Merseyrail - Feet on Seat Frame

[44millrd]

Hi all,

 

I am in a similar situation to purplegaily - I had removed my shoes and placed my feet in socks on a train seat, (in a carriage with only two other people in it) and I did not believe this action was 'interfering with the comfort and convenience of others'. I'm not so worried about the fine, am thinking of writing to explain the circumstances and pay the £50 up front. I'm much more worried that this will give rise to a permanent record which will come up on CRB checks etc. (without any of the mitigating circumstances) and might affect employment or bank/visa applications They've asked me to sign an official reprimand admitting the offence. It all feels very disproportionate, considering I think that people who travel without a valid ticket and are fined do not get it put on their permanent record in this way.

 

What a stressful situation this has been, I was in floods of tears at the end of being questioned by their enforcement officers.

[Wriggler7]

If you 'settle' without the case going to Court, the only record will be held by the 'prosecuting authority', it will not show on a CRB.

 

'Fare dodgers' also will have that type of record if they 'settle', but potentially a full CR if the case is heard in Court.

 

It often feels unfair to the person 'on the wrong end' of the paperwork, it may even be unfair, life is, but you are most certainly not being dealt with more harshly than a fare dodger.

[44millrd]

Thank you for clarifying this, I did not realise that fare dodgers on Merseyrail trains are treated the same, but I also know of cases where people have been fined by other rail operators for not having a valid ticket, and have only had to sign their name, no other details were taken (I believe), so it seems unlikely their records are being held anywhere.

 

I did ring the CRB and they seemed to think this reprimand would show up on an enhanced CRB.

[Stigy]

Thank you for clarifying this, I did not realise that fare dodgers on Merseyrail trains are treated the same, but I also know of cases where people have been fined by other rail operators for not having a valid ticket, and have only had to sign their name, no other details were taken (I believe), so it seems unlikely their records are being held anywhere.

 

I did ring the CRB and they seemed to think this reprimand would show up on an enhanced CRB.

If you pay a Penalty Fare up-front, you don't have to get details from the person as the matter is paid in full. However, I think staff should verify details anyway, as the person could be a serial fare evader, that being the case, a £20 PF wouldn't be appropriate and they need to visit the Magistrate!

 

CRB might have been confused by your use of the wording 'official reprimand'. If you're given an official reprimand by Police, it's a Caution, which will show up on an enhanced CRB check. This official reprimand is just held by the train operating company, and won't be shared with anyone. The worst it'll be is saved to their own computer system.

[Balt]

I am sure at least some people are aware of this from 2007 where a student girl was prosecuted for having her feet on ythe seat but was looked upon sympathetically by the court. If you search on the internet for it, it is very easy to find.

Edited January 22, 2011 by MARTIN3030
removing named individual

[ljp1234]

Just be state that you were unaware that putting your foot/feet on the frame of the seat would be deamed as inappropriate. State that your footwear was clean and that you made sure your foot/feet wasn't on the seat fabric (assuming they were, and assuming they weren't in that order ). State that you were not aware an offence had been committed, and that no signage was present. Also ask if CCTV was present, as this could back your version of events up. Also say that you apologise if the staff deemed your actions inappropriate.

 

Or you could pay them £50...

 

 

Thanks Stigy, will give the letter a go and let you all know. Just seems like inappropriate action, what a lovely Christmas present from Merseyrail...a fine and reprimand 4 days before Christmas !! Hope these poorly trained 'bully' enforcement officers can sleep at night!!

[Wriggler7]

Drifting a little from the 'legalities' of this, I think people need to consider several 'thoughts'.

 

Why does there need to be a sign that says 'dont put your feet on the seat'?

 

If a matter like this does get into Court (some do, some don't) the Court will not be interested on views about the staff that reported the matter. I have never met any Merseyrail staff, poorly trained or otherwise, but it is not their behaviour that is being questioned. If their training is poor enough to shine through in thir reports, it may become relevant, but any Court will be looking at your actions, not their's.

 

I have only seen one case like this where the defendant attended Court. The Magistrates were pretty forthright in their comments, and fined the young man £95.00 and costs of £95.00. My memory is failing, I think it must have been 5 or 6 years ago, I know it was Basildon Magistrates Court, strangely heard before the Licensing Bench.

