Caught using someone else's Freedom pass, convicted - leave to appeal granted

[iambilly]

I am just saying it is my first ever offence, people get away with far greater crimes and get less punishment.

 

It doesn't excuse the fact that the ticket inspector lied.

 

It is worth a grand definantely, the fair was like £4 or something.

 

I don't need someone telling me how wrong I was, don't you think I know that, I came here for a little help and advice.

 

Two lies don't make a right

[iambilly]

I meant, if you sent them a cheque for a grand, I bet they would've cashed it! I'm a bit of a believer in 'a bird in hand', although TfL can be contrary bastards. But if you just offered a grand it's not quite the same thing as paying it. E.g., when you hear about people settling on the steps of the Court, they literally pay up on the steps of the Court... they doon't make arrangements to ppay a little bit incrementally a month. See what i mean? Not that I'm suggesting you should pay a grand anyhow. Blimey. In fact:

 

"'Crumbs!" -Said William'.

 

Yeah I should have sent them a check I guess. I have to bring money to pay the fines I will receive so maybe I will bring quite a lot and offer to pay them a greater sum before court.

 

I am hoping an envoloipe full of cash will help them see the light. Definitely my last attempt to save myself a criminal record... it't not looking good

[BazzaS]

I am just saying it is my first ever offence, people get away with far greater crimes and get less punishment.

 

It doesn't excuse the fact that the ticket inspector lied.

 

It is worth a grand definantely, the fair was like £4 or something.

 

I don't need someone telling me how wrong I was, don't you think I know that, I came here for a little help and advice.

 

Two lies don't make a right

 

I'm more minded to offer help

A) when there is help to offer. I can't suggest how you can make TfL settle out of court, for the reasons already stated

B) when someone hasn't told different variants of the truth here, too (whose pass was it?)

C) when the original poster appears to regret their actions, more than appearing to regret being caught or more than regretting not being given an out of court settlement.

 

How do you know the ticket inspector lied?.

Firstly they might merely have been mistaken.

Secondly, they might have expected you to get "just a warning" from their report, and then the person reviewing their report has decided it was worth of prosecution.

 

Two wrongs don't make a right. However, the only established wrong here is your fraudulent use of a pass issued at public cost to a disadvantaged group.

 

If your concern is people "getting away with less, for far worse" : don't try and wriggle out of responsibility for your actions, but feel free to press for those others to be held fully to account for their actions.

[iambilly]

I'm more minded to offer help

A) when there is help to offer. I can't suggest how you can make TfL settle out of court, for the reasons already stated

B) when someone hasn't told different variants of the truth here, too (whose pass was it?)

C) when the original poster appears to regret their actions, more than appearing to regret being caught or more than regretting not being given an out of court settlement.

 

How do you know the ticket inspector lied?.

Firstly they might merely have been mistaken.

Secondly, they might have expected you to get "just a warning" from their report, and then the person reviewing their report has decided it was worth of prosecution.

 

Two wrongs don't make a right. However, the only established wrong here is your fraudulent use of a pass issued at public cost to a disadvantaged group.

 

If your concern is people "getting away with less, for far worse" : don't try and wriggle out of responsibility for your actions, but feel free to press for those others to be held fully to account for their actions.

 

 

I only changed my story a slight bit in case TFL reads it. It was a freedom pass its doesn't matter which person owns it.

 

Of course I regret my action I can't sleep and I am pretty ill at the moment. This is the biggest mistake of my life I don't need to write a massive paragraph saying how bad I feel.

 

I asked the ticket inspector a clear question "would this go any further?" to which he replied "no because you were so cooperative and did not lie it would just be a warning." So you can see why I am quite upset he lied.

 

I didn't post of this website to get abuse from people on their high horses that have nothing better to do then try and make themselves feel better about themselves. Most people have been very kind and helpful on this website.

[honeybee13]

Hello again.

 

I asked the ticket inspector a clear question "would this go any further?" to which he replied "no because you were so cooperative and did not lie it would just be a warning." So you can see why I am quite upset he lied.

 

For what it's worth, I think people are trying to say that the RPI didn't necessarily lie to you. The fact is that to prosecute or not probably isn't his decision.

 

My best, HB

[iambilly]

Hi

 

Thanks yeah I get what you mean I know it probably wasn't his decision to prosecute or not but I asked him a direct question which he should have said he didn't know if there was any doubt.

 

I will definitely be getting him to attend court with me though.

[BazzaS]

Hi

 

Thanks yeah I get what you mean I know it probably wasn't his decision to prosecute or not but I asked him a direct question which he should have said he didn't know if there was any doubt.

 

I will definitely be getting him to attend court with me though.

 

He'll be there, if you plead not guilty & choose to have the evidence tested. (Thanks to Old-Codga for the clarification)

 

Are you expecting a Perry Mason moment?.

Edited July 2, 2012 by BazzaS

[Old-CodJA]

I will definitely be getting him to attend court with me though.

 

Before you jump to another conclusion about the motives of those of us posting on here, please remember that you came here looking for help and that's what you are getting.

 

If you are going to make sure the inspector attends Court with you, the only way that you will guarantee that happens is to plead 'not guilty'.

