Penalty Charges on Trains

[BigNick2]

Unless it is a, oh, let's see... Library fine? Railway fine? Traffic Offence Penalty? An Inland Revenue Penalty?

 

There are actually different types of penalties, some of which are legitimate, or at least legitimised, and there are those which are not... So however much it pains me to contradict you for the second time on different threads, my lovely PB, no, a penalty is not a penalty is not a penalty... :-|

 

They all seem to be examples of penalties from public bodies, not private companies - so, since privitisation of the railways is it no possible that their penalty charges could be treated as just invoices, and as such are not enforceable as penalties?

 

Thanks for links MTM, understand completely what your saying about the railways being accountable to their own bylaws, but Im still not getting whether or not these overide penalty charge statute - and if so is this set in stone in law?

 

Oh and prob only fair to warn you that ill probably find another angle to argue from if that one doesnt work

[Paintball]

Unless it is a, oh, let's see... Library fine? Railway fine? Traffic Offence Penalty? An Inland Revenue Penalty?

 

There are actually different types of penalties, some of which are legitimate, or at least legitimised, and there are those which are not... So however much it pains me to contradict you for the second time on different threads, my lovely PB, no, a penalty is not a penalty is not a penalty... :-|

 

 

Contradict away dearie ... that's what you're NOT paid to do ... lol ...

 

The Q here seems to centre around whether an individual who, for whatever reason, has been unable to purchase a ticket prior to a particular rail journey, should have a penalty charge imposed upon them (by a ticket inspector) when trying to purchase a ticket on the train. The attached Guardian article poses some interesting points for consideration, in particular, that the onus is on the rail company to prove that the individual was fare dodging. Presenting yourself to the inspector and asking to pay can hardly be construed as a dishonest act and it seems that all reasonable arguments given as to why a ticket was not able to be puchased are waived away with the general assumption that dishonesty is at the root of it ... is the penalty fairly applied? I think not and I hope more people will challenge the rail companies.

[RichardM]

I think a lot of people are finding it hard to differentiate between penalty charges, which are an invention of commercial organisations without any standing in law and often unlawful, and penalty fares, which were introduced by Government and backed by statute and an Act of Parliament and therefore legally enforceable.

[Castlebest]

As a case in point, I traveled to Birmingham New Street station just before Christmas from my local "provincial" (Birmingham suburb) station,

 

The local station is a one man operation and the man happened to be out collecting litter and tidying up so no tickets were available from the kiosk.

 

The ticket machine had a queue at it with a mother and pushchair at the head of the queue trying to get change into the machine to purchase her ticket.

 

The train pulled into the station so I asked the driver if it was ok to pay at New Street rather than miss the train and he said yes.

 

I went straight to the ticket purchase desk as soon as I got to New Street and told them the above but they wouldn't sell me a ticket for my journey until they had phoned my local station to check what I had said was true.

 

If I was "fair dodging" why would I go to buy a ticket as soon as I arrived? It just made the rail staff and the company look very petty and confirmed my "jobsworth" image of people who work for the railways.

 

I understand the need to try to catch "fair dodgers" but cannot see a reason why people who are trying to buy a ticket for their journey without being challenged by an inspector are treated like this unless the railway companies are trying to maximise the number of fines they issue.

[MilkTrayMan]

Some further links for peeps perusal...

 

GNN - Government News Network

 

Passenger Focus - Advice and information - The ticket office queue is so long I might miss my train. Do I have to buy a ticket?

 

Passenger Focus - Advice and information - I have lost my ticket - what are my rights?

 

 

...

[RichardM]

Were the barriers being manned at New Street by any chance?

 

It's amazing how many people ask to buy a ticket when the barriers are manned at New Street, but when they see they are not manned, they just walk straight through.

 

The train operator provided you with a method of purchasing a ticket before boarding the train but you CHOSE to arrive without sufficient time to ENSURE that you could purchase a ticket. You then CHOSE to get on the train, despite not having a ticket which you knew you should have been in possession of, rather than wait for the next train.

 

All that the staff at New Street were doing was making a call to varify your claim, and in doing so were doing you a favour, since they had every right to charge you the appropriate penalty fare by your own admission.

 

Instead of calling them jobsworths, I would suggest you should be grateful that they actually took the time and effort, despite hearing the same tired story from hundreds every day, to help you.

 

Incidently, before anyone says anything, yes I am a railman (so I'm biased), who has worked in the industry for nearly 30 years, including 12 years in booking offices and four years dealing with customer complaints. I may not agree with everything that goes on in are industry, but sometimes the customer has to take responsibility for making their own choices and their own actions and not blame those who make the rules when they choose to ignore them.

[MilkTrayMan]

When I was working as an RPI, we were issued with Pagers.