[Old-CodJA]

I agree, that's why I posted this back in August

 

'It is what is known as a 'strict liability offence'. In other words, the rule says don't do it and if you do, a Court will have no hesitation in convicting an offender.'

 

I think it's just a matter of common decency not to put feet on seats.

 

If as an occasional visitor to your house I suddenly put my feet with shoes on a chair or it's frames, I guess you'd have something pretty scathing to say and quite rightly so.

 

I don't see what the difference is just because it's on a train.

[ljp1234]

Exactly, but would you be fined and given a reprimand that stays on your record...maybe just a warning not to do it again? But yes you are entitled to your opinion and i respect that

[SRPO]

Do it at my house & blood will flow!

[Old-CodJA]

I think that a rather strange question,

 

As a matter of common courtesy I wouldn't do it in your house, but as far as I know there isn't a BYELAW that directs me not to do so

 

However, there is an instruction, backed up by Byelaw that tells me not to do it on a train.

[Balt]

Following on from my previous posting on this thread.

 

Anyone searching the web for the case on the student girl who had her case looked on sympathetically by Chester Court. There is some misinfo in the press articles as the first letter of the 1st name of her solicitor should have been an 'E' instead of an 'I'. I contacted the same set of solicitors and was advised that the solicitor in question had passed away in late 2010. Further I was advised that from this death, the practice had been taken over by another firm. Further there was no residual knowledge of the merseyrail case with anyone else in the firm.

 

Without going into detail I felt very strongly that the feet on frame case against me was a nonsense. For example there was no notice in the carriage explaining that the frame is considered part of the seat. Regardless of this Merseyrail took what I read as a bullying approach in the follow up correspondence that they sent to me. There was no reference to the short comings on their side and they were insistent that I had committed an offence. Rather than accept this I engaged a solicitor with the intention of defending my position as to accept the reprimand would have meant that I had to accept I committed an offence. Under the circumstances I strongly felt that I had not committed an offence. The solicitor in question approached Merseyrail pointing out the short comings in their case against me. From this Merseyrail have dropped their proceedings against me. The solicitor bill has arrived, £108.

[Draconian]

Oh My Good God I missed this one didn’t I. Well I’ve heard it all now Court summonses for ‘Feet on Seat’ for once I’m lost for words but I will try how about sickening beyond belief that in 2011 these money grabbing parasite are sending people to British courts for ‘Feet on Seat’ .

What Kind of Man who is a ‘Man ‘would be party or work for a company who’s conduct is so Low and Draconian it beggars belief . Any Magistrate who would debase themselves with presiding over and indeed wasting public money on such matters needs the Feet of the British Public Up the seat of their Pants .

Do You Parasites who work for these companies know there are Young Men serving and Dieing for this country in Foreign lands and behind there backs in this once great Britain You Shame us with your Petty disgraceful abuse of power .

[Asterix]

Maybe, just maybe, the boys who are fighting, and sadly in some cases dieing, would like to be able to sit on a seat without getting their trousers dirty because someone has put their feet on it.

[Asterix]

I don't suppose that Draconian has ever walked across the grass at an army base and been spotted by the RSM. Standards of acceptble behaviour are explained in very great detail during basic training.

 

For someone who was 'lost for words', he managed to find a few misplaced ones.

[Draconian]

For the Record I am Ex Forces and a High % of My family now and of previous generations have been.

It would also be clear to any thinking person that I was Ardently Patriotic following comments on other threads . The discipline of Military life past or Present has no bearing On civilian life or indeed the conduct of a British Transport company who ‘serves the Public’ Treating your customers with such Harsh procedures is like cracking a Egg with a sledge hammer simply OTT and the only clear reason can be Revenue . A warning or fine if seats were damaged or stained maybe but this ‘summons ‘ nonsense has got to be exposed and stopped , what’s next No Old people in quiet Zone as their to Quite , No speaking on Platforms . GET REAL ENGLAND and wake up to injustice , lets be Harsh on those that deserve it and firm but fair on very petty small social misconduct

[Wriggler7]

One of the main differences between civilian and military discipline is that allegations regarding putting feet on train seats in Liverpool will be looked at by Magistrates who are neither on the payroll of or within the discipline structure of the railway.

