Welcome Finance - This company needs to be banned.

[alb10n]

Thats cool, only reason i asked was if the calculator rounded it down then it would suggest that the decimal was to small to round up.

[andie_303]

Whats his full name. I want to facebook the guy and see what this is about

 

 

Christopher Palmer Nottingham Network - he's on a train station platform looking though a donut (i couldn't make it up!!)

 

Last weekend his status was Christopher can't believe they are talking about his dress sense of the internet.

 

But more interestingly on the 26th of Feb he says he is sick of WFS!!

 

Well who could blame him??

[dadofholly]

hi stewie you seem to be the fountain of knowledge round these parts today lol... can you have a quick look at this post and let me know what you think. Would be appreciated i think they have got it right but not sure.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-2053422.html

[andie_303]

Right, am gonna try and get on here and catch up for half hour. Sorry I cant do much at the moment, life just turned upside down and got lots to sort, and to top it all off I now have chickenpox....of all things.

 

Stewie, once again you have given me lots to think about lol. Did I read that right BTW, are they actually refusing to tell you what the exclusions of your own policy are?!

 

Andie, if Mr P is reading this and after reading your 'feelings' yesterday, I will take £10 they don't turn up pmsl!

 

I do just get so fustrated - I paid my money every month without fail even for the whole year that they have not canx my PPI despite being aware that I can't claim on it I still kept paying!

 

Then you send them a complaint and they reply to everyone else first and you get ignored again - when you finally get through to them they arrogant so and so on the other end of the phone dismisses you with a "I haven't even looked at it yet!"

 

Disgusting

[andie_303]

hi stewie you seem to be the fountain of knowledge round these parts today lol... can you have a quick look at this post and let me know what you think. Would be appreciated i think they have got it right but not sure.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-2053422.html

 

 

I get an underpayment of £1.16 per month on this

[andie_303]

hi stewie you seem to be the fountain of knowledge round these parts today lol... can you have a quick look at this post and let me know what you think. Would be appreciated i think they have got it right but not sure.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-2053422.html

 

 

I also think the reason it's not working on your maual calculation when you work it out for the goods is that they have added your deposit back in

[dadofholly]

I also think the reason it's not working on your maual calculation when you work it out for the goods is that they have added your deposit back in

 

 

 

hi Andie thanks for that... even taking the deposit out putting it in and shaking it all about i still cant get to their figures.

 

does this make the agreement unenforceable though even if it is a difference of such a small amount per month? any idea?

 

As for my PPi i complained to them back in feb and had letters of them saying still being looked into.

[082stewie]

I also think the reason it's not working on your maual calculation when you work it out for the goods is that they have added your deposit back in

 

 

Either im doing something wildly wrong or I am not getting this at all!

 

I cant even get close to your number and Ive done APR and Interest.

[andie_303]

hi Andie thanks for that... even taking the deposit out putting it in and shaking it all about i still cant get to their figures.

 

does this make the agreement unenforceable though even if it is a difference of such a small amount per month? any idea?

 

As for my PPi i complained to them back in feb and had letters of them saying still being looked into.

 

 

I complained in Feb 08 and STILL waiting - got tired so filed in court.

 

The margin for error on APR is 1% below and 0.1% above - though not quite sure how to work that out

 

Sorry not yet a jack of all trades!

[Dipply75]

I do just get so fustrated - I paid my money every month without fail even for the whole year that they have not canx my PPI despite being aware that I can't claim on it I still kept paying!

 

Then you send them a complaint and they reply to everyone else first and you get ignored again - when you finally get through to them they arrogant so and so on the other end of the phone dismisses you with a "I haven't even looked at it yet!"

 

Disgusting

 

Take comfort in the fact that you have genuinely put a crack in their little rosy glasses...and they don't want to reply to you as they are digging that hole a little deeper every time they do

 

I am starting to crack up with this interest/apr thing already, just can't concentrate cause of this itching lol.

[andie_303]

you need some calomine lotion on it.

 

I'm still sooo confused about it - I want to know why the interest I should be being charged with my APR is a lot lower than that on my agreement.

 

And why if the interest has gone down my payments have not - or why I am not paying it off quicker

 

Also Postggj told us earlier that the margin of error on APR is 1% under and 0.1% higher so what I need to try and find out now is how you calculate backwards.

 

Does that make sense? At the moment I put my APR in and it tells me what I should be paying each month - is there a way of working it backwards so I say what I'm paying each month and then that gives me an APR so I can check the error as there is one I just don't know if it's big enough

[dadofholly]

Either im doing something wildly wrong or I am not getting this at all!

 

I cant even get close to your number and Ive done APR and Interest.

 

This what concerns me to be honest stewie. if i us one of the loan calculators i am miles away from what they get. But if i do the following on the insurances i get the same fugure as them?

