Merseyrail - Feet on Seat Frame

[aaran-j]

Yesterday I was on a Merseyrail train and I had my foot resting on the seat frame (a white metal bar), to the left of the seat opposite me. I was then approached by two officials wearing Merseyrail jackets (although they didn't tell me their names or offer any ID) who asked me to remove my feet and provide my ticket, which I did immediately. I was then asked if I was aware that I had broken a railway byelaw, I wasn't and I very quickly apologised. One of the officials then proceeded to caution me (at this point, I asked if I should have a solicitor present. I was told "No, you don't need a solicitor"), asked for my name and address, wrote down a description of me and asked me to sign something in his notebook. I was then told that I would be sent a letter within 3-4 weeks and that I may receive a court summons to appear before a magistrate.

 

It is the magistrate part that worries me the most though. I want to go to university after college and study nursing but a criminal record could severely jeopardize this. Is there anyway I can stop this from escalating before it gets out of hand? I now realise that I shouldn't have done what I did, but surely the threat of criminal prosecution is completely disproportionate?

[Guest Old_andrew2018]

You could send a PM asking some the experts who advise on the forum to look in on your thread, please remember to include a link.

From a purely personal perspective I think they are the bullying type that most railway companies can do without, with luck you might start the ball rolling to their eventual disciplinary, are there any witnesses.

 

Andy

[aaran-j]

You could send a PM asking some the experts who advise on the forum to look in on your thread, please remember to include a link.

From a purely personal perspective I think they are the bullying type that most railway companies can do without, with luck you might start the ball rolling to their eventual disciplinary, are there any witnesses.

 

Andy

 

Thank you for your reply.

 

Are there any members you could recommend? I'm new to this site so I'm rather unfamiliar with it. There were two passengers sitting next to me who witnessed the whole thing but I didn't have time to ask their names and contact details otherwise I would have missed my connecting train.

[RPI]

You could send a PM asking some the experts who advise on the forum to look in on your thread, please remember to include a link.

From a purely personal perspective I think they are the bullying type that most railway companies can do without, with luck you might start the ball rolling to their eventual disciplinary, are there any witnesses.

 

Andy

Merseyrail employ Byelaw enforcement officers to police such offences, you will probably find that they had head cameras and that the entire incident would have been recorded.

[aaran-j]

Merseyrail employ Byelaw enforcement officers to police such offences, you will probably find that they had head cameras and that the entire incident would have been recorded.

 

Unless they removed them before approaching me, I didn't see either officer with a camera.

[veryfoolish]

Yesterday I was on a Merseyrail train and I had my foot resting on the seat frame (a white metal bar), to the left of the seat opposite me. I was then approached by two officials wearing Merseyrail jackets (although they didn't tell me their names or offer any ID) who asked me to remove my feet and provide my ticket, which I did immediately. I was then asked if I was aware that I had broken a railway byelaw, I wasn't and I very quickly apologised. One of the officials then proceeded to caution me (at this point, I asked if I should have a solicitor present. I was told "No, you don't need a solicitor"), asked for my name and address, wrote down a description of me and asked me to sign something in his notebook. I was then told that I would be sent a letter within 3-4 weeks and that I may receive a court summons to appear before a magistrate.

 

It is the magistrate part that worries me the most though. I want to go to university after college and study nursing but a criminal record could severely jeopardize this. Is there anyway I can stop this from escalating before it gets out of hand? I now realise that I shouldn't have done what I did, but surely the threat of criminal prosecution is completely disproportionate?

 

Hi

 

If you scroll to about page 4 of this forum, you'll find a thread about my situation last year. It's called 'False Details on Merseyrail...' because I was very foolish indeed in an otherwise similar situation. It worked out OK in the end, but you won't be having a particularly pleasant time for the next few weeks. Hope the thread helps.

Edited February 5, 2010 by veryfoolish

[Old-CodJA]

Old Andrew is absolutely correct in identifying one issue in these sort of case, which gives concern to rail travellers and rail staff alike.

 

There is a growing concern amongst some trained rail staff in some areas, including some Revenue Protection Inspectors, regarding the increasing number of incidents that result in apparently unprofessional actions involving some agency type staff, some of who perform a kind of security and public order function for some rail companies.

