Developments the day before an ET!!!!! *************Won********* ******

[hhh_88873]

Ive no idea how to work out stuff like that.I will be asking for compensation for them effing up my chance of employment elsewhere, no idea whether the judge will pay any attention to it or not. Im also aware of the potential for future earnings to be awarded wgich would be nice, but Im not one for counting my chickens no matter what.

[hhh_88873]

Yes, I have hundreds of emails that I have sent with CVS etc, and records of all interviews and phone calls Ive made to chase up employment. Fortuneatley someone else told me exactly what you just have and Ive been keeping all my emails in my inbox and can print off screen shots of everything Ive sent, Ive also got my jobseekers pack which contains nearly everything Ive applied since I was fired.

[RachelMD]

Yes, I have hundreds of emails that I have sent with CVS etc, and records of all interviews and phone calls Ive made to chase up employment. Fortuneatley someone else told me exactly what you just have and Ive been keeping all my emails in my inbox and can print off screen shots of everything Ive sent, Ive also got my jobseekers pack which contains nearly everything Ive applied since I was fired.

Sweet. That's one that's often overlooked.

[Marieleeza]

Ive no idea how to work out stuff like that.I will be asking for compensation for them effing up my chance of employment elsewhere, no idea whether the judge will pay any attention to it or not. Im also aware of the potential for future earnings to be awarded wgich would be nice, but Im not one for counting my chickens no matter what.

 

I used piCalculator. You can sign up for free and it works it all out for you

http://www.picalculator.co.uk/default.aspx?adclick=GAD02&gclid=CLfyn7XX8qkCFdQKfAod4kqraw

[hhh_88873]

ah oh well never mind. Interest, costs, lost earnings, and possibly future earnings would do me. The biggest snag is still having to beat the twelve month rule. The employer hasnt mentioned it tho so maybe it wont come up

[RachelMD]

ah oh well never mind. Interest, costs, lost earnings, and possibly future earnings would do me. The biggest snag is still having to beat the twelve month rule. The employer hasnt mentioned it tho so maybe it wont come up

Oh it will.

[hhh_88873]

The EJ was the one that mentioned it, but Ive had it put on hold at least by making a claim of sexual discrimination for refusing promised leave after the birth of my daughter, health and safety practices by them refusing me legal rest periods and because my MP is involved. The EJ was very careful when he was asking questions as to why the employer had ignored representations from an MP.

[hhh_88873]

Ok, a phone call today and an offer of £500 was duly refused, especially when they refused to even consider giving a reference. Think they are getting worried.

[Marieleeza]

Ok, a phone call today and an offer of £500 was duly refused, especially when they refused to even consider giving a reference. Think they are getting worried.

Yes I do. Take them to the fr*gg*n door of the ET. That's where they will cough up. I believe the ET judges will help draw up the settlement papers too if you settle before the hearing.

[hhh_88873]

I didnt even mention the fact that they still hadnt given me the documents Im waiting for. Hopefully the EJ will batter them for not doing that when it comes to it.

[Marieleeza]

I didnt even mention the fact that they still hadnt given me the documents Im waiting for. Hopefully the EJ will batter them for not doing that when it comes to it.

Maybe it won't matter, if they crack before the hearing. Have a figure in mind that you would be happy with and know that you deserve it.

 

I have bottled out a couple of times in such situations and I know it is not easy when they offer more than 1 or 2K and you are hard up but try to hold out as your case seems to have merit.

Edited July 10, 2011 by Marieleeza

[hhh_88873]

From a purely moral stand point, on the basis of right and wrong, yes my case does have merit. In the eyes of employment law its not so clear cut unfortunately. Its that bloody 12 month rule thats gonna be the biggest hurdle. Still, like Ive said, Ill take just my back pay from the day I was fired and a reference, but by the time the et roles around itll stand at 17.5k which theyll never pay, so its gonna be a matter of getting a deal struck. Theyll not want to lose, but they wont want to pay either.

[Marieleeza]

From a purely moral stand point, on the basis of right and wrong, yes my case does have merit. In the eyes of employment law its not so clear cut unfortunately. Its that bloody 12 month rule thats gonna be the biggest hurdle. Still, like Ive said, Ill take just my back pay from the day I was fired and a reference, but by the time the et roles around itll stand at 17.5k which theyll never pay, so its gonna be a matter of getting a deal struck. Theyll not want to lose, but they wont want to pay either.

That is what I mean about getting a figure in mind.

 

Try to estimate the least you would get from the tribunal and do not take less. This is not a straigtforward unfair dismissal as there is a bit of discrimination there too so you might be viewed sympathetically.

 

The bargaining phase is very like gambling and there is a need to take a risk.

[hhh_88873]

Ive always said from the outset that the money side of it isnt as pressing as other things. Ie, getting the spectre of dismissal off my cv and maybe even reinstatement would be more important. However, if they agree to reinstate me (never gonna happen) they would automatically have to repay all back pay anyway.

 

I just want a fair shout to get my life on track and with the wife 11 weeks away from giving birth things are sharply in focus right now.

[Marieleeza]

Ive always said from the outset that the money side of it isnt as pressing as other things. Ie, getting the spectre of dismissal off my cv and maybe even reinstatement would be more important. However, if they agree to reinstate me (never gonna happen) they would automatically have to repay all back pay anyway.

