Penalty Charges on Trains

[Mr. Kipling]

Totally irrelevant!!!

 

A Passenger has a duty to have in his /her possession, a valid ticket for his/her entire journey BEFORE he/she boards a train.

 

The ONLY exception to this would be if he/she boarded at a station where ticket purchases are unavailable...i.e NO ticket office/ticket issuing machine.

 

If this is the case, it is the passengers responsibility to obtain a valid ticket at THEIR 1st reasonable opportunity...i.e From an onboard Train Manager/Guard etc, or at a suitable Ticket Office, either at their destination, or preferably, whilst changing trains en route.

 

Whilst acknowledging that it is quite possible to 'ARRIVE' at a Penalty Fare Station, from a NON-Penalty Fare Station, the passenger has usually had the chance of obtaining a valid ticket + so your initial statement does NOT hold true.

 

...Unless U are inferring that U are personally aware of a Penalty Fare Station that has NO signage to this effect??...

 

I`ve had that happen before, got on the train at one of several `chav halts` (I call them that cos chavs hang around there, damage all the ticket machines and generally cause trouble - that stretch of line is referred to as `Bomb Alley`) and went up to the guard who then went to issue the ticket and his ticket machine screwed up (it was one of those old square ones with all the buttons where you had to know all the station numbers) cos of the battery pack. On another occasion he`d run out of ticket roll and had no spare. Luckily he walked past while I was explaining to the ticket inspector so I could get a ticket. IMHO there`s no need for anyone to be a jobsworth if there`s a reaonable explanation (and proof) then there`s no reason not to be able to buy a ticket at the destination.

 

They have ticket offices on the platforms or inside the barriers at Brighton and London for that reason. I don`t condone travelling with no ticket, but I still think going back to the old days when every station had ticket inspectors and your ticket would be clipped on every train and at the entrance and exit to every station would be better, along with the old type pink tickets and proper facilities at every station (but then, I`d favour a return to proper, loco hauled trains rather than the rubbish we have to put up with these days)

[LodgeD87]

I am currently a train conductor/guard for a company in the North. We are the biggest in the north and mainly operate urban services. Stoppers!

 

As milktrayman States:

 

It is a legal requirement to purchase a valid ticket to travel Before YOU BOARD A TRAIN at a station where ticket Facilities are available.

Out of hours (when the booking office is closed) it is acceptable to board the train and catch the Guard at the first opportunity.

 

Many people think it is our job to come and get the fare from you. This is not the case. As stated in the Railway bye-laws, you are to approach us. So in effect we could sit on our arses and let you form a que.

 

As a courtesy we dont. As people have said. You can guarantee that 99% of people are either trying to avoid paying, or couldn't be arsed to get it from the ticket office, either turning up late for their train or not wanting to que up. So it makes it hard to judge who is genuine.

 

Up North, we dont operate a penalty fare scheme. Instead if you join the train where ticket facilities are available and are working, you will not be entitled to any railcard discounts or Cheap Day Fares.

 

If you refuse to pay the fare requested, usually the full STANDARD RATE, you will be asked to provide your details, and in some cases an UNPAID FARES NOTICE, could be issued. (Genuine Circumstances).

 

If your details are found to be incorrect and you were avoiding the fare in the first place you would be reported and asked to leave the train. Many people refuse this also and end up being removed by BTP.

 

At this point our own prosecutions department will prosecute, ie for fare evasion, verbal abuse etc and a £2.40 fare ends up in being a £269 fine and a criminal record. We prosecute on a daily basis and i can assure you the outcome is the same.

 

Hope this sheds some light on the situation.

[TideTurner]

It is a legal requirement to purchase a valid ticket to travel Before YOU BOARD A TRAIN at a station where ticket Facilities are available.

 

Lodge, what would be the position where someboby attempted to purchase a ticket with a £20 note from the ticket office, and were told that they did not have change? Also, what is the minimum age for applying a penalty?

[JOSH_IOU]

Welcome to the real world Milky Tray Man.