 

cost of insurance £1798.06

x 12% rate of interest on credit £215.76

x 4 years of agreement £863.06

 

add the £1798.06 cost of insurance to the £836.06 which is the interest and it comes to £2661.12 - the same as they get.

 

but if i use the same formula for the cost of the car i cant get close to what they get?

 

And when i use the loan calculators i am miles off on both?

 

Is carol verderman a member here?

[andie_303]

I've stoloen this off another thread but I think its right

 

As a general rule of thumb take the APR and divide by 2 this should give you roughly the base rate. You need to then multiply the base rate by the number of years you have borrowed the money over.

 

example

 

£5000 over 3 years @ 7.9% apr

 

7.9 divide by 2 = 3.95 x 3 = 11.85

 

£5000 x 11.85% = £592.50

 

So total repayable is £5592.50 divide by 36 monthy payments = £155.35

[andie_303]

Postggj (or anyone else that has a superior knowlege to me)when you say the margin for error on APR is 1% below and 0.1% above is that on the actual APR itself of the monthly amount you pay?

[andie_303]

ha ha ha - Just rang Welcome to see out of interest how much was outstanding on my account and after 2 years and 3 months of paying £190 per month I have just gone under the original amount I borrowed by £59!!!

 

So all the past 26 months have been is interest and crappy PPI that I can't ever claim on!!

 

How conned do I feel? -------> VERY!!

 

Though the man I spoke to did cheer me up a bit and reaffirm my belief about Welcome employees when I gave him my postcode and he said "Is that N for Sugar!!!!" LMAO

[Sammoz]

Afternoon everyone

Just after a bit of advice please.I posted my agreements and statement of prices up on tues and postggj said 'looks like fraud' but don't know what my next course of action should be,do I get in touch with welcome,stop the payments or carry on with the payments and wait to see what happens.Sorry for asking but there's people on here with alot of knowledge whereas I don`t have a clue.Thanks in advance.

[Peterbard]

Postggj (or anyone else that has a superior knowlege to me)when you say the margin for error on APR is 1% below and 0.1% above is that on the actual APR itself of the monthly amount you pay?

 

Hi

The APR shown on the ageement has to be within the range of 1% below or .1% above the actual calculated figure tor the Annual Percentage rate.

If you multiply your given APR by .01 that will give you the lower margin multiply by .001 for the upper margin of error.

 

Remember that the APR is not a prescribed term and therefore would not make the agreement unenforceable under section 127(3) if incorrect.

 

If incorrect however it may indicate that some fee or insurance has been added to your total credit figure which of course is a prescribed term.

 

Regards

Peter

[Peterbard]

THis may help

 

Fees Charges interest and APR

 

 

A quick intro to the subject just skip the bits you already know.

 

Interest

Basic or flat rate annual interest is calculated using three basic values

1) Total Credit (the amount you borrow)

2) Interest

3) Repayment period

The sum of the first two is the Total Amount Payable (TAP)

So say you borrow £200 pounds over 24 months and the interest is 30% p/a

The interest on the credit would be £60 per year for two years or 2*60=£120

The TAP would be interest + total credit £320

The repayments would be 320/24 = £13.33 per month

 

APR

The flat rate interest can be used by the lender when comparing various loan options in order to get the best deal but it does not give the full picture it ignores two important points.

 

1) The repayment intervals

Say you borrow £100 with twelve monthly repayments at a flat annual rate of 6.5%.

This means your TAP is £106.5.

Now say you borrow the same amount £100 over twelve months but you repay the loan in one repayment on the last month of the term (ie one payment of £106.5)

The flat rate on both loans are the same but which gives the better deal?

Obviously the second because you have had the use of the money longer before you have to pay it back,

The APR takes account of this in the first instance the APR would be 12.68% and in the second a much more attractive 6.5% .

This is worth remembering when we talk about fees and charges that are paid in addition to the first or as an initial payment ,as we have seen an irregular payment especially at the beginning of the term can have a great effect on the APR

 

2) Fees Charges and Compulsory Insurances

The additions of fees charges or other items that must be taken out in order to get the loan will of course effect the desirability of the loan purchase and must be reflected in the APR.

This is done by directing the creditor to add any such sums to the interest creating a figure known as the :

Total charge for Credit

 

 

TOTAL CHARGE for CREDIT consists of any monies that you contractually agreed to pay in order to procure the loan. It Includes;

 

• The interest charged on the loan
  
• Any setting up fees charged by the creditor
  
• Any insurance that was conditional on you getting the loan (if you didn’t buy they wouldn’t give you the loan)
  
• The final purchase element on a hire purchase agreement
  
• Any brokerage charges
  
• Any attached agreements necessary to the purchase of the loan
  

(An exhaustive list of charges that should be included in the TCC are contained in the TCC regulations 1980)

 

We have seen that that he interest rate is calculated using the total credit and the amount of interest .