 

The fact is that 'feet on seats' and other activities where sometimes, members of the travelling public may contribute to a less than perfect train environment have been identified as targets for staff detailed to report in areas where there is a known problem.

 

You will appreciate that on a forum such as this, we only get one side of the specific incident and before going further, I do not doubt your version of events, but I have to say that comments will of course be based on your explanation alone.

 

Having said that, there is no reason for any over-zealousness.

 

If you had not been warned and immediately removed your feet from the seat as soon as you were spoken to, I cannot see any justification for prosecution.

 

Wait until the rail company write to you before responding to their specific allegation, but stick ridgidly to the facts in your reply.

 

You can PM me for more

[Stigy]

As Old-Codger has said, if they hadn't warned you first, and given that you took your feet straight down, I see no real case. I work in this sort of enforcement, and have reported people for having their feet on the seats before, but I always warn people first, unless their shoes are clearly dirty. I believe the actual byelaw is that of "Actions likely to soil the railway..." or something very similar. Bearing in mind that you stated that your feet weren't on the seats themselves, instead they were on the metal framework, therefore if anything that would strengthen your case I'd imagine.

[aaran-j]

Since my original post, I've today recieved a letter from Merseyrail (dated 06/04/2010), giving me two weeks to pay an "Administrative Penalty" of £50 and accept a reprimand or be charged/summonsed with the offence of:

On 03/02/2010 on the Merseyrail Network being a passenger on a train being used for the carrige of passengers did interfere with the comfort or convenience of any person on the railway by putting your feet on the seats of the train. Byelaw 6(8) of the Merseyrail Electrics 2002 Limeted Byelaws

 

As I'm a student who is unable to find employment at the moment, I can't afford to pay this. Is there anything that I can do now or should I seek legal representation and await a court summons and put my case before a magistrate?

[SRPO]

If your version of events is accurate, write back to merseyrail and inform them that as your feet were not on the seat (the frame part is structural and therefore cannot be sat upon) you cannot have committed an offence.

If your version is not accurate I suggest you pay the penalty or attend court and let the magistrates decide whether your actions interfered with the comfort of another passenger.

[RPI]

If your version of events is accurate, write back to merseyrail and inform them that as your feet were not on the seat (the frame part is structural and therefore cannot be sat upon) you cannot have committed an offence.

If your version is not accurate I suggest you pay the penalty or attend court and let the magistrates decide whether your actions interfered with the comfort of another passenger.

you don't have to interfere with the comfort of a PASSENGER, just a person, who was the member of staff.

[SRPO]

you don't have to interfere with the comfort of a PASSENGER, just a person, who was the member of staff.

 

and your point is?

[Old-CodJA]

Good advice from both SRPO & RPI and if I can add a little that might help your decision making process, here goes:

 

1. If you feel that you can prove that your feet were not on the seat, then plead 'not guilty' however, you should be aware that this is a strict liability matter and it appears to be your word against theirs. That doesn't mean you should not try to defend the charge if you are definitely not guilty of putting a foot on a seat. If you are not guilty then you should say so.

 

2. If you plead 'not guilty', the case is most likely to be adjourned to trial at a later date and on that day you will be required to attend Court and answer the charge. You will then hear the case and see any evidence against you put before the Court by the prosecutor and the witness. In front of the Magistrates, you will have chance to question the person who reported you.

 

After this, if you go into the witness box to have your say, you will get a chance to put your version of events and will be cross-examined by the prosecutor. If you choose not to go into the box to put your case in order to avoid cross-examination, then the Magistrates will only hear the case for the rail company are entitled to draw any conclusion they wish from your silence on the subject.

 

The Magistrates will then decide which version of events they accept. If they believe you they may acquit, but if they believe the prosecution you will face a fine and the prosecutor's costs to pay.

 

3. You could let the matter go forward to Court and plead guilty, in which case it is likely that you will face a fine and be ordered to pay the prosecutor's costs or, part of them.

 

4. Seeking legal advice is an option, but, if you do not accept the advice, which is likely to be 'pay the penalty' you will face further costs in getting representation in Court. This is not something for which you can get legal aid. If you do accept that legal advice and settle out of court, you will still have the solicitor to pay and also the penalty.