 

I just want a fair shout to get my life on track and with the wife 11 weeks away from giving birth things are sharply in focus right now.

You have to remember that there ain't no justice in the legal system. You just get a bit of money and what was done cannot be undone.

 

Forget them principles and focus on the cash as it will buy you some lovely baby stuff and that will be the up side.

[hhh_88873]

The up side would just be to win. I dont care about the money anymore, My reputation has been destroyed by this, and Ive been out of work since last augaust because of it and found it impossible to get a job. Ive already got everything the baby could possibly need so money is not any kind of motivating factor for me.

 

Of course, it would be nice, Id be a buffoon not to take a nice wedge if I can get it, but Id rather rather be awarded less and clear my name, than take a higher 'dirty' offer.

[Marieleeza]

The up side would just be to win. I dont care about the money anymore, My reputation has been destroyed by this, and Ive been out of work since last augaust because of it and found it impossible to get a job. Ive already got everything the baby could possibly need so money is not any kind of motivating factor for me.

 

Of course, it would be nice, Id be a buffoon not to take a nice wedge if I can get it, but Id rather rather be awarded less and clear my name, than take a higher 'dirty' offer.

 

That suggests that the reference is very important to you. Why not write one and get them to approve it as part of your settlement. A phrase I like is " he was admired for his ......(persistence, professionalism, diligence or whatever).

 

Get the reference and the cash too. When you make a settlement the other side have to agree to make no comment to other employers other than what was agreed in the text of the reference.

[RachelMD]

Direct call from the R?

£500 is nowt.

[hhh_88873]

I dont think for a second that they would agree to that.

 

You need to understand the monumental level of arrogance that Im facing.

 

The woman who is fighting me is the head of HR, or 'group manager' as shes titled, and she hasnt even got any legal team, shes trying to do it all on her own.

When I responded to the order of disclosure, she emailed me saying she wanted me to highlight every single sentence and passage I was going to be referring to, and when I told her to go swivel, she went and complained to the judge, who promptly said that I was under no obligation to do that.

 

I firmly believe that todays phonecall was to just test the water. I mean, why on earth ring me to try and settle when you havent even responded to a warning from the judge about what you havent done? It doesnt make sense.

[hhh_88873]

Yeah Rachel, it was from the clerk that I mentioned in a previous post that was at the tribunal with the head of HR. I think theres a underlying motive to the call today, maybe seeing how strong I was gonna seem in the face of an initial offer.

 

The fact that I actually laughed may go some way to show them what I thought..........

[RachelMD]

I doubt they'll go any thing above what it'd cost them to have a solicitor representing them at ET, H.

A couple of grand, tops.

 

I'd say in your position, a compromise agreement that includes a decent agreed reference is the priority.

[hhh_88873]

Thats the thought that Im going with as well. Mind you, if they dont retain legal counsel, they may make a higher offer depending on how it goes on the day, if they are clearer getting kicked all over the court room, which provided I can beat the 12 month rule, I have ample evidence to do, they may try me during the break, or a recess.

 

On the point of the reference, If I do provide one and they agree to it, can they put anything else on references other than what is agreed to?

 

I mean, unofficially theyve already screwed me once.

[Marieleeza]

Thats the thought that Im going with as well. Mind you, if they dont retain legal counsel, they may make a higher offer depending on how it goes on the day, if they are clearer getting kicked all over the court room, which provided I can beat the 12 month rule, I have ample evidence to do, they may try me during the break, or a recess.

 

On the point of the reference, If I do provide one and they agree to it, can they put anything else on references other than what is agreed to?

 

I mean, unofficially theyve already screwed me once.

I have some experience of this and they cannot add anything. You can get the judge to make that clear in the paperwork. However, if you are dealing with low-lives it is hard to have confidence in their ability to stick to any agreement.

[hhh_88873]

I still wouldnt trust them. They wont follow a judges order about releasing evidence, even after a judges warning, so theres no way theyd think twice about screwing me out of work in the future.

[hhh_88873]

Ive been looking through some extra research, and Ive come across something called the Burchell Principles, which state that an employer has to reach a conclusion and hold a reasonable belief after showing that they have made a complete and thorough investigation.

 

Since my former employer did not interview both the witnesses to my initial incident (the operator of the CCTV) does that mean I could reasonably say they have not made any attempt to complete a thorough investigation? specially being the one witness they did interview said quite clearly I was in the right?

 

In respect of a fair reason the employer is required to show that at the time of the dismissal the employer honestly believed that the facts disclosed a fair reason to dismiss (Devis (W) & Sons Limited v. Atkins [1977] AC 931) and such honest belief will be upheld (by the courts /tribunal) even where there is mistake. However, it is important to note that an honest belief can only be such that the evidence that the employer relies upon is capable of generating such a conclusion.

The case of British Home Stores v. Burchell [1980] ICR 303 sets out the ‘Burchell Principles’ that an employer must be satisfied to have been shown:

 

a) An honest belief of the employee’s actions; due to

b) Reasonable grounds in support of that belief; resulting from

c) A reasonable investigation of the incident.

Edited July 10, 2011 by hhh_88873
quoting references