Developments the day before an ET!!!!! *************Won********* ******

[RachelMD]

Well, low 3 figures is a lot less than they'd pay for representation at ET.

Don't get complacent, they usually offer about 50% of what they're prepared to go 'til.

You may well be going all the way yet, prepare prepare prepare.

[hhh_88873]

Im not really prepared to entertain any offers now, unless they really push the boat out. Theyve f**ked with the wrong person too many times, and the more I look at the above health and safety case, the more convinced I am Ive got them by the short and curlys, specially with the recent developments in criminal cases and the emphasis on 'natural justice'

[Marieleeza]

Im not really prepared to entertain any offers now, unless they really push the boat out. Theyve f**ked with the wrong person too many times, and the more I look at the above health and safety case, the more convinced I am Ive got them by the short and curlys, specially with the recent developments in criminal cases and the emphasis on 'natural justice'

 

As far as I am aware, "natural justice" (which means reasonable fair treatment with all parties being treated as equals) is supposed to apply to all disciplinary, grievance and appeal procedures carried out in the workplace.

 

Does not seem to happen much in practice and this must change.

 

Glad that you have worn them down to the point where they realise that they cannot win it.

 

Has the baby come yet?

Edited August 16, 2011 by Marieleeza
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[hhh_88873]

I dont think Ive worn them down to be honest, I think all Ive done is tug the dragons tail and p**sed them off. The offer wasnt meant to be serious I dont think, more just to see how firm I'd hold.As for natural justice, never gonna happen when its obvious that my face didnt fit eh?And no, baby hasnt come yet, its due september 20th. So when shes giving evidence in tribunal Im gonna be all over them if they ask even one dodgy questions cos Im not having them stressing her out.

[Marieleeza]

I dont think Ive worn them down to be honest, I think all Ive done is tug the dragons tail and p**sed them off. The offer wasnt meant to be serious I dont think, more just to see how firm I'd hold.As for natural justice, never gonna happen when its obvious that my face didnt fit eh?And no, baby hasnt come yet, its due september 20th. So when shes giving evidence in tribunal Im gonna be all over them if they ask even one dodgy questions cos Im not having them stressing her out.

 

I think you are right in the sense that this type of employer is rarely smart enough to cut their losses. However, I still feel that they will bottle before the day. Have you let them know how much you would settle for?

[hhh_88873]

They have a schedule of loss, and they know the escalation of fortnightly pay etc. in a weeks time, the total will run to approx £16'000 or so. Id settle for way less then that, but I dont think theyll even entertain it. The bag from HR is too arrogant to even comprehend the fact that she might lose.

[hhh_88873]

Although their response was interesting. If you remember they asked me to outline the exact terms and sections of their policies that I was planning on using.Theyve used my refusal to outline exactly what parts I was referring to as an excuse for missing the deadline by 2 and a half months. Theyve said they had to source human rights legislation, criminal law act 1967 and the acas guidlines (all of which they say is irrelavant, bar the acas guidelines) and reproduce it 6 times which is why they missed the deadline by such a huge amount. Ive told them that that is utter codswallop bearing in mind the resources at their disposal.

[Marieleeza]

They have a schedule of loss, and they know the escalation of fortnightly pay etc. in a weeks time, the total will run to approx £16'000 or so. Id settle for way less then that, but I dont think theyll even entertain it. The bag from HR is too arrogant to even comprehend the fact that she might lose.

 

Fair enough! Do they have a copy of the type of reference that would satisfy you?

[hhh_88873]

Nope. I just said the removal of the unfair dismissal from my record.

[Marieleeza]

Nope. I just said the removal of the unfair dismissal from my record.

 

Why not e-mail them the text. It might save time at a later stage. You could even make a without prejudice offer of settlement for an amount less than £16K and include the text of the reference as part of that offer.

 

 

You could produce that at Tribunal to show that you were not totally opposed to settlement.

 

I think it is a good idea to always make a counter offer. It is just part of the game and the ET judges expect it.

 

There is an awful case of a man who was hit with costs because he accepted a £30K offer before the hearing but he had rejected that same amount a few months previously. If he had made a counter offer, he would have been in the clear. I am not suggesting that this has any bearing on your case but it shows how the offer/counter offer mechanism works.

[hhh_88873]

Ive already told them Im prepared to consider mediation twice, and theyve ignored it completely on the emails theyve sent back so I doubt whether Id be found to not be being reasonable anyway.

[Marieleeza]

Ive already told them Im prepared to consider mediation twice, and theyve ignored it completely on the emails theyve sent back so I doubt whether Id be found to not be being reasonable anyway.

No I am not suggesting that you would be but it might be a good idea to have the reference worked out in advance so that you do not have to think on your feet if they try to settle at the door of the ET.