 

5. If you feel that your case is not strong enough to beat the charge and if you had got a foot on a seat, then my advice would be to accept the warning and try to find the money to pay the penalty, because it will be the cheapest option and will save a court appearance.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Old-CodJA

[snowey31]

I hope this helps (but it probably won't) The feet on the seat warning posters on Merseyrail trains does state that feet must not be put on the seats or the surrounding metal frame.

 

If your having problems paying £50 in one go see if they will accept instalments??

Edited April 9, 2010 by snowey31

[stuart2050]

Hi there, I've just recieved a letter through the post from Mersey rail myself this morning. I too had my feet on the metal frame next to the seats, not on the actual fabric. I was approached by two guys in high viz jackets, and there was no one else in the carriage, they asked for my ticket and said they would accompany me off at my stop. Before we even left the train, one of the guys started to fill out his notepad, and once on the platform already wrote down that I had said yes to being interviewed. They also read me my rights, which actually made me believe that they were police officers for a moment. They said that the company does not tell them what is put into the letters. I'm unsure how to proceed, as my feet were not actually on the seat and I did apologise, however I am currently a student myself and do not wish to get a criminal record for such a stupid error.

[Old-CodJA]

I hope this helps (but it probably won't) The feet on the seat warning posters on Merseyrail trains does state that feet must not be put on the seats or the surrounding metal frame.

 

If your having problems paying £50 in one go see if they will accept instalments??

 

It certainly does help, if only to make clear that if Merseyrail's prosecutor is any good, he / she will have a copy of that notice in Court with him / her in order to show the Magistrates that the warning is unambiguous.

[SRPO]

I still dont think its enforceable, if feet are on the seat cushion there is an obvious impact on others, if on the seat frame, unless a person refused to remove them how can inconvenience be caused to others?

[Old-CodJA]

I agree that there are far more important issues to be pursued than feet on seat frames.

 

In my personal opinion, if the seat or any part of it was soiled by the person's shoes and / or there is damage or inconvenience then it is right that it should be enforced. However, if not, then I don't see the value of a prosecution when a simple warning would have sufficed.

 

That doesn't mean the charge cannot be prosecuted however, as a breach of Byelaw it is a strict liability matter and if the legislation says don't do something and you do that something, then you may face prosecution as a result.

[RPI]

and your point is?

look at your original post and you'll see

[SRPO]

look at your original post and you'll see

 

Im well aware of my posting, thanks.

[Stigy]

Some Magistrates have a hard enough job of finding parties guilty of ticketing offences, so this would be interesting should it reach Court!

[Concerned Dad]

My son is also facing a similar charge. He had his feet on the frame of the seat as he adjusted his seat.

 

Has anyone written to anyone at Merseyrail to plead not guilty by letter, or does anyone have a contact number that I can ring?

Edited April 26, 2010 by Concerned Dad
Spelling mistake

[Old-CodJA]

My son is also facing a similar charge. He had his feet on the frame of the seat as he adjusted his seat.

 

Has anyone written to anyone at Merseyrail to plead not guilty by letter, or does anyone have a contact number that I can ring?

 

Is your son over 18 and has he actually received a Summons yet?

[Concerned Dad]

Is your son over 18 and has he actually received a Summons yet?

 

He is and he has.

 

I spoke to the "Revenue Protection" people at Merseyrail yesterday and asked them about the procedure for pleading not guilty by post.

 

They said that to do that is very complicated, but would he accept a written 'reprimand' that he has to sign, admitting that he had a foot on a seat, but not that he was causing discomfort etc. to other passengers.

 

There is no fine, no costs, but he will be on record for a period of time and any further breaches of bye-laws will be . . . . . . . . etc etc.

[Old-CodJA]

He is and he has.

 

I spoke to the "Revenue Protection" people at Merseyrail yesterday and asked them about the procedure for pleading not guilty by post.

 

They said that to do that is very complicated, but would he accept a written 'reprimand' that he has to sign, admitting that he had a foot on a seat, but not that he was causing discomfort etc. to other passengers.

 

There is no fine, no costs, but he will be on record for a period of time and any further breaches of bye-laws will be . . . . . . . . etc etc.

 

Satisfactory result I'd say.

 

I'm surprised that they gave such advice as the process of entering a plea by post isn't complicated at all, but would ultimately result in a short trial. at which your son would have to attend.

 

For what my opinion is worth I'd say he ought to accept the written warning and dispose of the matter promptly.