forced voluntary work.

[bcham]

just came back from the job center. and was asked how my volunteering was getting on i told them i would not work in a charity shop.so was told to phone round companies asking if there were any voluntary work. i am a single man nearly 60 yrs of age. so it puts a lot of employers of. and i havent worked for 8 years, but i have done manual work all my life before being lade off. .but for one i have a pay as you go mobile phone no land line,so i cant afford to ring round companies and i do not want to volunteer, for jobs i want a job that pays a wage, could i get sanctioned for not doing voluntary work.

[Mr.P]

"Volunteering" for a company that has the making of profit at the core of their business benefits no one but the company concerned. If they have work that needs doing, they have the means to pay a wage for your labours.

That said, charitable organisations do benefit from volunteers and the work that they put in - Not all charity volunteering involves working in a shop. As an example, I have a steam railway a few miles away always looking for volunteers with a range of skills. This could be anything from food prep/serving in the cafe, carpentry & heavy engineering in the engine shed, or even driving the engines.

 

If you have not received a Job Seeker's Direction mandating you to undertake "voluntary" work, then you can not be sanctioned for it - If you have been mandated, put the ball back in their court and ask the JCP to come up with a roll within the charity sector that meets your job roll/experience. I'd also suggest telling them that you do not have a fixed telephone line (a truthful statement), and say nothing about the mobile phone.

[bcham]

i have had no Job Seeker's Direction,just an idea from my last appointment, followed up with a different adviser,asking what i had done,

[Mr.P]

You can not be sanctioned for failing to follow up on a vague verbal suggestion - If the subject raises it's ugly head again, I'd suggest telling the adviser that you "have no intentions of displacing a paid employee within a business" and possibly "few non-retail/food opportunities exist with local charities that match my skill set".

 

I had one harpy at A4e suggesting a few weeks of MWA volunteering at a National Trust property - Killed that idea off before it got any further simply on the grounds that there was no transport available and the property was some thirty miles away.

[think about it]

What about the CAB then?

 

Always crying out for help, you can use the knowledge you'll gain to help yourself and others and you'll be nowhere near a shop floor or kitchen apart from getting yourself a cuppa and a bourbon cream...

[Chester6]

I used to think CAB may be ok until I found they had unemployed forced to be there so that removed some respect I had for them

[Alfie29]

I know u may not like this but could u try and do a part time course instead?

I know u might say no maybe cos of ur age but they may do ur age range? I feel they will make u do slave labour if u do what they say under their terms?

[Alfie29]

Also make sure THEY pay for ur travel!!!

[Lapsed Workaholic]

Consider public parks. They are usually owned and run by local councils or local authorities.

 

Consider then;

 

1. The responsibility for and upkeep of the park is down to the local authority and they use local authority employees.
   
2. The responsibility for and upkeep of the park is down to a private contractor who bid for and won a contract to maintain the park.
   
3. The responsibility for and upkeep of the park is down to a Work Placement Provider who found a claimant that was referred to them who they could employ and pay to supervise MWA referrals to do the work for nothing.
   

Is any benefit that the park might be to the community in the form of a place for recreation or just to go to for relaxation going to be enhanced or reduced whichever one of the above 3 options one selects?

Could any of the options be considered as exploitation?

[estellyn]

as you have internet access, this site:

 

http://www.do-it.org.uk/

 

is really useful for finding volunteer opportunities in your area for non-profit organisations. volunteering can either lead to or help with getting paid work.

[dyfed]

What about a mental health organisation like Mind?

[Lapsed Workaholic]

There aren’t many who would or could object to either themselves or anyone else volunteering their time, expertise, skills or money to charities or charitable causes.

 

That is not the issue here. The issue is how can the giving of one’s time, expertise, skills or money be classified as volunteering when it is done under threat of sanction or under mandation.

 

Most respectable charities are shying away from such volunteers and avoiding those government schemes that promote the practice like the plague. In the light of last Friday’s High Court ruling I suspect more will do so, especially if they wish to keep their charitable status

[SabreSheep]

There aren’t many who would or could object to either themselves or anyone else volunteering their time, expertise, skills or money to charities or charitable causes.

 

That is not the issue here. The issue is how can the giving of one’s time, expertise, skills or money be classified as volunteering when it is done under threat of sanction or under mandation.

 

Most respectable charities are shying away from such volunteers and avoiding those government schemes that promote the practice like the plague. In the light of last Friday’s High Court ruling I suspect more will do so, especially if they wish to keep their charitable status

 

I agree, Volunteering under threat of sanctions is to some extent morally wrong.

 

Thats why I advocate anyone out of work should find their own charity to volunteer for before being referred by the job center. It keeps you doing something and acts as a preventative measure against forced workfare.