If there was a problem at any particular Station re: Booking Office closure/Ticket Machine malfunction etc etc, we were notified further down the line.

We were also requested to attend at some stations, to help issue tickets to ease lengthy queues that may have unexpectedly built up, overwhelming the normal number of Booking Office windows that were open at the time.

...

[Castlebest]

Were the barriers being manned at New Street by any chance?

 

It's amazing how many people ask to buy a ticket when the barriers are manned at New Street, but when they see they are not manned, they just walk straight through.

The barriers at New Street have been manned full time for the last 12 months at least

 

The train operator provided you with a method of purchasing a ticket before boarding the train but you CHOSE to arrive without sufficient time to ENSURE that you could purchase a ticket. You then CHOSE to get on the train, despite not having a ticket which you knew you should have been in possession of, rather than wait for the next train.

As I said this was just before Christmas so the queue was unusual. I also ASKED a railway employee if it was ok BEFORE I traveled.

 

All that the staff at New Street were doing was making a call to varify your claim, and in doing so were doing you a favour, since they had every right to charge you the appropriate penalty fare by your own admission.

 

Instead of calling them jobsworths, I would suggest you should be grateful that they actually took the time and effort, despite hearing the same tired story from hundreds every day, to help you.

 

Incidently, before anyone says anything, yes I am a railman (so I'm biased), who has worked in the industry for nearly 30 years, including 12 years in booking offices and four years dealing with customer complaints. I may not agree with everything that goes on in are industry, but sometimes the customer has to take responsibility for making their own choices and their own actions and not blame those who make the rules when they choose to ignore them.

 

I just think when a passenger tries to purchase a ticket whether this is at the beginning or the middle of their journey (was a return I asked for) it seems very petty to check up. I agree if I had been stopped and challenged by an inspector this would have been a very different scenario and I wouldnt blame anyone for checking my story.

[newfoundglory]

Actually, I have encountered a situation where a penalty fare would come under Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. I think these situations are rare though.

 

Penalty fares are usually covered by the Greater London Authority Act 1999 and London Regional Transport (Penalty Fares) Act 1992, not the bye-laws.

 

A ticket inspector tried to issue me with a penalty fare for not "touching in" with my Oyster card which contained a valid period Travelcard. He claimed I was liable to pay a penalty fare, I disputed any liability and did not believe any "offence" had been committed as I had a valid ticket covering my entire journey.

 

Actually, I think he was referring to the conditions of carriage which state you need to touch-in and touch-out. (on a side note, not that it matters but at the time Oyster card had told me I was not required to do so). Conditions of carriage are, correct me if i'm wrong, a civil contract. The bye-laws do state that a ticket whose conditions require it to be "validated" would not be a valid ticket unless its validated - however the conditions of carriage actually stated that a Oyster card containing a period travelcard which is available and valid at the time of travel is a valid ticket (which would not require "validation", that is contain a record of the start of your journey, unlike the pay-as-you-go system).

 

I concluded after the incident that as Schedule 17 of the Greater London Authority Act 1999 did not allow the issuing of a penalty fare in my case, that the ticket inspector was likely to have known this, and that he was in fact trying to obtain money by way of deception. Not to mention carrying out individual journey and movement tracking with oyster card data specifically for issuing a fine (aka unlawful processing of personal data under the first data protection principle).

 

I think the trend is, like this situation here, going to be towards issuing penalties for whatever these rail companies can get away with - even if its against the laws which govern how they are to be issued in the first place. I reckon rail companies are today issuing penalties for "rule breaking" - breaches in the civil contracts and conditions which they themselves have written, claiming these to be some sort of criminal offences, even if the conditions themselves are unfair and restrict consumer rights under Sale of Goods etc. Only in the UK could you be issued with a penalty for carrying a completely valid ticket, at the discretion of a ticket inspector of course!

 

I now ask for staff id of any ticket inspector who approaches me and note name, record any conversations on my phone which would allow bringing about of private prosecutions where necessary.

[MilkTrayMan]

...The ticket machine had a queue at it with a mother and pushchair at the head of the queue trying to get change into the machine to purchase her ticket.

 

The train pulled into the station so I asked the driver if it was ok to pay at New Street rather than miss the train and he said yes.

 

I went straight to the ticket purchase desk as soon as I got to New Street and told them the above but they wouldn't sell me a ticket for my journey until they had phoned my local station to check what I had said was true.

 

If I was "fair dodging" why would I go to buy a ticket as soon as I arrived? It just made the rail staff and the company look very petty and confirmed my "jobsworth" image of people who work for the railways...

A Train Driver drives trains...He/She has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with tickets etc.