 

This means your case will be adjourned to a later date when a full trial will take place and if you are then found guilty you will lose any credit that the Magistrates would have given for an early guilty plea, so the penalty imposed by the Magistrates is likely to be higher.

 

 

Ha I will try.

 

Does anyone know how many people will actually be in the court room?

 

Minimum will be 4. That's a district Judge, a Legal Advisor, a Prosecutor and You though it is more likely to be a minimum of 6.

 

That's 3 Magistrates, Legal Advisor, Prosecutor and You.

 

If you plead 'Not guilty', then there will also be the reporting inspector to give evidence by affirmation or on oath.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Old-CodJA

[iambilly]

Oh wow thanks yeah this exactly what I wanted to know.

 

I will be pleading guilty so I can only hope the inspector can come.

 

But if I plead not guilty there is a chance I can get away with it? I don't care about the money, all I care about is the criminal record, so if there is a slightly better chance to avoid a criminal record ny pleading not guilty then maybe I should take it?

 

I am not sure what to do and my trial is coming up in like 4 days

[sallypotter]

If you plead guilty surely that will be that and no-one will be giving any evidence.

 

Perhaps you should go to whoever is proescuting with £1000 in cash and ask if they will drop it, pointing out you will be fined less in the court.

[sailor sam]

I really don't get this at all. The OP admits using the pass and got caught. As with all these cases, I believe that people who do this will carry on hoping not to get caught and when they do they come on forums like this pleading for help. This particular case is even more hard to swallow as the OP apparently has £1000 to 'buy' himself out of being prosecuted! In which case, why did he do what all normal law abiding passengers do like pay his fare in the first place???

 

OP, you were guilty so that is how you should plead and face the consequences, end of story.

[sallypotter]

If you plead guilty you will be found guilty by your own admission.

 

If you plead not guilty of course you have a chance you will be found not guilty though at magistrates court i very much doubt it.

 

Crown court maybe, can this go to Crown court, i am not sure how serious an offence this is deemed?

 

Seems to me if you've already signed something admitting your guilt then that's that.

 

You're guilty.

 

If you haven't, your only defence is that it wasn't you using the ticket/pass or whatever it is, never heard of a Freedom pass myself.

 

People on this forum don't like people trying to be dishonest. Even though the other side aren't being entirely honest. I've been told off for giving what has been considered inappropriate advice before so i'm trying not to do so here.

 

I can understand you not wanting a criminal record. You will have major difficulties if you are convicted.

 

But i don't like your comments about the London Chavs.

 

Not sure what you would call yourself seeing as she have "stole" something.

 

Might put you on an equal par with the London Chavs. No?

 

Your best bet if you don't want to have a conviction and they won't accept an out of court settlement is to plead not guilty and hope you are found not guilty.

[sallypotter]

i meant you not she.

 

got to go now, will be back.

 

i would like to try and help you as who wants a conviction at any age? even worse if you are young, it will hound you for the rest of your life.

 

it was hardly the crime of the century.

 

trouble is the sentences on crimes don't seem to tally with the offence.

 

surely crimes against the person should be higher than for burglary for instance? doesn't seem to be though.

[iambilly]

If you plead guilty surely that will be that and no-one will be giving any evidence.

 

Perhaps you should go to whoever is proescuting with £1000 in cash and ask if they will drop it, pointing out you will be fined less in the court.

 

I have already offered them £1000 but they said no as they take freedom pass misuse very seriously (which I totally understand) but maybe if they see the cash they might get tempted, that is all I can hope for.

[iambilly]

I really don't get this at all. The OP admits using the pass and got caught. As with all these cases, I believe that people who do this will carry on hoping not to get caught and when they do they come on forums like this pleading for help. This particular case is even more hard to swallow as the OP apparently has £1000 to 'buy' himself out of being prosecuted! In which case, why did he do what all normal law abiding passengers do like pay his fare in the first place???

 

OP, you were guilty so that is how you should plead and face the consequences, end of story.

 

Yeah I have a fair amount of money but I was trying just to save a little by using a freedom pass (I am a student you know). I know it was stupid and I do not need anyone to tell me that because I feel so bad already, like I have said before I can't sleep well any more and have lost a lot of weight. I just came on here hoping to here other people's stories and advice and most people have been great.

[iambilly]

I haven't signed the form yet which I have to write me plea on. I have to send it off by Tuesday to make sure it gets there in time.

 

I just wanted to distance myself from them teenagers you see in the London riots and lazing around on the doll claiming all sorts of benefits. I wanted to show I am a generally good/nice person that has a great deal to lose if I get a criminal record compared to those 'chavs' that already have a major criminal record and would probably think a day at the court would be a laugh. I know people like that.

[iambilly]

Thanks for the help.

[BazzaS]

Oh wow thanks yeah this exactly what I wanted to know.

 

I will be pleading guilty so I can only hope the inspector can come.

 

But if I plead not guilty there is a chance I can get away with it? I don't care about the money, all I care about is the criminal record, so if there is a slightly better chance to avoid a criminal record ny pleading not guilty then maybe I should take it?