 

Remember that if you find your own position there are no rules in regards to how many hours etc you have to do. And I believe you can argue that as you are already in a volunteering position that it makes you less likely to benefit from MWA

[bcham]

well i have emailed Bradford council saying i am willing do do any part time voluntary work.such as litter picking waste recycling any sort of manual work. i wont work in a charity shop. its not me. i like to work alone. they emailed me back saying they will be in touch shortly.

[think about it]

Thats why I advocate anyone out of work should find their own charity to volunteer for before being referred by the job center. It keeps you doing something and acts as a preventative measure against forced workfare.

 

Remember that if you find your own position there are no rules in regards to how many hours etc you have to do. And I believe you can argue that as you are already in a volunteering position that it makes you less likely to benefit from MWA.

 

I think that's where the initial intention of MWA comes in, I'm not arguing that it appears to be found wanting in the way it's implemented, but in helping to expose people to new skills and environments it's a fantastic resource.

 

For someone with limited experience, whose chances of finding similar work that's suitable are slim to none then it's an excellent opportunity to develop skills doing something new.

 

In the case of where someone refuses to consider developing new skills it's especially challenging, lets be brutally honest, certain sections of the economy are unlikely to re-vitalise for some time. Construction / Groundwork companies are operating at minimum strength and only really using agency staff on contracts that only last as long as the job they're carrying out.

 

So, suggesting a way of developing a new skill-set in a field that interests the person is exactly what the JCP ought to be doing, especially if it increases the person's chance of finding work - I'm not sure if the initial suggestion of retail working came from the job centre worker or if it's just an example but there's literally hundreds of different things that can be learnt by volunteering and by taking the initiative and finding something before you happen to be mandated you get complete control of the situation.

 

In some respects, mandated volunteering isn't volunteering of any sort, hence it becomes mandatory work activity. Quite why someone would choose to be mandated when the option was there to choose your own placement I'm not sure. I'd sooner find something that was of genuine interest to me, or in a field I could identify with than being shoehorned into an organisation I felt was of limited use.

[think about it]

well i have emailed Bradford council saying i am willing do do any part time voluntary work.such as litter picking waste recycling any sort of manual work. i wont work in a charity shop. its not me. i like to work alone. they emailed me back saying they will be in touch shortly.

 

 

Have a look here, it's most definitely not just shop work http://www.volunteeringbradford.org/

[Lapsed Workaholic]

I agree, Volunteering under threat of sanctions is to some extent morally wrong.

 

Thats why I advocate anyone out of work should find their own charity to volunteer for before being referred by the job center. It keeps you doing something and acts as a preventative measure against forced workfare.

 

Remember that if you find your own position there are no rules in regards to how many hours etc you have to do. And I believe you can argue that as you are already in a volunteering position that it makes you less likely to benefit from MWA

You accept that "Volunteering under threat of sanctions is to some extent morally wrong”.

How can you advocate in the next breath that claimants should volunteer with a charity of their own choice simply and specifically to avoid a threatened sanction?

You would be basically be putting the noose round your own neck to save them the trouble of doing it.

 

 

[SabreSheep]

You accept that "Volunteering under threat of sanctions is to some extent morally wrong”.

How can you advocate in the next breath that claimants should volunteer with a charity of their own choice simply and specifically to avoid a threatened sanction?

You would be basically be putting the noose round your own neck to save them the trouble of doing it.

 

 

 

Read the full quote i answer that.

 

finding and setting up your own position takes the job centre out of it. You have control and you wont be policed and you could avoid being referred for MWA

[think about it]

You accept that "Volunteering under threat of sanctions is to some extent morally wrong”.

How can you advocate in the next breath that claimants should volunteer with a charity of their own choice simply and specifically to avoid a threatened sanction?

You would be basically be putting the noose round your own neck to save them the trouble of doing it.

 

 

 

At least by taking control of the situation you avoid the inevitable.

 

Choose where, when, how with whom and get genuinely beneficial experience or let someone choose for you and mandate your attendance to boot. Hardly equates to a trip to the gallows.

[Lapsed Workaholic]

well i have emailed Bradford council saying i am willing do do any part time voluntary work.such as litter picking waste recycling any sort of manual work. i wont work in a charity shop. its not me. i like to work alone. they emailed me back saying they will be in touch shortly.

 

When I went through the farrago of "DIY Volunteering" I was told to go to the library where I would find a council flunky who would put me on a register of volunteers.

 

The flunky turned out to be a numpty with little or no experience of the world of work.She showed me a book full of prospective positions where volunteer were needed. NHS, schools council and care homes etc. I registered with the added comment that I was prepared to volunteer or try any position for which I was suitably qualified.