 

If they really wanted to enforce train tickets for every passenger then there would be ticket inspectors at the Turnstiles.(all the time the trains operate)

 

There is a way you can claim back a penalty charge however I am not aware it has been tried on train tickets. I guess this could still work. Have a look at my thread.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/public-transport-trains-tubes/147021-have-you-been-given.html

[TideTurner]

Josh,

 

I posted this a long, long time ago. And yes, it will make several organisations go away, but I suspect it is because rather than spend £2000.00 on a Lawyer that understands it to gain a £20.00 peenalty fee, they give up the ghost.

 

The Metric Martyrs did however take full advantage of its content, and as the matter I am talking about concerns my 13 year old neice and her 12 year old friend, I will reserve this until round 2.

 

At the moment I'm after the details of current legislation or bye-laws which affect rail users and the application of penalties.

 

Anybody know what regulations I should be looking at?

 

Tide

[JOSH_IOU]

My applogise.

 

I was reading your post on another thread and this thread at the same time.

Well you no how it is when you thread hop.

 

 

I will have a look for the relevant bye laws for you for the mistake.

 

[JOSH_IOU]

Try this site Tide.

 

Department for Transport - Regulations and byelaws

 

(good old google)

[TideTurner]

Many thanks Josh,

 

I believe the info I need is from the Transport Act 2000

 

S17. Compulsory Ticket Areas

 

(1) No person shall enter a compulsory ticket area on the railway unless he has with with him a valid ticket.

 

(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person.

 

(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 17(1) or 17(2) if:

 

(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey.

 

(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or

 

(iii)an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

 

S18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas

 

(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.

 

(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person.

 

(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:

 

(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey.

 

(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or

 

(iii)an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

 

S17(3)(i) should do the job, together with any intimidation given. My 13 year old Niece was reduced to tears and had a genuine reason for not having a ticket.

 

All the best

 

Tide

Edited June 4, 2008 by TideTurner
Highlight relevant sections

[MilkTrayMan]

Welcome to the real world Milky Tray Man.

Why thank U JOSH IOU, for your generous warm greetings...

 

 

 

 

If they really wanted to enforce train tickets for every passenger then there would be ticket inspectors at the Turnstiles.(all the time the trains operate)

Could U NOT imagine by how much fares would have to rise, to compensate for the increase in the wages bill??...

 

 

 

 

There is a way you can claim back a penalty charge however I am not aware it has been tried on train tickets. I guess this could still work. Have a look at my thread.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/public-transport-trains-tubes/147021-have-you-been-given.html

I am quite sure that U will fare quite admirally, without me telling U over + over again what the law states regarding Penalty Fares pertaining to Railways...

 

 

...

[JOSH_IOU]

Claim for stress and anxiety after the court case has finished. Tied.

 

If you put your point across to the judge like that "if" it actually gets that far then your in for a massive winning chance.

[TideTurner]

Claim for stress and anxiety after the court case has finished. Tied.

 

If you put your point across to the judge like that "if" it actually gets that far then your in for a massive winning chance.

 

Thanks Josh, I already did. The word STRESS seems to spook them. I have included this in previous letters, which places them in a 'risk' situation. £20 fine - £75,000 claim.

 

LodgeD87, any chance of a reply to my recent post?

[JOSH_IOU]

Yes I would imagine any one claiming for stress would get a simmilar response from any defendant.

 

Not only are you claiming an unspecified amunt of dosh you are in effect counterclaiming that they are in the wrong and not you.

 

Any one who thinks they are following the law and are faced with this would infact be a little edgey on responding to such a claim. If they no what they are doing.

[train manager]

The railways are governed by their own byelaws. If you fail to purchase a ticket you may end up having a penalty added to the charge, you must have tried to buy a ticket from a station, machine or the guard in charge of the train, if the station is closed the machine broken and no guard on the train then i personally would fight the charge if given one.

