Ingeus

[Nystagmite]

She also deleted my referees, has done this twice, and have only realised why - might be intimidating for a potential employer to ask references from someone who has much higher status than them.

 

I had someone at working links advise me to remove my referees. It's to do with putting my CV online and their (referees) personal details.

[debt4get]

500,000 sanctioned for not taking jobs? I didn't think there where even that many jobs available. Or are they sanctioning 1000s for each job available; I can't beleive that many people are offered a job and all refuse to take it.

you can lose your benefit for lots of reasons with this lot...not turning up on time...not going on their mickey mouse courses...not filling in the forms they require in order for you to sign your life away....and a host of others..dont think for one moment it is about refusing to take a job....

[RebeccaPidgeon]

In reply to the above posts, I think they should make all of us dole **** sweep the streets for our dole money, we could all wear a high-vis vests with dole **** on the back like the community payback offenders have to, I'm sure that would keep all the taxpayers and do-gooders happy, and the pimps would get their well deserved income too, it wouldn't be any more humiliating than having to attend job searches and "courses" at their offices.

Keep smiling it makes them wonder what you're up to.

 

Now on a more sensible note I have been mandated to attend a Job action group, mock interview video, (I have attended one course with interview techniques not sure what the difference will be) they have asked me to attend dressed for a formal interview, during the job action group I will have "the oportunity to recieve advice guidance and informal training on effective job searching activities in a group environment" I do not like to be told how to dress, at 56 I can dress myself suitably when needed, I think they expect me to attend in a suit, wich I will not because I'll be arriving on my motorbike, so have an excuse for being clad in leather, It reads like they may be videoing the the mock interview, again I am going to refuse to have this done to me.

 

And of course I have been threatened with sanctions in my letter should I not attend, anyone else had any experience like this?

 

By the way I am waiting to hear from a prospective employer for my induction so I'm almost employed, (temporary job) I have not yet told Ingeus and I managed to get this job without their help.

In respect to any Mock Interview, perhaps the response should be that if you ever wanted to participate within such a thing, you would approach (say) a Professional Careers Advisor within the Graduate Careers Advisory Service.

 

Why not within Ingeus (or any other Welfare To Work Organisation) ? Because, all things being equal, the W2W Sector is at a lower point in the Economic Food Chain than Job Centre Plus, and therefore Administrative Clerks assigned (which you have to deal with) do not possess the capacity, qualifications or competence to analyse candidates let alone offer Professional Careers Advice.

 

But, if they persist with their intent to involve you within any Mock Interview, watched in awe by any Group, let alone be videotaped, you can simply enquire whether the Clerk presenting himself at Interview has ever been employed as a Professional Careers Advisor. If not, you can suggest that you may be minded to consider inviting the Clerk to attend a Real Interview, if Ingeus is able to ever arrange an interview for you.

 

Of course, if candidates wish to sanctify the belief of Administrative Clerks within a Welfare To Work organisation that they should consider themselves to be superior to any unemployed candidate, where they may subscribe to the Orthodox Belief that the unemployed candidate is the only reason why the candidate is unemployed (implicitly ignoring the employer control over the Recruitment Process), then that is their choice. However, isn't it more likely that the type of scenario which the candidate opens themselves up to is as insidious as Neuro Linguisting Programming.... and, if within the group session, other candidates are aggressive towards the candidate being interviewed, are they likely to be unemployed candidates, or simply Clerks employed by the W2W employer, intent with destroying the candidates ego, and to make them more pliable for auto-suggestion.

Edited July 2, 2012 by RebeccaPidgeon
Additional Information Submitted

[Nystagmite]

you can lose your benefit for lots of reasons with this lot...not turning up on time...not going on their mickey mouse courses...not filling in the forms they require in order for you to sign your life away....and a host of others..dont think for one moment it is about refusing to take a job....

 

Indeed. I've been threatened with a sanction for refusing to come in. I refused because they won't make reasonable adjustments.