Would U have taken the advice of a Station Toilet Attendant as being authoritive on the same issue??

A Train Driver is in a similar league when it comes to ticketing!...

 

A Booking Office Clerk/Revenue Protection Inspector/Revenue Collection Officer/Train Manager/Guard etc are the peeps with the in depth knowledge + those which may be able to give U reasoned authority to travel, without a valid ticket having been purchased beforehand...

 

 

 

 

...The train operator provided you with a method of purchasing a ticket before boarding the train but you CHOSE to arrive without sufficient time to ENSURE that you could purchase a ticket. You then CHOSE to get on the train, despite not having a ticket which you knew you should have been in possession of, rather than wait for the next train.As I said this was just before Christmas so the queue was unusual. I also ASKED a railway employee if it was ok BEFORE I traveled.

 

All that the staff at New Street were doing was making a call to varify your claim, and in doing so were doing you a favour, since they had every right to charge you the appropriate penalty fare by your own admission.

 

Instead of calling them jobsworths, I would suggest you should be grateful that they actually took the time and effort, despite hearing the same tired story from hundreds every day, to help you.

I refer U to my reply to the previous quotation.

 

 

 

 

sometimes the customer has to take responsibility for making their own choices and their own actions and not blame those who make the rules when they choose to ignore them.

NEVER has a truer statement been typed!...8)

[MilkTrayMan]

...I now ask for staff id of any ticket inspector who approaches me and note name, record any conversations on my phone which would allow bringing about of private prosecutions where necessary.

Makes me wish I hadn't left my job as a RPI now reading this!...

Oh those 'friendly' chats I soooo used to have with those 'Can Pay, Won't Pay' 1st Class Season Ticket Holders.

...'Tis quite making me tearful + nostalgic!...

[newfoundglory]

Penalty fares are meant to discourage and prevent fare evasion. They are not there to milk the customer for even more money on top of their valid ticket.

 

The lesson in my case was not that incompetence exisits in the system. It was that, as I had assumed from the start, Oyster card is never to be trusted. The information held about you, based on personal experience, will only ever be used to track your movements and tried to be used against you where ever possible.

 

Its more about increasing the money-making-machine bottom line, than about improved journey planning. If improved journey planning were true, I wouldnt have an elbow in my face ever morning when i go to work, as trains would be provided where they are needed.

 

The solution is simple, buy travel cards on paper only. It costs the same. Available from main line stations. Avoids any incidents. Will prevent big brother from tracking you, and from making mistakes (which let me assue you, it will, on both points)

[ammani]

Hello all. Back in september, on my youngest daughter's 2nd day at a new school, (she is 11) she had to get the train at the last minute, to get home, due to my car breaking down. She had never been on a train before and didnt know the area she was in, and was anxious because it was getting dark. On finding the station, she asked a fellow passenger if they knew when her next train would be due, and was told it was the one just going to leave. There was a long queue for tickets and she was worried about missing the train, but she was told she could get a ticket from the conductor on the train, so she got on.When she arrived at her destination, she was stopped by the railwayman working at the station, and she tried to explain the situation, and offered him the money for her ticket, but he refused to take it saying she had to pay a £20.00 penalty fee. She was so distressed and crying when she came home, saying the man wouldnt even let her explain. I think it was an awful way to treat a child, and ok i understand they have to penalise fare dodgers, but could he not have taken into account the circumstances of the situation.

[ammani]

Hello all. Back in september, on my youngest daughter's 2nd day at a new school, (she is 11) she had to get the train at the last minute, to get home, due to my car breaking down. She had never been on a train before and didnt know the area she was in, and was anxious because it was getting dark. On finding the station, she asked a fellow passenger if they knew when her next train would be due, and was told it was the one just going to leave. There was a long queue for tickets and she was worried about missing the train, but she was told she could get a ticket from the conductor on the train, so she got on. Unfortunately on this trip, there was no conducter, even though there was always one on my trip up to London.When she arrived at her destination, she was stopped by the railwayman working at the station, and she tried to explain the situation, and offered him the money for her ticket, but he refused to take it saying she had to pay a £20.00 penalty fee, and put her through the ordeal of filling out a form. She was so distressed and crying when she came home, saying the man wouldnt even let her explain. I think it was an awful way to treat a child, and ok i understand they have to penalise fare dodgers, but could he not have taken into account the circumstances of the situation?

[MilkTrayMan]

...Oyster card is never to be trusted. The information held about you, based on personal experience, will only ever be used to track your movements and tried to be used against you where ever possible....It is just the same with 'loyalty' cards as well...

 

Its more about increasing the money-making-machine bottom line, than about improved journey planning. If improved journey planning were true, I wouldnt have an elbow in my face ever morning when i go to work, as trains would be provided where they are needed....+ WHO pays for the trains/buses to stand idol in the Off-Peak??

