Compliant this is very important.

 

https://www.rics.org/uk/

 

[The GodMother]

I know you might not be a expert but have you looked round the building at these works to see if they need doing,  eg the security door broken and needs new keypad can you video if the security door is broken and needs a new keypad or is broken in any way eg a random number being typed in and it not letting you in then your actual number and it letting you in. 

I know its not always easy to see but if they are claiming for work that dont need doing then it does raise suspicions
 

Also did your neighbour remember who done the work last time. 

[Tyke97]

19 hours ago, stu007 said:

Hi

 

I would also suggest having a wee chat with the Councils Private Landlords Dept and explaining to them of these cost that Together are asking
with no offer of a payment plan nor a reason for such high costs which you are trying to get answers to.

 

I also can't suggest that you get your own survey done but if you did decide to go down that route I would speak with the others affected as you are
to basically get on independent surveyor to carry out the inspection and you split the bill/cost between the 4 of you and each of you get a copy of that report to hit Together with. The important thing when choosing a Independent Surveyor is to make sure they are RICS Compliant this is very important.

 

https://www.rics.org/uk/

 

Hi,

 

Well I can prove the (long-standing) business relationship between SLS/HK/TP and Lewis Berkeley. Way back in the summer of 2013 I wrote to Ray Ormiston of LB to express my concern about some of the companies he was inviting to tender for our major works bid. For example one of them was described as a market stall erector based in Slough. Yet another had a net worth that was less than the job itself was going to cost.  And they were among the better ones!

 

Value of tender (1993) £24,000+ Net Value of tenderer (Top Finish Ltd)- £697 (yes minus £697!)

 

Mr Ormiston's response to me (via Karen Young of HK) was quite telling. It was very defensive and at times quite ludicrous.  I pointed out that one of the tendering bids submitted wasn't even signed (despite a lot of money riding on it) Mr Ormiston tried  to fob me off with 'a technical issue' and he had spoken to the tenderer about it etc etc. Utter rubbish!

 

In the end Lewis Berkeley chose to go with the tenderer put forward by Hamilton King (would you believe?) despite admitting that they had never inspected any of their previous work!

 

Message from Ray Ormiston (Lewis Berkeley) to Karen Young (then Hamilton King)

 

Dear Karen

 

In response.

 

Top finish, Firstchoice and WDS are all contractor know to Lewis Berkeley and HK. They have completed numerous projects of this size for Lewis Berkeley acting as the CA, other Managerment Agents including Hamilton King and Southernland Securities. Our experience of them and that of our clients has always been very positive.

 

We had included them as they have the adequate skill and resources to carryout the specified works. They may not be the largest contractors but they are the correctly sized contractor for a project of this small value nature.

 

In terms of Top finish not signing the return, the reason for this was they were having IT issues, as the MD sent this from aboard, he called me to discuss and the tender was accepted.

 

I can assure you WDS are not market stall electors, they are a relatively new ltd company's as previously they were sole traders, but that is not a reasons to exclude them, as far as I am concerned, their workmanship is excellent.

 

First choice, not sure what the problems is with there web site, but these are excellent, and considerate contractors.

 

In terms of Formation Managerment, these contractor were recommended by Hamilton King, we have not personally supervised their works previously, but all reports of them again was positive. I spoke with the MD, he explained the work they had recently completed, I considered them to be suitable, also they have done previous work for the head of surveying at HK, who suggested them and also advised they were very good.

 

All the pricing contractor meets our clients requirements, in terms of CIS registration, insurances and health and safety requirements.

 

As I say the contractor are suitable for this works and there size leads to a more competitive quote, rather than going to larger scale contractor who's overheads lead to higher costs.

 

I trust this assists and re assures the residents.

 

Kind regards

Ray

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[The GodMother]

Oh yes l am often sending bussiness emails and quotes while abroad. The last one l sent from my villa in the east while downing a nice cocktail. When in reality l was in my shed at home drinking cherries and berriea squash mixes with Lemonade. 

 

Does anyone else smell that and see that pig with wings or have l had.one to many lemonades. 

[stu007]

@Tyke97

 

Question reference your post#23

 

Could you clarify for us how you obtained that Message - Message from Ray Ormiston (Lewis Berkeley) to Karen Young (then Hamilton King)?