Are These Road Signs Illegal ?

[fletch70]

Thought you had gone!

 

Just appeal and see where it takes you

[citizenkain]

thats it,the op should appeal and keep a tight watch on the progress of that,make sure it dont get too far out of touch

[rds60h]

If one of you 'experts' would care to check either the Highway Code or directgov site on road signs you will find that the sign shown in this thread is one for

indicting a bus lane at road junction, this case pertains to an infringement at a junction NOT the start at a bus lane as has been put forward as part of a proposed defence.

 

The sign is correct the offence stands.

 

You will find that the sign is compliant, but you will also find out that it is only fully compliant when put in the correct situation, which is when the bus lane is a with flow bus lane with then allows traffic to run alongside the bus lane.

This bus lane is a contra-flow bus lane but positioned on the with flow lane which has made the traffic flow bus only, but there are not any bus only signs.

Also, the regulations state that those black and white information signs of which type the bus lane sign is, should be mounted on the Give Way signpost and not separately opposite the junction.

As I said the sign is compliant but it is the wrong sign for the location.

Anyhow, I have also noticed that the PCN is also non compliant because although it contains the location, date, time and camera lapse times for the alleged offence it does not contain the actual day of the week on the photos which is a legal requirement on all PCNs and apparently is a common fault with many lazy councils that are only interested in the income from these notices and they do not bother correcting the fault because they know most people do not know the regulations and will just pay up in the same way you have been suggesting.

[Michael Browne]

it does not contain the actual day of the week on the photos which is a legal requirement on all PCNs

Surely the date covers this. Which legislation requires the actual day of the week?

[green_and_mean]

Surely the date covers this. Which legislation requires the actual day of the week?

 

2. The device must include a recording system in which—

(a)recordings are made automatically of the output from the camera or cameras surveying the vehicle and the place where a contravention is occurring;

(b)there is used a secure and reliable recording method that records at a minimum rate of 5 frames per second;

©each frame of all captured images is timed (in hours, minutes and seconds), dated and sequentially numbered automatically by means of a visual counter; and

(d)where the device does not occupy a fixed location, it records the location from which it is being operated.

 

No need for the day or the location (unless its a mobile camera), I do wish people would stop giving stupid advice it actually helps no one!!

[rds60h]

2. The device must include a recording system in which—

(a)recordings are made automatically of the output from the camera or cameras surveying the vehicle and the place where a contravention is occurring;

(b)there is used a secure and reliable recording method that records at a minimum rate of 5 frames per second;

©each frame of all captured images is timed (in hours, minutes and seconds), dated and sequentially numbered automatically by means of a visual counter; and

(d)where the device does not occupy a fixed location, it records the location from which it is being operated.

 

No need for the day or the location (unless its a mobile camera), I do wish people would stop giving stupid advice it actually helps no one!!

 

“The BusLane Enforcement Camera Handbook (Second Edition) Provisional” Publication No.41/06 published by the Home Office states:

Chapter5 Operational Requirements ----- 5.1.2

“Everyimage of the offence shall show, in addition to the offending vehicle, in theorder given: the date in days, month, and year, the time in hours, minutes, andseconds, the day of the week, location and frame count from the beginning ofthe recording. The data shall be imprinted on the image or included in theviolation record at the time the offence is recorded.”

Does that help you any ?

[rds60h]

Brigadier, you are wrong. This is from theTraffic Signs Manual (my bold)

 

"15.16 The sign to diagram 962 may be provided onside roads to warn emerging drivers of the presence of a with-flow bus lane on the major road."

"Where there is a banned turn from the side road and this prevents traffic from turning into the major one in the direction of travel of the bus lane,a sign to diagram 962 should not be used."

 

You are absolute correct Michael !!

The important wording in 15.16 is "to warn emerging drivers of the presence of a with-flow bus lane on the major road."

The Borough of Luton TMO (Traffic Management Order) for this bus lane has it designated as a contra-flow, so the sign becomes non-compliant.

[Michael Browne]

The data shall be imprinted on the image or included in the violation record at the time the offence is recorded.

I think the word 'or' means it doesn't have to be on the image

[rds60h]

I think the word 'or' means it doesn't have to be on the image

 

Not only is the day of the week of the alleged offence not on the image it is not mentioned anywhere on the PCN.

[Michael Browne]

Not only is the day of the week of the alleged offence not on the image it is not mentioned anywhere on the PCN.

You're equating the violation record with the PCN. I haven't a clue what is meant by the violation record, but I would have thought if it meant the PCN it would have said PCN

[rds60h]

A Penalty Charge Notice is a notification of a penalty charge for a traffic violation, so I can only assume that to be the record of the violation as you are not issued anything else.