 

The APR. is calculated by using the total credit and the (amount of interest + all the compulsory charges (or the TCC) ).

 

The Regulations and Total Charge for Credit

Section 9(4) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 says

“For the purposes of this Act, an item entering into the total charge for credit shall not be treated as credit even though time is allowed for its payment.”

Section 20 enables the secretary of state to define “what items are to be treated as entering into the total charge for credit, and how their amount is to be ascertained;”.

This he does in the statutory instrument, Total Charge for Credit Regulations.

 

Correctly applying fees and charges to an agreement.

If a fee or charge falls into the category of a charge for credit as we have seen the regulations give instructions on how it should be added to the agreement this is not always as straight forward as it seems.

Say you buy a car for £2000 the interest is 40% which comes to £50 and the dealer wants to charge you a document fee of £20.

Total credit £2000

 

Total charge for credit made up of £50 interest + £20 fee

 

TAP £2070

The repayments on equal monthly payments would be 2070/12= £172.50

This is in accordance with the act as the fee is include within the TCC and as we saw earlier would give an accurate figure when the APR is calculated.

 

Now lets look at what sometimes happens.

 

A)

A fee is charged at collection of the vehicle as well as being in the total charge for credit.

This is easily overlooked as the salesman usually says that you are simply paying of the fee up front and it will be knocked off your total, this is of course bull. As we see here it increase your TAP and ends up in the dealers pocket he then sends the undeterred agreement to the credit company and bobs your uncle.

 

Total credit £2000 +£20

 

Total charge for credit made up of £50 interest + £20 fee

 

TAP £290

 

B)

The fee is added to the total credit

This breaches section 9(4) of the act because as you see it has caused the interest rate to increase and also the TAP which will also of course result in the repayments being increased.

This is not always easy to spot on the agreement, what usually happens is that the first payment is increased in order to pay the fee.

There is no way of getting around the illegality of this.

Total credit £2000 +£20

 

Total charge for credit made up of £50.5 interest

 

TAP £2070.5

 

C)

The fee is just for convenience being added to the initial payment, but is separate to the main agreement on which all the calculations for APR are correct.

 

This would mean that a compulsory fee was not being factored into the calculation for APR and it would be therefore inaccurate.

 

Note

It is not as easy as just saying that the creditor cannot add the fee to the first payment. He can but the fee must form part of the charge for credit and must have an effect on the APR.

The only way to check that he has complied is to do the maths and calculate the APR

1 With the fee included in the Total charge for credit.

2 With the fee included in the Total Credit

If the figure on the agreement agrees with 1 then the agreement is OK if it agrees with 2 then you have your claim for unenforceability.

(Remember that if the agreement has a larger initial payment your calculation will have to allow for an irregular first payment in order to give an accurate APR see ((1) The repayment intervals above.)

[082stewie]

I was soooo waiting for you to jump into this one!!! A million thanks!

[082stewie]

THis may help

 

Fees Charges interest and APR

 

 

A quick intro to the subject just skip the bits you already know.

 

Interest

Basic or flat rate annual interest is calculated using three basic values

1) Total Credit (the amount you borrow)

2) Interest

3) Repayment period

The sum of the first two is the Total Amount Payable (TAP)

So say you borrow £200 pounds over 24 months and the interest is 30% p/a

The interest on the credit would be £60 per year for two years or 2*60=£120

The TAP would be interest + total credit £320

The repayments would be 320/24 = £13.33 per month

 

APR

The flat rate interest can be used by the lender when comparing various loan options in order to get the best deal but it does not give the full picture it ignores two important points.

 

1) The repayment intervals

Say you borrow £100 with twelve monthly repayments at a flat annual rate of 6.5%.

This means your TAP is £106.5.

Now say you borrow the same amount £100 over twelve months but you repay the loan in one repayment on the last month of the term (ie one payment of £106.5)

The flat rate on both loans are the same but which gives the better deal?

Obviously the second because you have had the use of the money longer before you have to pay it back,

The APR takes account of this in the first instance the APR would be 12.68% and in the second a much more attractive 6.5% .

This is worth remembering when we talk about fees and charges that are paid in addition to the first or as an initial payment ,as we have seen an irregular payment especially at the beginning of the term can have a great effect on the APR

 

2) Fees Charges and Compulsory Insurances

The additions of fees charges or other items that must be taken out in order to get the loan will of course effect the desirability of the loan purchase and must be reflected in the APR.