I explained that I did not have the experience or the qualifications in most of the areas she proposed I volunteer for. I asked why, if those posts were available, were they not filled with the people who volunteered, and would have to have the necessary skills and qualifications anyway in the first place, and keep them on as paid employees. Answer came there none.

That was over a year ago. I have heard nothing from them since.

 

Neither did it prevent them from forcing me onto MWA.

[Lapsed Workaholic]

In the Cait Reilly case that lass found herself a voluntary position doing work that would enhance her chosen career.

 

That did not prevent her from being mandated to work at Poundland when it suited the Jobcentre to do so.

 

Not sure where the information can be found to support the claim that the claimant is in control or has the freedom to choose.

[SabreSheep]

I think you will find her case waswon on the technicality that she should not have been told her poundland placement was mandatory.

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/workfare-ruled-illegal-court-appeal-1705844

 

She said: “Those two weeks were a complete waste of my time as the experience did not help me get a job.

“I wasn’t given any training and I was left with no time to do my voluntary work or search for other jobs.

“The only beneficiary was Poundland, a multimillion-pound company.

"Later I found out that I should never have been told the placement was compulsory.

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/workfare-ruled-illegal-court-appeal-1705844#ixzz36uS0x2pW

 

ALso it has just ruled that the retrospective legislation rushed in after that case breaches Human Rights Act and therefore the saga continues.

 

http://refuted.org.uk/2014/07/04/workfarebreacheshumanrights/

 

REMEMBER their own guidelines and principals stated that there must be "benefical reasons" for a referal to MWA. By organising your own volontary placement you actually remove a whole host of reasons you can be referred for.

[Lapsed Workaholic]

I think you will find her case waswon on the technicality that she should not have been told her poundland placement was mandatory.

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/workfare-ruled-illegal-court-appeal-1705844

 

She said: “Those two weeks were a complete waste of my time as the experience did not help me get a job.

“I wasn’t given any training and I was left with no time to do my voluntary work or search for other jobs.

“The only beneficiary was Poundland, a multimillion-pound company.

"Later I found out that I should never have been told the placement was compulsory.

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/workfare-ruled-illegal-court-appeal-1705844#ixzz36uS0x2pW

 

ALso it has just ruled that the retrospective legislation rushed in after that case breaches Human Rights Act and therefore the saga continues.

 

http://refuted.org.uk/2014/07/04/workfarebreacheshumanrights/

 

REMEMBER their own guidelines and principals stated that there must be "benefical reasons" for a referal to MWA. By organising your own volontary placement you actually remove a whole host of reasons you can be referred for.

 

Your contention was that the claimant who chose their own placement was in control and would not be policed and could avoid being referred to MWA.

 

I used this case to illustrate that that contention is not necessarily so.

 

Whatever Reilly was or was not told or whatever she said or did not say does not alter the fact that she chose her own placement and volunteered of her own volition to work there for nothing for all the good reasons that placements are supposed to be for, to improve her prospects of getting a job.

 

What followed was that she was not left in control, she was policed and she was referred to a MWA placement.

 

That aspect of this case can’t possibly support your contention; in fact it shows that the exact opposite is the case and that was why I used it to illustrate the point.

 

I agree with you that by arranging your own placement you should be able to choose one that you consider to be beneficial to you and that you perceive will meet your own needs. In which case your Jobcentre adviser, through a provider who knows nothing about you, should not need to refer you to a placement of their choosing.

 

The other point about this example is that there was no compulsion involved in the placement that she found and took herself, it was voluntary in every sense of the word, she did not do it to avoid punitive reprisals, whereas there was in the placement at Poundland irrespective of any benefits she may or may not have gained from it.

 

 

 

[SabreSheep]

I read it that she was misinformed and forced to take the poundland position and had to abandon the voluntary placement. Court ruled that she was mandated to take the poundland position and that in her case it was the incorrect decision and she should not have been told it was mandatory for her to abandon her volontary position she had organised herself and instead work unpaid at poundland.

 

Hense it supported my point that if you find your own placement before the jobcenter refer you to MWA it removes the "added benefit" from doing so as you will be covering those bases already. Then if they try to it is like everything else down to you to know your rights and know their rules better than they do.

[Lapsed Workaholic]

I read it that she was misinformed and forced to take the poundland position and had to abandon the voluntary placement. Court ruled that she was mandated to take the poundland position and that in her case it was the incorrect decision and she should not have been told it was mandatory for her to abandon her volontary position she had organised herself and instead work unpaid at poundland.

 

Hense it supported my point that if you find your own placement before the jobcenter refer you to MWA it removes the "added benefit" from doing so as you will be covering those bases already. Then if they try to it is like everything else down to you to know your rights and know their rules better than they do.

 

 

In what sense then was Reilly in control when she could unilaterally be taken off the placement that she arranged for herself and mandated to take one chosen for her?