 

I have now wrote an email to the manager, explaining everything that's happened. My adviser has been informed about this.

[count orlok]

Indeed. I've been threatened with a sanction for refusing to come in. I refused because they won't make reasonable adjustments.

 

I have now wrote an email to the manager, explaining everything that's happened. My adviser has been informed about this.

 

Surely that is not a case of rufusing to attend but of being unable to attend?

[Nystagmite]

Exactly. I have explained it's due to disability and not "I can't be bothered". They've accused me of lying about my disabilities - on the basis they weren't told from day 1. I developed one of them in February (it's normal for it to just come on like that) and didn't have a diagnosis for one until May.

 

GP did write a letter last week explaining my disabilities, one of the difficulties arising from it (can't be in the same room with loud noises / many conversations at once) and that I need reasonable adjustments.

 

I have also have a fit note for 4 stating I'm not fit for work.

[signmaker]

Nice reply Rebecca Pidgeon, I agree with what you have said but it's sometimes probably better for some to go along with these pimps and just tick the boxes, it saves rocking the boat, and depends on how much grief you want to cause these people and to yourself, sometimes you just think, Oh what the hell and just get on with it for an easy life, but yes they then get their way, this is the second mock interview that I have been sent on in three months, and the chappie who is taking this course is a patronising fellow who loves the power of sanction threatening, and has done everything, so I assume must be extremely qualified, I know that I could give this class as it is either powerpoint or handouts, and he loves talking about himself and the extensive careeer he has had. Oh and I think this may be a bit of revenge because I spoke to another advisor about my present one not doing her job properly.

[osdset]

and he loves talking about himself and the extensive careeer he has had.

 

So this individual rounds off his extensive career in the last port of call for failed used car salesmen.

[signmaker]

Tis a shame, such a come down,

but hey,he's got a job and we haven't .

[osdset]

but hey,he's got a job and we haven't .

 

I would rather be out of work than do that job, my working days are more or less over so thankfully I don't have to deal with WP and it's minions, though I did do a spell on FND a few years ago same cr4p different name.

[RebeccaPidgeon]

Nice reply Rebecca Pidgeon, I agree with what you have said but it's sometimes probably better for some to go along with these pimps and just tick the boxes, it saves rocking the boat, and depends on how much grief you want to cause these people and to yourself, sometimes you just think, Oh what the hell and just get on with it for an easy life, but yes they then get their way, this is the second mock interview that I have been sent on in three months, and the chappie who is taking this course is a patronising fellow who loves the power of sanction threatening, and has done everything, so I assume must be extremely qualified, I know that I could give this class as it is either powerpoint or handouts, and he loves talking about himself and the extensive careeer he has had. Oh and I think this may be a bit of revenge because I spoke to another advisor about my present one not doing her job properly.

I would suspect that if the chap taking the course was any good then he would be actively employed within the Wealth Creating Sector, and not treading water as a mere Administrative Clerk, possibly massaging their ego through the Power Games that they play with the unemployed who may be intimidated by the environment.

 

I think for candidates assigned to something as insidious as the Work Programme, where the underlying belief of Administrative Clerks in dealing with candidates is that the only reason why any candidate is unemployed is down to the candidate, a key issue to be addressed by each candidate is one of Due Diligence - listen to the options being made available, discuss the options, rationalise them and offer an appropriate response. If the Clerk gets uppity because they cannot convince you, this may even extend in the case of A4E, to threatening to send a candidate back to Job Centre Plus if they dont sign the Data Protection Waiver during the first meeting, be aware of your rights, and never say no to anything. Or at least say "I will consider the opportunity and get back to you". If you simply say "No", you may open up yourself to a sanction, or a protracted period when you have been subject to a sanction, your entitlement to benefit is terminated, and the appeal process may take a matter of months.