This is done by directing the creditor to add any such sums to the interest creating a figure known as the :

Total charge for Credit

 

 

TOTAL CHARGE for CREDIT consists of any monies that you contractually agreed to pay in order to procure the loan. It Includes;

 

• The interest charged on the loan
  
• Any setting up fees charged by the creditor
  
• Any insurance that was conditional on you getting the loan (if you didn’t buy they wouldn’t give you the loan)
  
• The final purchase element on a hire purchase agreement
  
• Any brokerage charges
  
• Any attached agreements necessary to the purchase of the loan
  

(An exhaustive list of charges that should be included in the TCC are contained in the TCC regulations 1980)

 

We have seen that that he interest rate is calculated using the total credit and the amount of interest .

 

The APR. is calculated by using the total credit and the (amount of interest + all the compulsory charges (or the TCC) ).

 

The Regulations and Total Charge for Credit

Section 9(4) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 says

“For the purposes of this Act, an item entering into the total charge for credit shall not be treated as credit even though time is allowed for its payment.”

Section 20 enables the secretary of state to define “what items are to be treated as entering into the total charge for credit, and how their amount is to be ascertained;”.

This he does in the statutory instrument, Total Charge for Credit Regulations.

 

Correctly applying fees and charges to an agreement.

If a fee or charge falls into the category of a charge for credit as we have seen the regulations give instructions on how it should be added to the agreement this is not always as straight forward as it seems.

Say you buy a car for £2000 the interest is 40% which comes to £50 and the dealer wants to charge you a document fee of £20.

Total credit £2000

 

Total charge for credit made up of £50 interest + £20 fee

 

TAP £2070

The repayments on equal monthly payments would be 2070/12= £172.50

This is in accordance with the act as the fee is include within the TCC and as we saw earlier would give an accurate figure when the APR is calculated.

 

Now lets look at what sometimes happens.

 

A)

A fee is charged at collection of the vehicle as well as being in the total charge for credit.

This is easily overlooked as the salesman usually says that you are simply paying of the fee up front and it will be knocked off your total, this is of course bull. As we see here it increase your TAP and ends up in the dealers pocket he then sends the undeterred agreement to the credit company and bobs your uncle.

 

Total credit £2000 +£20

 

Total charge for credit made up of £50 interest + £20 fee

 

TAP £290

 

B)

The fee is added to the total credit

This breaches section 9(4) of the act because as you see it has caused the interest rate to increase and also the TAP which will also of course result in the repayments being increased.

This is not always easy to spot on the agreement, what usually happens is that the first payment is increased in order to pay the fee.

There is no way of getting around the illegality of this.

Total credit £2000 +£20

 

Total charge for credit made up of £50.5 interest

 

TAP £2070.5

 

C)

The fee is just for convenience being added to the initial payment, but is separate to the main agreement on which all the calculations for APR are correct.

 

This would mean that a compulsory fee was not being factored into the calculation for APR and it would be therefore inaccurate.

 

Note

It is not as easy as just saying that the creditor cannot add the fee to the first payment. He can but the fee must form part of the charge for credit and must have an effect on the APR.

The only way to check that he has complied is to do the maths and calculate the APR

1 With the fee included in the Total charge for credit.

2 With the fee included in the Total Credit

If the figure on the agreement agrees with 1 then the agreement is OK if it agrees with 2 then you have your claim for unenforceability.

(Remember that if the agreement has a larger initial payment your calculation will have to allow for an irregular first payment in order to give an accurate APR see ((1) The repayment intervals above.)

 

 

If they include interest on the acceptance fee or broker fee then it is fine as long as it is included in the agreement or worded as such?

 

By them adding in the acceptance fee into the charge for credit then its ok for them basically?

 

Stewie

[felixfly]

Well ive been trying & trying and i cant get my figures to work out like they do on my agreement. Even adding the fees and trying all possible combinations i can get it to match.

[Peterbard]

HI

The acceptance fee or any other mandatory charge must be added to the total charge for credit.

If interrest sepperate to the interest on the main agreement is charged on any of those fees then that to will be included within the total charge for credit.

What they cannot do is add a mandatory fee or charge to the main credit or loan because this would incur interest in the same way as the orriginal loan.

Peter

 

Peter

[Peterbard]

Well ive been trying & trying and i cant get my figures to work out like they do on my agreement. Even adding the fees and trying all possible combinations i can get it to match.

 

Hi sorry only just diped into this thread where is your agreement?

 

Peter

[biddy65]

just a query is the agreement that shella posted up enforceable or unenforceable as mine was just like that except without the medicare insurance

[Peterbard]

just a query is the agreement that shella posted up enforceable or unenforceable as mine was just like that except without the medicare insurance

 

Hi

Glad to give an opinion if you want me to but you will have to tell me where the agreementis is,i am a stranger around hear just followed my friend postpagg in

Peter