 

Ensure that you make a note of thre machine number and location if broken and the time you tried to buy one, the name of the sation if closed and what time and the time of the train you boarded if the train is driver only operated, always cover your back then any civilised company should or would not charge you.

[Old-CodJA]

Referring to the article by Richard Cobley may be considered to be misleading in many respects because too many people have applied his comments in areas where there is no penalty fare scheme and he was referring only to specific issues involving South West Trains.

 

The FACT is that whether or not there is a Penalty Fare scheme in operation the more powerful legislation contained within National Railways Byelaws 17 & 18 (2005) is relevant at all times.

 

If there are pre-purchase facilities available to an intending traveller then these Byelaws make it a strict liability requirement that every traveller can show a valid ticket.

 

The Penalty Fares (Railways) Rules are determined by The Railways Act and are a civil matter. These are just one way in which some rail operators in some permitted areas attempt to control some revenue losses.

 

If a Penalty Fare remains unpaid or, not successfully appealed at the end of 21 days, the rail company may cancel it and issue a summons alleging an offence of travelling without a valid ticket in accordance with current legislation.

 

The law in respect of intentional fare evasion has stood the test of time. Updated by other legislation, but still the basis for prosecution in a great many cases, The Regulation of Railways Act 1889 has been in continuous use for 120 years this year.

 

The Railways Byelaws, with more recent amendment, have been in place for around the same length of time and form a very powerful set of common-sense rules, breaching these may well result in a visit to a Magistrates Court.

 

If you can get a ticket before travelling you have an obligation to do so.

 

That doesn't mean if the company takes the particular type of payment you want to use. The rail companies are like all other service providers. They can choose to take or not any type of payment other than cash. For instance, it's no good blaming a rail company if they do not take debit cards on a train or at a barrier line. It is the card issuer who stipulates there must be an electronic means of checking the credit available, not the train operator,

 

It isn't ALWAYS the rail company's fault if a booking clerk cannot attend to you at the specific minute you arrive. It means if there is a facility, you have a duty to use it. If you regularly travel from a busy station where you might have to queue for a few minutes, why not book in advance, buy a season ticket or arrive a few minutes earlier.?

 

I do expect to get a broadside for saying that because some will point out that some stations are woefully understaffed at peak times.

 

I agree that is sometimes the case, and I am always very critical of rail operators who can be shown not to be taking steps to deal with those issues, but when the numbers of complaint of this type are properly analysed it is far more often shown that there was an alternative to queuing available to the traveller.

 

Usually, the individual concerned simply did not want to queue or to use a self-service facility.

 

No-one pretends that the rail operators are perfect, and I certainly do not pretend that penalty fares are a perfect answer, but I wish that more people would stop pretending that they don't know exactly what they are doing when they fail to pay a fare and subsequently get issued a penalty fare or worse..

 

I am involved in the decision making process in these procedures every working day and it's worth bearing in mind the following fundamental facts:

 

1. To proceed to prosecution the rail company does not have to prove a traveller intended to avoid paying. Proving the strict liability Byelaw offence of 'fail to show a ticket' is sufficient. The traveller might suggest some mitigation, but if it is strong enough, the rail company would be issuing a summons.

 

2. To prove intent to avoid a fare the rail company does have to show that there was a deliberate 'Mens Rea', the traveller exhibited a state of mind of intent not to pay.

 

This Mens Rea can be evident at any time, it may be that a traveller went to a station with every intention of paying his fare before travelling, but on arrival saw a chance to get on a late running train without doing so, was not checked during the journey and arrives at a station where he is able to walk out without paying. Walking on without queuing to pay on arrival changes his 'state of mind'

 

I always try to be scrupulously fair in processing these matters.

 

If a traveller has done everything that they realistically could to pay the correct fare then they will not be penalised.

 

If a traveller has genuinely tried to get a ticket and the rail company has failed to meet its obligation to provide adequate facilities or has been unable to deal with your query in the time allowed then they will not be penalised

Edited April 25, 2009 by Old-CodJA