 

Breaches of military law are dealt with by people who have a clear incentive to support the corporal who first raised the 252.

 

If it is 'wrong' or 'over the top' for Merseyrail to employ people to patrol railways to enforce what they deem to be 'good order', then in the first instance, we would see the Courts discharging offenders, and then subsequently 'letters from MPs' (Members of Parliament, not Military Policemen) to the Managing Director and the Dft.

 

I rather doubt that the direct revenue from enforcement covers the costs, although if figures are provided which show otherwise, I will happily stand corrected. Wher I suspect there will be a 'revenue' enhancement will be in a reduction of repair costs and an increase in passenger revenues due to a greater feeling of 'comfort' amongst the travelling public.

 

I am a rail enthusiast in the general meaning, but I will not use trains after about 7pm, because of the awful feeling and perception of 'threat'. From private discussions, I do not seem to be alone. I would be pleased to see some ex forces chaps employed to patrol my local railway, and improve the general feeling of 'wellbeing'. (By choice, ex Rocks and Ghurkas, but some donkey wallopers would also be good)

[honeybee13]

What are you so angry about, Draconian? And please don't be rude to me this time.

 

HB

[SRPO]

What are you so angry about, Draconian? And please don't be rude to me this time.

 

HB

 

Maybe his daily mail was late today....

[Wriggler7]

Guardian, more likely.

[Stigy]

Oh My Good God I missed this one didn’t I. Well I’ve heard it all now Court summonses for ‘Feet on Seat’ for once I’m lost for words but I will try how about sickening beyond belief that in 2011 these money grabbing parasite are sending people to British courts for ‘Feet on Seat’ .

What Kind of Man who is a ‘Man ‘would be party or work for a company who’s conduct is so Low and Draconian it beggars belief . Any Magistrate who would debase themselves with presiding over and indeed wasting public money on such matters needs the Feet of the British Public Up the seat of their Pants .

Do You Parasites who work for these companies know there are Young Men serving and Dieing for this country in Foreign lands and behind there backs in this once great Britain You Shame us with your Petty disgraceful abuse of power .

Here we go again. Please tell me how people dying for this country can be compared with upholding railway byelaws? Have you ever seen the marks that can't be removed from train seats after some idiot has redecorated them? Have you ever sat on a dirty train seat? I work in enforcing these Byelaws, and have seen on several occasions where people have left their muck on train seats. With regard to having feet on seats, I'll always offer words of advice first, unless the shoes in question were clearly dirty. If I walk through the carriage again and the same person has their feet on the seats (unless protected with newpaper or similar), they are reported. I don't think this is being unreasonable.

[Wriggler7]

And neither do I, Stigy. I think it is as much part of protecting the decent folk of this nook shotten isle of Albion as serving in the 3rd Foot & Mouth, lesser risks, of course, but all part of 'the same'. Incidentally, more than a few of the 'enforcers' are 'ex forces', including one dear old gent who proudly wears his Korea medal once a year on his station.

[honeybee13]

Guardian, more likely.

 

I had you down as a possible 'Grauniad' reader, Wriggler.

 

My best, HB

[Wriggler7]

Hansard, the London Gazette and Apiary Weekly.8)

[Draconian]

Here we go again. Please tell me how people dying for this country can be compared with upholding railway byelaws? Have you ever seen the marks that can't be removed from train seats after some idiot has redecorated them? Have you ever sat on a dirty train seat? I work in enforcing these Byelaws, and have seen on several occasions where people have left their muck on train seats. With regard to having feet on seats, I'll always offer words of advice first, unless the shoes in question were clearly dirty. If I walk through the carriage again and the same person has their feet on the seats (unless protected with newpaper or similar), they are reported. I don't think this is being unreasonable.

 

Pathetic . Small Minds , Small people .

No ones comparing , Just stating One Noble and One Petty PC Crap which shames us all .

Edited February 1, 2011 by Draconian