...Methinks the REAL problem lies with the insistance of everyone wanting to be at work for the SAME start time...i.e. 09:00hrs

 

The solution is simple, buy travel cards on paper only. It costs the same. Available from main line stations. Avoids any incidents. Will prevent big brother from tracking you, and from making mistakes (which let me assue you, it will, on both points)

It makes it VERY obvious that the 'Lemmings' who have spent zillions of £'s on their own personal car Sat Navs are in for a HUGE shock when road pricing is eventually brought in nationally.

DON'T peeps realise that a computer tracks their whereabouts, which THEY themselves have paid for + requested??...

...

[Alphageek]

It makes it VERY obvious that the 'Lemmings' who have spent zillions of £'s on their own personal car Sat Navs are in for a HUGE shock when road pricing is eventually brought in nationally.

DON'T peeps realise that a computer tracks their whereabouts, which THEY themselves have paid for + requested??...

...

 

Rubbish. A SatNav is a receiving device, not a transmitter.

[MilkTrayMan]

Rubbish. A SatNav is a receiving device, not a transmitter.

If what U believe is true, how does it know WHAT info to receive/display, if it ISN'T telling the Sat WHERE it is??...

[MilkTrayMan]

...Likewise the same principle applies to mobile phones...

 

 

...

[Alphageek]

If what U believe is true, how does it know WHAT info to receive/display, if it ISN'T telling the Sat WHERE it is??...

 

Lol. Dude, the unit triangulates its position on the global via signals received. The rest is simply a bit of nifty database querying.

[Alphageek]

...Likewise the same principle applies to mobile phones...

 

 

...

 

I agree with you re mobile phones.

[Paintball]

Hello all. Back in september, on my youngest daughter's 2nd day at a new school, (she is 11) she had to get the train at the last minute, to get home, due to my car breaking down. She had never been on a train before and didnt know the area she was in, and was anxious because it was getting dark. On finding the station, she asked a fellow passenger if they knew when her next train would be due, and was told it was the one just going to leave. There was a long queue for tickets and she was worried about missing the train, but she was told she could get a ticket from the conductor on the train, so she got on. Unfortunately on this trip, there was no conducter, even though there was always one on my trip up to London.When she arrived at her destination, she was stopped by the railwayman working at the station, and she tried to explain the situation, and offered him the money for her ticket, but he refused to take it saying she had to pay a £20.00 penalty fee, and put her through the ordeal of filling out a form. She was so distressed and crying when she came home, saying the man wouldnt even let her explain. I think it was an awful way to treat a child, and ok i understand they have to penalise fare dodgers, but could he not have taken into account the circumstances of the situation?

 

Horrible 'jobsworth' Ammani ... sadly, rail travel is not what it used to be

[Pen]

I heard a barrister talking on the radio the other day who said that no one has to pay a penalty for not having a Train Ticket if a person was unable to buy one ie because there is a queue at the station or the station office was closed. the rail companies have never taken any one to court for fare dodging most people are honest it is only the minority otherwise why wasn't mrs C Blair charged.

[Paintball]

I heard a barrister talking on the radio the other day who said that no one has to pay a penalty for not having a Train Ticket if a person was unable to buy one ie because there is a queue at the station or the station office was closed. the rail companies have never taken any one to court for fare dodging most people are honest it is only the minority otherwise why wasn't mrs C Blair charged.

 

Precisely what I was refering to in my post #13 at the beginning of this thread!! I'll bet the barrister you listened to was the Richard Colbey of the article ...

I think if you read what was said, MTM and Castlebest were explaining that these are Penalty Fares as opposed to Penalty Charges and supposedly enforceable by rail byelaw. HOWEVER, I'm with the Barrister on the very specific point he makes ...

[Pen]

So am I he made quite a lot of sense. I think the Barrister was quoting Martin Lewis.

 

Here's the article, for anyone in doubt

Ticket to ride roughshod over passengers

 

 

 

First it was the banks. Now train companies are boosting profits by charging huge penalties. Miles Brignall reports

 

Saturday April 22, 2006

The Guardian

 

Train companies are bullying passengers into paying expensive penalty fares for being on the wrong train - even though in many cases the mistake is down to their own staff.

Last week the train companies were criticised by passenger groups for having impossibly complicated fare structures. It now appears they are hiding behind these tariffs to impose severe penalty fares on anyone taking the wrong train, in some cases amounting to £100 or more.

 

 

 

So no difference to the banks then!!!

[MilkTrayMan]

Saturday April 22, 2006

The Guardian

Cr*p link provided by above Poster...

 

Methinks THIS one is much more preferable...

...