[Jamberson]

A Penalty Charge Notice is a notification of a penalty charge for a traffic violation, so I can only assume that to be the record of the violation as you are not issued anything else.

 

Why would you assume that you are given a copy of everything? It's possible that there is some evidence which you are not given copies of - more images, for example. With a standard PCN there are CEO notes which you are not given. I don't think it's wise to assume, let alone make unqualified declarations of illegality, without finding out first.

[rds60h]

Why would you assume that you are given a copy of everything? It's possible that there is some evidence which you are not given copies of - more images, for example. With a standard PCN there are CEO notes which you are not given. I don't think it's wise to assume, let alone make unqualified declarations of illegality, without finding out first.

 

OK Jamberson, I will concede to your point that I cannot fully qualify the point yet. I will however research it more and I will be stating it as part of my appeal, which hopefully will confirm or disprove the statement.

[green_and_mean]

“The BusLane Enforcement Camera Handbook (Second Edition) Provisional” Publication No.41/06 published by the Home Office states:

Chapter5 Operational Requirements ----- 5.1.2

“Everyimage of the offence shall show, in addition to the offending vehicle, in theorder given: the date in days, month, and year, the time in hours, minutes, andseconds, the day of the week, location and frame count from the beginning ofthe recording. The data shall be imprinted on the image or included in theviolation record at the time the offence is recorded.”

Does that help you any ?

 

Sorry you said it was a legal requirement, not that it was mentioned in a handbook intended for those manufacturing cameras?? The manual gives those making cameras guidance on meeting the type approval criteria it has nothing to do with what is required by law on the footage, a camera system is either approved or it is not. The manual also only applies to automatic systems used outside of london not those operated by a cctv operator.

 

This handbook describes the technical requirements for Home Office type-approval of certain types of bus lane enforcement cameras which are prescribed devices for the purposes of road traffic legislation. The handbook is intended to be a reference for manufacturers wishing to develop or sell existing products for use in the enforcementof bus lanes in Great Britain. The handbook contains not only a list of technical requirements but also guidance on methods of measurement, and the procedures to be followed in seeking type-approval.

The technical procedures described in this document are intended as a guide to manufacturers and their agents. The procedures will be updated from time to time and amended versions of this guide will be issued subsequently.

[rds60h]

Sorry you said it was a legal requirement, not that it was mentioned in a handbook intended for those manufacturing cameras?? The manual gives those making cameras guidance on meeting the type approval criteria it has nothing to do with what is required by law on the footage, a camera system is either approved or it is not. The manual also only applies to automatic systems used outside of london not those operated by a cctv operator.

 

This handbook describes the technical requirements for Home Office type-approval of certain types of bus lane enforcement cameras which are prescribed devices for the purposes of road traffic legislation. The handbook is intended to be a reference for manufacturers wishing to develop or sell existing products for use in the enforcementof bus lanes in Great Britain. The handbook contains not only a list of technical requirements but also guidance on methods of measurement, and the procedures to be followed in seeking type-approval.

The technical procedures described in this document are intended as a guide to manufacturers and their agents. The procedures will be updated from time to time and amended versions of this guide will be issued subsequently.

 

But the fact that the camera does not meet the operational requirement, because it does not record the actual day should therfore render the camera non-compliant.

Because the handbook is for the camera manufacturers guidance does not change the fact that the camera does not meet the prescribed critera of the Home Office.

[Michael Browne]

But the fact that the camera does not meet the operational requirement, because it does not record the actual day should therefore render the camera non-compliant.

May be it's in the violation record instead

[green_and_mean]

But the fact that the camera does not meet the operational requirement, because it does not record the actual day should therfore render the camera non-compliant.

Because the handbook is for the camera manufacturers guidance does not change the fact that the camera does not meet the prescribed critera of the Home Office.

 

Have you actually read the book? So you're saying if the home office have approved a device you are going to challenge their own approval based on a guidance document, where are you going to do this in a judicial review? None of this would have any relevance to a PCN anyway since the camera device simply needs to be approved, not meet the guidance given to suppliers. I have already stated what legally needs to be on a frame of cctv footage, if you think the camera should never have been approved that is your opinion and something you need to raise with the Home office it has nothing to do with a PCN. All this argument is totally pointless anyway as the guidance is for 'automatic' un-manned devices and none of the threads you have accused the Councils of acting illegally refer to un-manned cameras and one is in London which doesn't even come under the legislation used in the booklet (which is clearly stated in it, if you bothered to read it properly).

