Merseyrail - Feet on Seat Frame

[Guest Old_andrew2018]

Dont let your son sign anything until it has been checked out,

[Concerned Dad]

I will be reading whatever is sent quite thoroughly.

 

In fairness to Merseyrail, once I mentioned that he travelled by that route everyday in the course of his education and it wasn't his form to be disrespectful to the train or its users, the lad on the other end of the phone said that it wasn't a sensible policy to 'criminalise regular rail users'

 

I would say that if your 'actions' do not actively cause damage to the train or disruption to other rail users that this point is made, either to the bye-law officers on the train or once the first correspondance is recieved.

 

I also appreciate the difficulty facing Merseyrail, if people are complaining about this, they have to be seen to be doing something.

[aaran-j]

I'd forgotten about my post on here and it's been a while so I thought I'd update you all and I'd also like to offer thanks to all those who gave me advice. The situation has now been resolved, without the need for the courts to become involved.

 

I signed and returned my reprimand form, along with a letter to Merseyrail explaining my situation and apologising unreservedly for any offense caused.

 

I've since received a letter in return, stating that Merseyrail were satisfied with my response and would not be taking the matter any further. They also agreed to waive the £50 Admin fee.

 

Once again, I'd like to thank all those who took the time to offer me advice. It was very much appreciated.

[Monty2007]

I'd forgotten about my post on here and it's been a while so I thought I'd update you all and I'd also like to offer thanks to all those who gave me advice. The situation has now been resolved, without the need for the courts to become involved.

 

I signed and returned my reprimand form, along with a letter to Merseyrail explaining my situation and apologising unreservedly for any offense caused.

 

I've since received a letter in return, stating that Merseyrail were satisfied with my response and would not be taking the matter any further. They also agreed to waive the £50 Admin fee.

 

Once again, I'd like to thank all those who took the time to offer me advice. It was very much appreciated.

 

Excellent, a sensible outcome..........!

[Old-CodJA]

Well done on a satisfactory outcome.

[68904]

Next time perhaps you will keep your feet on the floor not on a seat, where other folk have to sit. That where your size nines belong.

[harms_sean]

Hi All,

 

I am in a similar situation. I received a court summons today as I was cautioned for having my feet on the frame of the seat in Feb 2010.

 

The cautioning persons statement clearly states I had my feet on the frame of the seat.

 

The reason I gave was that I was reading and I hadn't realised my feet were touching the vertical metal part of the seat.

 

I was given no warning and complied with the cautioning person.

 

Will I have a case to plead not guilty?

[Old-CodJA]

There is always cause to plead not guilty to a charge if you genuinely believe that you were commiting no offence.

 

However, if you accept that your feet or foot was on the seat or part of it, then you recognise that the offence was commited, but it appears your mitigation would be that it was an involuntary or, unconcious action.

[griffzilla]

Out of date, I know...

 

Another 600 passengers who put feet on train seats face prosecution | Mail Online

[Old-CodJA]

Yes, out of date, but seeing the main media report was from the Daily 'Wail', the most anti-rail newspaper of them all, I guess it was only to be expected.

 

That isn't to say that I don't have sympathy for a few of those reported, but it doesn't alter the simple fact that "floor for feet, seats for seats" is nothing more than common decency.

[Independent lady]

For those people who find themselves the same situation as I did, having been cautioned for having the balls of my feet resting on the metal part of a seat frame.

 

1) The frame of a chair is NOT a seat. If you attempt to sit on it, you would fall off. It is NOT a seat.

 

I replied to my reprimand letter, which requested I pay the admin fee of £50 and fully admit the offence by signing a declaration of Merseyrail's making. I refused to sign it. I posted it back to Merseyrail, explaining why I was not prepared to fully admit the offence, as at the time of the caution, I was not aware that I was committing an offence, and accused them of taking a draconian approach to the matter. I agreed to pay £25 of the £50 admin fee, and suggested that this be the end of the matter.

 

Their response was to regard the matter as closed and I received a letter stating so. They also enclosed my cheque, un-cashed.

 

I sum up the experience so:

1) Merseyrail have created this position in order to have a weapon in dealing with anti-social behavior, e.g. drinking alcohol on trains, people not paying for tickets and general nuisance behavior.

