Penalty Charges on Trains

[BigNick2]

Been reading this site for a while and havent come accross anything about this, just wondering what anyone legal-minded on here thinks about them.

 

 

Cant help but notice the massive signs at train stations threatening penalty charges if you dont have a valid ticket for travel.

 

Do they come under the same legislation as the banking penalty charges?

 

Not had a problem with having to pay one or anything, just curious really.

[Bookworm]

No, the trains and railway property comes under different byelaws and they are allowed to levy penalties, so it's different from the banks.

[MilkTrayMan]

Simple answer is...

 

NOPE!!!

 

 

...lol...

[robert_harper_2000]

unless the station you boarded didn't have a sign saying that it was a penatly station?

[BigNick2]

Simple answer is...

 

NOPE!!!

 

 

...lol...

 

 

Hehe now I want to know the complex answer

[MilkTrayMan]

I had a stint as a Revenue Protection Inspector for a Train Operating Company several years ago...

NO U DON'T...

I have absolutely NO sympathy for those that choose to flout ANY Railway Bylaw, either knowingly, or unknowingly!...

[MilkTrayMan]

unless the station you boarded didn't have a sign saying that it was a penatly station?

Totally irrelevant!!!

A Passenger has a duty to have in his /her possession, a valid ticket for his/her entire journey BEFORE he/she boards a train.

The ONLY exception to this would be if he/she boarded at a station where ticket purchases are unavailable...i.e NO ticket office/ticket issuing machine.

If this is the case, it is the passengers responsibility to obtain a valid ticket at THEIR 1st reasonable opportunity...i.e From an onboard Train Manager/Guard etc, or at a suitable Ticket Office, either at their destination, or preferably, whilst changing trains en route.

Whilst acknowledging that it is quite possible to 'ARRIVE' at a Penalty Fare Station, from a NON-Penalty Fare Station, the passenger has usually had the chance of obtaining a valid ticket + so your initial statement does NOT hold true.

...Unless U are inferring that U are personally aware of a Penalty Fare Station that has NO signage to this effect??...

[BigNick2]

Im probably misinterpreting things but it seems like from what ive read about penalty charges and parking fines on various forums that private companies cant impose fines - they can only collect to reflect actual loss.

 

So... if the railway bylaws were inplace when the railway was a public service couldnt this part of them be challenged since privitisation?

 

Or am I starting to touch on the complicated answer here?

[MilkTrayMan]

Private Car Parking firms/Banks are subject to general statutes.

Railway related matters are mainly subject to their OWN Bylaws.

...These Bylaws have often been enshrined in, or have been given exemption from general statutes.

 

THINK about it...

 

Do U REALLY believe that with more than 160,000 registered Users of CAG, that someone wouldn't have thought about what U are proposing before now??...

...Do U see many Posts regarding anyone successfully challenging Railway Bylaws on the basis of general statutes??...

 

Go see for yourself + Post back some links...

[robert_harper_2000]

I agree that those who purposly do it shoudl be charged. I just thought I would note that I read abit trhough the railway act or sth a while ago and thought if you got on at a non-penalty station without a ticket then you could challenge the penalty.

[MilkTrayMan]

...if you got on at a non-penalty station without a ticket then you could challenge the penalty.

Here is a recent Thread concerning 'challenging' NOT having possession of a valid Ticket...

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-consumer-issues/101813-magistrates-court-1-underground.html

 

...Note it's outcome carefully!...

 

 

...

[Paintball]

Private Car Parking firms/Banks are subject to general statutes.

 

Railway related matters are mainly subject to their OWN Bylaws.

...These Bylaws have often been enshrined in, or have been given exemption from general statutes.

 

THINK about it...

 

Do U REALLY believe that with more than 160,000 registered Users of CAG, that someone wouldn't have thought about what U are proposing before now??...

...Do U see many Posts regarding anyone successfully challenging Railway Bylaws on the basis of general statutes??...

 

Go see for yourself + Post back some links...

 

There was an interesting article about this very issue in the Guardian 'Money' supplement a few weeks ago (I will dig it out;) ) and a Barrister was challenged on this issue of paying a penalty charge for not being in possession of a valid ticket on some Southern Rail Service. He politely explained to the Inspector on the train that he had been unable to purchase a ticket for his journey, an explanation which was waived away by said Inspector and the penalty demanded. The Barrister went on to explain his understanding of the law to the Inspector, elaborated on why penalty charges demanded on train journeys unlawful and said that he would happily pay the true cost of the fare and provide his name and address for futher 'discussion' of the matter.