[rds60h]

The majority of bus lane cameras are automated un-manned cameras, and the one that recorded my wife's alleged contravention was an automated camera, if you had bothered to read it properly you who have also noticed that.

Sorry, because we shouldn't be making remark like that to each other and it achieves nothing.

The majority of PCN of all kinds are issued as a money making exercise and that is illegal !!!

But, the chances of proving that are miniscule and would be fought tooth and nail by the authorities, so we need to find other ways of fighting this injustice and I was putting forward another way in which I hoped we could do this, and hoped to get some input on that subject not attract off the cuff remarks.

[sailor sam]

Can't quite believe that this thread is still rambling on. The OP's question has surely been answered and should be confirmed by an appeal (taking it all the way to the adjudicator if necessary).

[green_and_mean]

The majority of bus lane cameras are automated un-manned cameras, and the one that recorded my wife's alleged contravention was an automated camera, if you had bothered to read it properly you who have also noticed that.

Sorry, because we shouldn't be making remark like that to each other and it achieves nothing.

The majority of PCN of all kinds are issued as a money making exercise and that is illegal !!!

But, the chances of proving that are miniscule and would be fought tooth and nail by the authorities, so we need to find other ways of fighting this injustice and I was putting forward another way in which I hoped we could do this, and hoped to get some input on that subject not attract off the cuff remarks.

 

I didn't realise that you had done a survey of cctv cameras in the uk, or is the fact most are automated something else you have just made up? I would also add that the camera in Stuart st is manned by an operator unless they have changed it in the last few days. Surely if PCNs are just issued to raise money the chances of proving that would not be miniscule as you would have loads of evidence on which to draw that conclusion, unless of course thats not a fact but just your opinion? Maybe if you stuck to facts rather than fiction then you would not be getting 'off the cuff' remarks, you have also given someone else on another thread completely false advice which could actually cost them money if the advice is followed.

[Raykay]

The problem is the signage. The sign prior to the junction is the wrong sign for that location, it is not a bus lane it is a buses only route 7am to 7pm, and there are no signs indicating that, there should be a 'No Left Turn, 7am to 7pm' or similar sign at the junction to indicate the restriction.

 

 

If it was a bus lane, drivers could still turn left as there would be another lane for drivers to use - but not use the bus lane 7am to 7pm.

[green_and_mean]

The problem is the signage. The sign prior to the junction is the wrong sign for that location, it is not a bus lane it is a buses only route 7am to 7pm, and there are no signs indicating that, there should be a 'No Left Turn, 7am to 7pm' or similar sign at the junction to indicate the restriction.

 

 

If it was a bus lane, drivers could still turn left as there would be another lane for drivers to use - but not use the bus lane 7am to 7pm.

 

It has been mentioned before but the OP seems to prefere trying to look clever than getting on with getting his PCN cancelled.

[citizenkain]

I think its a case of the op wanting everyone to agree with him which is impossible really!

[rds60h]

It has been mentioned before but the OP seems to prefere trying to look clever than getting on with getting his PCN cancelled.

 

It was not a case of trying to look clever, it was a case of are there more than one infringements of the regulations occuring ? and then requesting advice about that; but because someone has a bit more knowledge than most on a subject it does not make them infallable, so why make sarky remarks such as "I didn't realise that you had done a survey of cctv cameras in the uk, or is the fact most are automated something else you have just made up?".

I do not just make scurrilous statements I quoted something I had read, although at the moment I am unable to find exactly where that statement come from.

Ref the TheBus Lane Enforcement Camera Handbook, which you state as my use of information being "mentioned in a handbook intended for those manufacturing cameras"

It is also "mentioned" in the Department of Transport's Provisional guidance on bus lane (includingtramway) enforcement in England outside London. November 2005 (revised February 2008).

5.11. Guidance on automatic bus lane enforcement systems is also given by the Home Office Scientific Development Branch (HOSDB) in their publications The Bus Lane Enforcement Camera Handbook – Provisional.

So it is not just some throw away publication as you seem to suggest, as for the Violation record, it is A record containing all the evidence of an offence produced by a bus lane enforcement camera, so maybe it does have some significance.

Anyway I have contacted to Council Parking Services who deal with these PCNs prior to the 14 days reduced "fine" deadline and outlined my concerns about the signage and also the day of the week situation on the PCN and requested that the PCN be revoked and advising them that I am prepoared to continue on to the official appeal hearing and if required onto PATAS, which they have advised me they have received and are now considering the points I have made and will be back in contact with me.

[Raykay]

Just make sure that you know exactly what the legal requirements in your circumstances are, and are able to produce them.

 

 

This may help: www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/2756/contents/made