2) Unfortunately the people employed into these positions are not of adequate intelligence to allow them to use there common sense and discretion with the individual they are facing. It is very easy to tell a yob from an individual who made an error of judgement and who immediately corrects their behavior when notified of their error, as in the case of many people who were told they were committing an offence and immediately moved their feet from the seat frame.

3) The members of staff dealing with the paperwork that these incompetent individuals are creating, have been sensible in dealing with the situation I found myself in.

 

I do not believe the people who this role was put in place to deal with, would loose any sleep over a letter from Merseyrail. So if you are worrying about it, I believe you are a decent person and I hope i have helped you.

[Silverstone]

I too have found myself in this situation and like other users i was given no prior warning to be cautioned and was totally unaware that I was breaking a by-law due to the fact that the posters informing you of this are very small and contain only writing making them fair difficult to spot until you are caught commiting the offence. However I've got a further few questions to ask.

 

Firstly I was told by the member of Merseytravel staff that I'd recieve a letter and that he didn't know whether I'd be fined or not initially, but he then told me that I'd recieve a letter and would simply have to phone mersertravel without paying a fine. However it seems from everything I've read that I will actually be recieving a £50 fine. What do people think the likely outcome will be?

 

Furthermore the reason for me having one foot rested upon the very edge of the seat (which i know is irrelevant) is because my leg was bruised from a football game and i was advised to keep it raised (I informed the person who cautioned me of this and he noted it down) but I have no medical proof of this and the injury has since healed. Is it therefore completely pointless to tell Merseytravel this in a written letter?

 

Finally I'm only 17 and whilst deemed an adult by Merseytravel I am obviously not legally an adult and wondered if this would have any bearing on my case. I also don't have a fixed income and so am unlikely to be able to pay a fine if that is the action that Merseytravel takes. Just some genral advice would be welcomed too.

[Stigy]

I too have found myself in this situation and like other users i was given no prior warning to be cautioned and was totally unaware that I was breaking a by-law due to the fact that the posters informing you of this are very small and contain only writing making them fair difficult to spot until you are caught commiting the offence. However I've got a further few questions to ask.

 

Firstly I was told by the member of Merseytravel staff that I'd recieve a letter and that he didn't know whether I'd be fined or not initially, but he then told me that I'd recieve a letter and would simply have to phone mersertravel without paying a fine. However it seems from everything I've read that I will actually be recieving a £50 fine. What do people think the likely outcome will be?

 

Furthermore the reason for me having one foot rested upon the very edge of the seat (which i know is irrelevant) is because my leg was bruised from a football game and i was advised to keep it raised (I informed the person who cautioned me of this and he noted it down) but I have no medical proof of this and the injury has since healed. Is it therefore completely pointless to tell Merseytravel this in a written letter?

 

Finally I'm only 17 and whilst deemed an adult by Merseytravel I am obviously not legally an adult and wondered if this would have any bearing on my case. I also don't have a fixed income and so am unlikely to be able to pay a fine if that is the action that Merseytravel takes. Just some genral advice would be welcomed too.

They can still report you, whatever your age, however, at 17-years of age, court action is unlikely as they'd have to go to a youth court, which isn't really viable unless you are well known to them for further offences etc. They will more than likely still request an administrative settlement though, otherwise it would defeat the object of reporting you in the first place. Bear in mind also, that at 17-years of age, you may still be cautioned and questioned by way of a Q & A interview. The company I work for don't allow staff to Q&A under caution to those under 18-years of age, but Merseyrail could be different. The law states that at 17-years of age, a guardian does not have to be present if the person is 17-years old.

[RPI]

If you are 18 within the next three or four months then you may well be summonsed after your 18th birthday though, in which case it would be dealt with by a Magistrates court.

[Independent lady]

In answer to your first question:

I believe legally they cannot 'fine' you for committing this bylaw offence. Which would lead me then to conclude that every offence documented would have the £50 "admin fee" described in my letter from Merseyrail, applied to it. So unfortunately I think you will receive a letter asking you to pay the admin fee.