 

In terms of dealing with staff in Ingeus, it may help to do research on the company. For example, during 2009, Deloitte provided a staffer to Chris Grayling when he was in opposition, declared at value in kind of about £27800 in the Register of Members Interests. In Oct 2010, Deloitte entered into a Joint Venture with Ingeus UK with the intent of bidding for the Work Programme Contracts, and after the DWP formally announced the bids open, Ingeus bid about 70% less than any other party.... and ended up with 23% of the contracts which commenced July 1 2011.

[Nystagmite]

I received an email today, telling me that I send a copy of my fit note. They will then said me a letter for a mandated telephone call. Given that I've signed off JSA, must I do this?

 

Also, given the issues I've had, can I change provider? I've had enough of being made out to be a liar.

[RebeccaPidgeon]

I received an email today, telling me that I send a copy of my fit note. They will then said me a letter for a mandated telephone call. Given that I've signed off JSA, must I do this?

 

Also, given the issues I've had, can I change provider? I've had enough of being made out to be a liar.

If you have signed off Job Seekers Allowance, then given that the Job Seekers Agreement is no longer in effect, it could be argued in a court of law if necessary that the only authority which Job Centre Plus possessed which mandated a candidate to be part of the Work Programme no longer exists.

 

From the outset of being assigned to the Work Programme, Job Centre Plus advise candidates that

"From today, to continue getting Job Seekers Allowance and/or National Insurance Credits, you must take part in the Work Programme...

:

:

You must take part in the Work Programme until you are told otherwise"

 

Of course, whereas there is a relationship between the candidate and Job Centre Plus (via the Job Seekers Agreement), and a Service Level Agreement within the Work Programme Provider and Job Centre Plus, there is no contractual relationship between the candidate and Work Programme Provider.

 

If, in future, you return to the Job Centre, and they assign you to the Work Programme, then it may be possible to negotiate an alternative Work Programme Provider within the area.

[Bakatcha]

If you're not receiving JSA or any other benefit there is little that they can do if you refuse to talk to them. I don't recall why you have signed off JSA but if it's because you have a job then even the threat of sanctioning NI credits is utterly meaningless since you will be paying NI via the payroll and don't need "credits". In other circumstances the sanctioning of futuire NI credits is also a pretty empty threat as it's very unlikely to make any significant difference to any future claim or entitlement.

 

I guess if you're looking to change provider then you are still drawing benefit of some description? If that's the case then you cannot just elect to change provider. Remember that you are the goods in this transaction and not a contractual party. It's like saying a tin of beans should have a say on which shelf it should be stacked!

I received an email today, telling me that I send a copy of my fit note. They will then said me a letter for a mandated telephone call. Given that I've signed off JSA, must I do this?

 

Also, given the issues I've had, can I change provider? I've had enough of being made out to be a liar.

Edited July 3, 2012 by Bakatcha

[debt4get]

I take it that if you have signed of JSA and are sending fit notes then are you now on ESA? if so you will probably have to talk to them

[flumps1976]

When you closed your claim at the JCP office to enable your claim for ESA the closure team are required to notify the providers in writing via for, WP07b, this is usually posted 2nd class and only when the head office for the work prgramme providers have received and actione the form will the local office to notified and contact should then cease until you need to make a rapid reclaim ,however as you are contracted to them for a period of 2 years then can still contact you at a prearranged date and time during that 2 year periodf to office support and guidance

[Nystagmite]

Thanks Flumps. Yes, am now on ESA. Partly due to the stress that has been caused by the work programme...

 

Signed off for a month and see how everything goes.

[speedfreek]

Thanks Flumps. Yes, am now on ESA. Partly due to the stress that has been caused by the work programme...

 

Signed off for a month and see how everything goes.

 

You ever get anywhere with any complaints?

 

I'd probably suggest that if you do go back - request a deferment from attending officially as well as the changes required until they actually make a proper and formal decision on what you are asking for. All backed by your doctor of course on a fit note.

 

I still think a few specific FOI requests and maybe enlist the help a charity who assist folks with your impairments in work for their take on it.

 

Remember your discrimination thread where I suggested you treat this from the being an employee angle as that's the DWP's view plus the legislation you are covered by?