[hhh_88873]

Actually, while Im thinking about it theres another matter involved in this that I need help on.The cctv system on the site had a fault that HAD been reported several times. The cameras would regularly reset themselves to preset positions while being used and would need panning back to whatever situation was being observed.This happened during the incident in question, however it did not miss any of the incident, all the relevant stuff was clearly caught on film. My fiance was the one on the cameras at the time. In their selection of stills they have written when the camera pans away 'Camera panned away by operator'The camera was immediaitely returned to the incident, and WAS NOT panned away, it was merely reset itself due to the already reported fault. Can I collar them on this untrue allegation against my fiance? especially being that they didnt even bother interviewing her about it or asking her if she had panned it away?

[hhh_88873]

Ill type one out and have it to hand when I go into the hearing. Thanks, thats a good idea.

[Marieleeza]

Actually, while Im thinking about it theres another matter involved in this that I need help on.The cctv system on the site had a fault that HAD been reported several times. The cameras would regularly reset themselves to preset positions while being used and would need panning back to whatever situation was being observed.This happened during the incident in question, however it did not miss any of the incident, all the relevant stuff was clearly caught on film. My fiance was the one on the cameras at the time. In their selection of stills they have written when the camera pans away 'Camera panned away by operator'The camera was immediaitely returned to the incident, and WAS NOT panned away, it was merely reset itself due to the already reported fault. Can I collar them on this untrue allegation against my fiance? especially being that they didnt even bother interviewing her about it or asking her if she had panned it away?

 

I suppose she could explain that point in her witness statement and you could emphasise it, if you get to ask her questions when she testifies.

 

It would have to be expressed very clearly in order to be easily understood. As the operator she is the right person to explain it.

[hhh_88873]

She already has put it in her statement, along with clarifying despite being a witness she was enver interviewed. How they expect to have a police officers statement accepted when he wasnt there and not even trying to interview her when shes an active witness is beyond me.

[Marieleeza]

She already has put it in her statement, along with clarifying despite being a witness she was enver interviewed. How they expect to have a police officers statement accepted when he wasnt there and not even trying to interview her when shes an active witness is beyond me.

Posters on this forum frequently complain that witnesses say a lot of things that are not in their statements so there is a chance that she could make that point and also emphasise that no information was sought from her.

[hhh_88873]

They mentioned in my hearing that there was another matter under investigation between her and me, which I assume was the fact that we were in a relationship, but nothing ever came of it. I know they couldnt have done tiddly squat as our relationship and how it was conducted off duty was none of their business. They said that to me in my initial hearing and then rushed to move on from it without clarifying what they meant. I imagine that they will go down the lines of that they didnt interview her as they feel she would have been biased due to her relationship with me. Either way, they should have at least asked her what she thought happened as they asked the other officer on site at the time. Theyve also alleged that I contacted her to move the cameras away, problem with that is that in all the incident reports ints confirmed that I didnt have a radio on me to contact anyone at the time.

[hhh_88873]

Actually one more thing, am I correct in thinking that if the witness who wrote the statement is not present then they cannot use the statement as evidence? Im 99% sure that the manager who initialyy sent me to discipline and who ballsed up on their procedures to start with wont be at the hearing. Does that mean I can have his stuff, ie the initial hearing struck?

[Marieleeza]

Actually one more thing, am I correct in thinking that if the witness who wrote the statement is not present then they cannot use the statement as evidence? Im 99% sure that the manager who initialyy sent me to discipline and who ballsed up on their procedures to start with wont be at the hearing. Does that mean I can have his stuff, ie the initial hearing struck?

I have never attended a hearing so I have no first hand knowledge.

 

However, I am pretty sure that a witness statement is useless, if the person is not present at the hearing.

 

Papasmurf or Sidewinder would know about it so maybe you could message them if they don't visit forum soon.

[hhh_88873]

Its ok, Ive gone back over some info from SarEl and no, a statement cannot be submitted if the witness is not there and open to cross examination from both sides.

[hhh_88873]

Ok, action from the ET office at last. Not much, admittedly but some. I got a letter saying my objections under rules 7 and 53 (something or other) about them filing documents 2 months and more after the deadline and ignoring 2 warnings from the judge will be considered on teh day of the hearing. So who know, I may be able to get their entire evidence bundle thrown out under those objections, at which point theyll be greased up and ready for penetration................

[Marieleeza]

Ok, action from the ET office at last. Not much, admittedly but some. I got a letter saying my objections under rules 7 and 53 (something or other) about them filing documents 2 months and more after the deadline and ignoring 2 warnings from the judge will be considered on teh day of the hearing. So who know, I may be able to get their entire evidence bundle thrown out under those objections, at which point theyll be greased up and ready for penetration................

Nice one!

[hhh_88873]

Still not holding out much hope, but if theyve sent me a letter about it then they must think it warrants the price of a stamp at least...............

[Marieleeza]

Still not holding out much hope, but if theyve sent me a letter about it then they must think it warrants the price of a stamp at least...............

I still think you should e-mail a Without Prejudice letter to the Respondent offering to settle in full for £15k and include the text of the reference you require.

 

It is a war of nerves. Wind 'em up.

Edited August 19, 2011 by Marieleeza
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