 

I would write a letter to Merseyrail, once you have received the letter requesting you to pay the admin fee and say that you do not fully admit to the offence as at the the time of the said offence, you were unaware of committing the offence. I would explain about your foot. I would not mention the lack of medical proof unless they ask in a subsequent letter. In the letter I would also explain that you have no consistent level of income and ensure to site your age, and offer to pay half the admin fee (£25) in order to see an end to this matter. I would also explain that Merseyrail's approach to this matter is extremely draconian and how you immediately removed you feet when it was brought to your attention that you were committing a bylaw offence by the Merseyrail representative.

 

As you did have your feet on the seat i.e. the cushion that comes in to contact with peoples clothes, I would also apologize unreservedly and explain that it was an error of judgement which you will never ever make again and you will contact all your friends and family and remind them that doing this is wrong and make them aware of Merseyrail's policy on this in order to support what Merseyrail are trying to achieve.

 

I hope this helps.

[RPI]

Merseyrail cant "fine" people for this but ifthey decided to take it to court then the court could fine you, Merseyrail have taken plenty of people to court for this with verying results but mostly ends in a conviction.

[Old-CodJA]

Excellent advice by 'Independent Lady' in my view.

 

Yes, it is what is known as a 'strict liability offence'. In other words, the rule says don't do it and if you do and admit it or, it is proven that you did, a Court will have no hesitation in convicting an offender.

 

.

[Stigy]

I agree that this action can appear somewhat harsh if the person takes their feet down immediately, and their footwear isn't particularly dirty, however, I've seen many instances on here whereby peoples feet are resting on the metal seat frame. Are they really? Or are they trying to play the situation down? I'm not calling everybody a liar, but it does seem a little far fetched in some cases.

 

As I've said before, I have reported people for this, but only if a) the foortwear is clearly dirty, or b) I've had to ask more than twice to take their feet down, or they refuse on the first occassion. As has been said before, there's no Fixed Penalty or Penalty Notice for this, and only the Courts can "fine" a person. Having said that, I can't help but feel if you take the word "Admin" out of the equation, you have a fine... .

[purplegaily]

I've already commented on a similar thread, and wish to Thank Idependant Lady for her experiences. I have written to Merseyrail with my version of the events. I too have advised that I will not sign their reprimand, as i was unaware that what I had done is commited a breach of a by law, and offered to pay £25 for their administration costs in writing to me.

 

My feet were on the seat, not the frame, but as my trousers are so long they would touch the floor if I didn't have my heels on, and the shoes were still on the floor (so in effect all that was on the seat was my trousers - albeit, the ankle end) If I had a short skirt on then my bum end could have had more skin on the seat!

 

I am happy to make these comments to a magistrate, but feel that my next comment may just nark them enough to throw the book at me....

 

If they don't want bits of people touching thier seats that could cause damage, then maybe they should remove all seats from their carriages - make everyone stand - there would be far more capacity on the trains. Soggy Coats, umbrellas, shopping bags, zips catching, children on the seats, short skirts, binkinis (yes - go to freshfield in the summer, and you too could see the joys that come off the beach).

[purplegaily]

Me again. Just to give you the update Merseyrail's actions. They haven't responded to my very nice letter to them (shame, a lot of thought went into that) but they have cashed my cheque for £25. I am taking this as matter closed - as they can't cash my cheque AND take it further (can they??), but it would have been nice to have something from them to conclude the matter. Anyway 6 months after the incident will be Feb 13th, and it'll all be out of my hair forever more.

[Stigy]

Me again. Just to give you the update Merseyrail's actions. They haven't responded to my very nice letter to them (shame, a lot of thought went into that) but they have cashed my cheque for £25. I am taking this as matter closed - as they can't cash my cheque AND take it further (can they??), but it would have been nice to have something from them to conclude the matter. Anyway 6 months after the incident will be Feb 13th, and it'll all be out of my hair forever more.

Not stalking you, but I'll write the same here as I did in the other thread. Basically it would appear that the matter is closed, although I'd requested that Merseyrail formally inform you in writing or at least via email, so as you have a paper trail...Just in case!

 

Well done and thanks for the update!