 

I am not sure what to do and my trial is coming up in like 4 days

 

I normally suggest : plead not guilty if you aren't guilty, plead guilty if you are guilty. If not guilty you deserve your day in court and it is for them to prove your guilt beyond all reasonable doubt.

If guilty, plead so, that plea not only avoids wasting the court's time, but goes some way to accepting responsibility for your actions.

 

However, you seem to want:

a) to have the inspector give evidence,

b) to plead not guilty, even though you are guilty from what you have described, on the faintest of hopes that in doing so you'll avoid a conviction. You say you know you've done wrong : a "not guilty" plea doesn't sit well with your claims of accepting responsibility / not needing to be reminded that you have done wrong.

c) you don't seem too fussed that pleading "not guilty" will take up the court's time and may lead to a higher penalty if convicted.

 

So, for you, based on what you have said, why not take your chances? A plea of "not guilty" seems the optimum choice, not for most, but for what you've said you want.

If you "get off" no doubt you'll let us know.

For the benefit of others (my replies haven't just been for you, but also others who might read the thread) ; why not let us know your plea & the outcome, however it pans out.

Edited July 2, 2012 by BazzaS

[sallypotter]

Billy,

 

If you don't want a criminal record then you are going to have to plead not guilty.

 

You have no alternative.

 

Then hope it gets sent to crown court if serious enough, request crown court when you get asked probably at a later date and let them prove the case to find you guilty.

 

If you plead guilty then you will get a criminal record.

 

Unfortunately, you might not like it but you'll be put into the same bracket as these London Chavs as you call them.

 

I'm sure they weren't all Chavs btw.

 

If you have a conviction you'll going to find yourself in the same boat as them, no being able to get a decent job because they have a record.

 

Your choice, i know what i'd be doing, you just have to make up your mind.

 

I'm surprised though with £1000 you have spare you didn't consult a solicitor for advice.

 

Not that i expect it would make much difference but the fine could be less if you plead or are found guilty.

 

Think you are being very judgemental on these London Chavs as you call them.

 

You don't know their circumstances, they may have had bad legal advice, etc etc

 

A whole host of reasons why they ended up with records.

 

Best to concentrate on yourself.

[iambilly]

Thanks for the advice! I do accept full responsibility and I am guilty with out a doubt. They can prove this 100%.

 

Money isn't really an issue so the way I see it I might as well plead not guilty as there is like a 1% chance I will get let off, compared to pleading guilty and having 100% chance of a criminal conviction.

 

And of course I will let you all know.

[iambilly]

Yeah I guess I might as well plead not guilty.

 

I have looked into solicitors and most of them say that they will make very little difference in the court process as the crime is pretty clear cut and simple.

 

Sorry about the chavs comments I just didn't want to be labelled a lie about, since I was making an effort with my life and hopefully being a primary school teacher.

 

The problem I have is they can prove 100% I did it. I admitted that I did use the freedom pass and they printed off like the last 10 journey I made with the card. I was caught red handed by the ticket inspector

 

So a not guilty plea seems a bit pointless to be honest.

 

Does anyone know a rough amount of the fine? if pleading guilty or not guilty?

 

Thanks

[sallypotter]

Are you being charged with 10 journeys on it then?

 

What is your actually charge?

 

Are you sure they can prove it?

[iambilly]

My charge says that on jan 25 I did travel without previously paying the fare and with intent to avoid payment thereof.

 

They are only focused on that one offence.

 

Well I was caught red handed by the ticket guy and admitted that I was using it knowing so I did not have to pay. How could I get out of that?

 

The print out shows my last 10 or so journey which I think they could probably get CCTV of me using the card if they want to.

 

Also there are on the 21/09/2011 it shows the freedom pass was used to travel to the station my university is near. I am sure that if they printed out more past during dating further back they would see a few going to my university stop which doesn't look to good. Also because my sister is at sixth form so she wouldn't be travelling up London to the same stop everyday.

 

I wonder how long they keep the CCTV for buses and tubes for?

[sallypotter]

Not sure about the length of time they keep the cctv for, if they even have any in the first place.

 

How can they prove you admitted it to the ticket guy?

 

The trouble is you know what has really been going on and they've only "caught" you the once.

 

Don't think there is any need to think about the previous times as these not mentioned.

 

Surely they're not going to be looking into that?

 

It's up to you what you do, get a conviction admitting your guilt or hope you get not guilty down the line.

 

It's possible that this ticket guy won't even appear to give evidence, even if he is called.

 

Back in January i had to go to court as a witness and the other witnesses didn't turn up. The case was rescheduled and then 2 other witnesses refused to turn up, so the case was dropped.

 

It's a bit of a gamble what you go for.

 

What are people advising you?

 

Don't you know any law students you could turn to for advice?

 

I don't rate your chances of getting a teaching job if you've got a conviction for this, let alone shop work or anything dealing with money.

[BazzaS]

 

 

 

Don't you know any law students you could turn to for advice?

 

 

If it means so much to him that he has offered £1000 to settle,

A qualified solicitor might be better than a law student.

 

Even so, if the evidence of intent has been established, he wouldn't need a solicitor, he'd need Perry Mason!