[debt4get]

A4e failing miserably....

link here

http://www.channel4.com/news/exclusive-a4e-finds-jobs-for-3-5-per-cent-of-job-seekers

[Nystagmite]

I never got anywhere with my complaints. I have an email from my adviser's line manager who claimed that she only knows of one incident. There have been at least 3 relating to the same issue. The job centre were informed and weren't happy. I have a letter from my GP, which states all the diagnoses I have and the adjustment I need and an explanation of why and what it means if I don't get this adjustment. It also explains that they're waiting on a few bits from a few specialists. The letter says that if the adviser wants information about my medical problems, they're happy to provide it.

[reallymadwoman]

Anybody get the feeling we're all going to end up bouncing back and forth between ATOS and the work program people?

 

JSA claimants get so stressed by the actions of Ingeus and their ilk that their GP signs them off with stress so they claim ESA but are found fit for work by ATOS so get bounced straight back to the same provider so they can start all over again.

 

If the work program providers are incapable of dealing with anyone disabled, what's happening to all the people being chucked off ESA?

[Nystagmite]

I won't be that surprised if it happens. However, in my case, the work programme is only part of the reason why I was signed off. My disabilities do make it hard to work and the stress from the work programme has added to it.

[reallymadwoman]

This is partly what is so infuriating.

 

A valid criticism of incapacity benefit was that there was no help available to get off it and get back into work, so the one bit of the ESA program that should be welcomed is this extra help. However, it seems that the work program providers, who are also supposed to be dealing with all these people in the WRAG eventually as well as everyone being chucked off incapacity benefit, just can't be bothered with the extra effort when in a lot of cases they can't get jobs for people without disabilities. The whole point is that some people do need extra help because they've got a few enormous hurdles to cross and that's without a recession making jobs few and far between for everyone.

 

I seem to remember reading that Professor Harrington wanted the DWP to track what happens to people found fit for work. That should make interesting reading, shouldn't it?

[osdset]

just can't be bothered with the extra effort when in a lot of cases they can't get jobs for people without disabilities.

When faced with disability, long term sickness, and mental health issues, WP providers are like rabbits caught in the headlights, the providers do not possess the basic career advice skills to deal with mainstream job seekers, let alone anyone on WRAG.

 

Grayling continually repeats the mantra of "tailored individual help" when most have long since realised that the reality is far from the model.

 

The resources required in terms of time and finance to realistically help WRAG cases is an expenditure that WP is not prepared to undertake, they simply don't have the trained staff and at the end of the day there is no profit in it for them.

[RebeccaPidgeon]

When faced with disability, long term sickness, and mental health issues, WP providers are like rabbits caught in the headlights, the providers do not possess the basic career advice skills to deal with mainstream job seekers, let alone anyone on WRAG.

 

Grayling continually repeats the mantra of "tailored individual help" when most have long since realised that the reality is far from the model.

 

The resources required in terms of time and finance to realistically help WRAG cases is an expenditure that WP is not prepared to undertake, they simply don't have the trained staff and at the end of the day there is no profit in it for them.

Tailored Individual Help is entirely oxymoronic.... given that the scheme was set up using a "Black Box" approach. Unfortunately, the Administrative Clerks within the W2W Sector do not possess a basic level of competence to analyse the profile of candidates (even testing such as Myers Brigs would provide such information on the psychology of candidates and their aptitude for specific types of work), and if they have never been employed as Professional Careers Advisors before, and simply admit that they have been employed within a Recruitment Agency, are unlikely to be qualified to offer Professional Careers Advice.

 

Of course, if W2W Agencies could help, then immediately after the first meeting with a candidate, they would pick up a telephone, speak to a Recruitment Manager, aggressively promote the candidate to the employer, and arrange either a telephone interview or face to face interview then and there. They don't do this, and simply commend that candidates apply for jobs as per normal and spec themselves out to employers.

 

Absolutely clueless.

Edited July 4, 2012 by RebeccaPidgeon
grammar