[ljp1234]

I'd forgotten about my post on here and it's been a while so I thought I'd update you all and I'd also like to offer thanks to all those who gave me advice. The situation has now been resolved, without the need for the courts to become involved.

 

I signed and returned my reprimand form, along with a letter to Merseyrail explaining my situation and apologising unreservedly for any offense caused.

 

I've since received a letter in return, stating that Merseyrail were satisfied with my response and would not be taking the matter any further. They also agreed to waive the £50 Admin fee.

 

Once again, I'd like to thank all those who took the time to offer me advice. It was very much appreciated.

 

 

 

I have just received my letter after just over 3 months of committing the alleged offence.

 

Can anyone who has been in this situation and has written a letter help me out with what to include in the letter?

 

There was also no sign in my carriage which said it was an offence to put my feet on the seats (or on the metal part which they appear to class as the seat). The rail officers who were VERY intimidating were the ones who actually pointed out that the sign was missing from my carriage and stated nothing will probably happen once they'd warned me...total lies.

 

I'm a 25yr old girl totally alone in a carriage at half9 at night. I contested the offence and asked if it was necessary to take my details and not just give me a warning seen as i didn't know it was and offence but they stated that they would escort me off the train and wait for further assistance...which i found very scary.

 

The whole ordeal shook me up and i was in tears as soon as they walked away...silly i know but it was a horrible experience for such a minor alleged offence.

 

Please help me with the letter if you can??!

Thanks

[Stigy]

I have just received my letter after just over 3 months of committing the alleged offence.

 

Can anyone who has been in this situation and has written a letter help me out with what to include in the letter?

 

There was also no sign in my carriage which said it was an offence to put my feet on the seats (or on the metal part which they appear to class as the seat). The rail officers who were VERY intimidating were the ones who actually pointed out that the sign was missing from my carriage and stated nothing will probably happen once they'd warned me...total lies.

 

I'm a 25yr old girl totally alone in a carriage at half9 at night. I contested the offence and asked if it was necessary to take my details and not just give me a warning seen as i didn't know it was and offence but they stated that they would escort me off the train and wait for further assistance...which i found very scary.

 

The whole ordeal shook me up and i was in tears as soon as they walked away...silly i know but it was a horrible experience for such a minor alleged offence.

 

Please help me with the letter if you can??!

Thanks

Hi,

 

What did Merseyrail's letter to you say?

 

Without knowing, it's hard to advise what to respond with.

[ljp1234]

"It has come to my attention that on **/**/2010, you were stopped for putting your foot/feet on the seat or structure whilst travelling on Merseyrail train.

Consequently, it is our policy to deliver a Reprimand and an Administrative Penalty of 50 pound to be paid no later that two weeks from the date of this letter. Merseyrail is prepared to close the matter upon payment of this penalty within the given deadline"

 

Admin fee !! .... there were 2 typo errors >> 'no later **that two weeks' and my year of dob was incorrect ??!!

 

Anyway that aside i just need a bit of advise how to word it as the tone will determine the outcome of the letter.

I don't want to admit fault but want to be apologetic.

Hope you can help!

Thanks

[Stigy]

"It has come to my attention that on **/**/2010, you were stopped for putting your foot/feet on the seat or structure whilst travelling on Merseyrail train.

Consequently, it is our policy to deliver a Reprimand and an Administrative Penalty of 50 pound to be paid no later that two weeks from the date of this letter. Merseyrail is prepared to close the matter upon payment of this penalty within the given deadline"

 

Admin fee !! .... there were 2 typo errors >> 'no later **that two weeks' and my year of dob was incorrect ??!!

 

Anyway that aside i just need a bit of advise how to word it as the tone will determine the outcome of the letter.

I don't want to admit fault but want to be apologetic.

Hope you can help!

Thanks

Just be state that you were unaware that putting your foot/feet on the frame of the seat would be deamed as inappropriate. State that your footwear was clean and that you made sure your foot/feet wasn't on the seat fabric (assuming they were, and assuming they weren't in that order ). State that you were not aware an offence had been committed, and that no signage was present. Also ask if CCTV was present, as this could back your version of events up. Also say that you apologise if the staff deemed your actions inappropriate.

 

Or you could pay them £50...