 

I have been in the same situation myself and done as he did; I WON'T be bullied by Inspectors on trains and WILL NOT pay ludicrous and arbitrary penalty charges on train journeys when I am acting in a honest way and happy to pay for my journey on the train itself!! It may be difficult to police, I realise, but many railway stations do not/are not able to provide fully adequate means for passengers to purchase tickets on the day for a particular railway journey!!!

 

In any case, what happens if you arrive at a railway station to catch a train after a night on the tiles, where the ticket office is closed and your only recourse is to purchase a ticket on the train. This happens where I live and is indeed EXPECTED. A little contradiction going on somewhere, methinks, hmmm?

[Paintball]

Here's the article I referred to, from the Guardian 30 June 2007. Remember, the onus is on the rail company to prove that you are fare-dodging. If you are sitting there nicely, asking for a ticket with money in your hot little paw, then really, the nice Inspector can neither assert nor prove nothing of the sort.

 

MTM, Banks assert that their 'penalty charges' are lawful ... but are they really? Shops try to compromise our statutory rights when they state that sale items cannot be returned ... I could go on... Rail companies are no better in the way they treat their long-suffering passengers ...

 

One train of thought about penalty fares ...

 

Travel: Be on your guard, warns Richard Colbey, about a policy that could penalise honest travellers

 

• Richard Colbey
• The Guardian,
  
• Saturday June 30 2007

South West Trains has, according to reports, told its guards to impose penalty fares on passengers who tried to buy a ticket at one of its stations, but couldn't because of long queues at windows or ticket machines. Are these penalty fares legally enforceable? Almost certainly not.

A confidential memo, seen last week by The Times newspaper, suggested that South West Trains is planning to introduce a system under which guards are judged according to the amount they collect in penalties.

The memo, headed "commercially sensitive, please do not circulate", instructs guards to treat passengers as fare dodgers even if they ask to buy a ticket on the train.

As well as being bad for customers and guards alike, the policy is legally dubious. Rail companies have to rely on the penalty fare rules 2002, made by the then Department of Transport, to levy such charges.

These rules are explicit. A penalty fare may not be charged if there were "no facilities to issue the appropriate ticket". This, at least arguably, means there must have been a window at which there is no queue. In plain English, a person is not available if he is serving a queue. Nor is a machine available if it is in use.

SWT says its policy is to sell a ticket within, at most, five minutes of waiting. Although that does not tie in exactly with the concept of "availability".

In an attempt to get around the problem, the train companies have come up with "conditions of carriage". These don't incorporate the rules' wording, but say a penalty fare is payable if there is no window open and no working machine. It is doubtful that a passenger who has bought no ticket, and hence made no contract with the rail company, could be subject to any conditions. The conditions are invalid if they do not follow the DoT's rules.

SWT's website says one of the reasons for imposing penalty fares is to deter those who do not buy a ticket until challenged. But proving the intention to evade, beyond reasonable doubt, would be virtually impossible. A penalty then seems fair, but that is very different from a ticketless passenger seeking out the guard.

Those who couldn't buy a ticket should politely refuse to pay the penalty. The guard is entitled to a name and address and to know where they got on, and will get off. Mentioning paragraph 7.4 of the penalty fare rules is likely to win the argument, at least on the train.

If the guard issues a penalty notice anyway, there is 21 days to appeal to the company. However even if there is no appeal, or the appeal is not allowed, the company is not automatically entitled to its money. It first has to sue in the county court. Judges hearing such claims would not give judgment for the penalty sum unless the company could justify it.

There has been no reported case of a train company suing in this way. The last thing the rail industry would want is a pronouncement by a judge on its levying of penalty fares.

· Richard Colbey is a barrister

[MilkTrayMan]

A small provincial city like Durham is a little different to the metropolis which is London + it's suburbs Paintball...

I am unfamiliar with the East Coast Mainline + whether it's stations that far North are deemed to be Penalty Fare Stations...I think perhaps NOT??

Try not to confuse being charged the FULL Single Fare as being a Penalty Charge, compared to say, purchasing a reduced price Saver Ticket.

Certainly where robert harper 2000 lives in Brighton, there are frequent train services into London where there are NO onboard Staff to purchase Tickets from.

To prevent blatant fare dodging abuse taking place, a system of punitive measures needs to be in operation, else those that are honest + decent + abide by the laws of our country, would have to pay even more than what they do at the moment.

It is NOT for me to speculate on the rights or wrongs of the reduction in Staff of Train Operating Companies.

However, the majority of passengers that flow through the Main London Terminals during the Peak Hours with a VALID ticket KNOW what the system is re: Penalty Fare Station etc

[MilkTrayMan]

Paintball...

 

U type too fast for me!

Your last Post re: SWT, is a commercial decision by it's preferred Franchise Holder STAGECOACH, the infamous upholder of 'good' business practices (...who incidently, own 49% of Virgin Rail also... ) + is NOT a Penalty Fare Station issue, as I was explaining about to robert harper 2000

...

[Paintball]

Hmm, MTM, you are a little bizarre in your assertion that Durham is a 'suburb' station. Quite the reverse, as it is on the mainline between Scotland and London KX (as well you know!!) and extremely busy in its way as KX itself. You will, of course, be unable to test this theory and probabably, equally, unwilling to accept the knowledge of another on the matter ... lol

 

Anyway, a penalty is a penalty is a penalty. Unenforceable by common law and statute.

 

You remind me of those charming people who work for, say, the Co-Op or Barclays Bank, who, when challenged about the lawfulness of penalty charges INSIST that the Bank is right!!! Hmmmmm?

 

Tee hee - leg? Stand on?

[Paintball]

Paintball...

 

U type too fast for me!

 

Your last Post re: SWT, is a commercial decision by it's preferred Franchise Holder STAGECOACH, the infamous upholder of 'good' business practices (...who incidently, own 49% of Virgin Rail also... ) + is NOT a Penalty Fare Station issue, as I was explaining about to robert harper 2000

 

 

...

 

A 'Penalty Station' by jove!!! Again, unenforceable by common law and statute and up to the rail service to prove fare dodging when one is offering to pay on the journey.

 

Hiding in the loo is however, QUITE another matter ...

[MilkTrayMan]

Hmm, MTM, you are a little bizarre in your assertion that Durham is a 'suburb' station. Quite the reverse, as it is on the mainline between Scotland and London KX (as well you know!!) and extremely busy in its way as KX itself. You will, of course, be unable to test this theory and probabably, equally, unwilling to accept the knowledge of another on the matter ... lol

Durham = 1.74million...2005/06

Brighton = 11.855million...2005/06

...Even a lickle ol' station like Bedford Midland = 2.829million...2005/06

 

ALL figures show the annual usage/ticketing figures according to Office of the Rail Regulator

Methinks DURHAM IS a small 'provincial' city station...

...

[BigNick2]

Ok paintballs got the gist ;-)

 

But PB, MTM and others (correct me if im wrong) seem to be saying that the railways are governed by bylaws, and penalty charge statutes dont apply.

 

So which overrides which legally, the bylaws or unlawfulness of penalty charges?

[MilkTrayMan]

Ok paintballs got the gist ;-)

No comment

 

 

 

 

...MTM and others (correct me if im wrong) seem to be saying that the railways are governed by bylaws, and penalty charge statutes dont apply.

 

So which overrides which legally, the bylaws or unlawfulness of penalty charges?

The answer lies here

[MilkTrayMan]

...I want to know the complex answer

Read the following relevant sections...

 

Railways Act 2003

Railways Act 2005

 

 

...

[Paintball]

I repeat ... a penalty ch... Oh, can't be bothered! Yawn

 

Just keep challenging them peeps, pay the fare, offer your name and addy ... nods off ....

 

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

 

... lol ...

[MilkTrayMan]

Further contempory discussion...

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-consumer-issues/67461-sw-trains-unfair-charge.html

 

 

FWIW...When I was employed as a RPI I did NOT receive commission, just a basic salary...

[Paintball]

Methinks you were not paid NEARLY enough ...

[Bookworm]

Anyway, a penalty is a penalty is a penalty. Unenforceable by common law and statute.

 

Unless it is a, oh, let's see... Library fine? Railway fine? Traffic Offence Penalty? An Inland Revenue Penalty?

 

There are actually different types of penalties, some of which are legitimate, or at least legitimised, and there are those which are not... So however much it pains me to contradict you for the second time on different threads, my lovely PB, no, a penalty is not a penalty is not a penalty... :-|