Suspended from work pending investigation

[Old-CodJA]

Having read through this thread I agree with the last few posts.

 

Whilst the employer may have a right to deal with disciplinary matters internally, where such a serious charge is being pursued they must follow the basic premise of 'innocent until proven guilty'.

 

It is one thing to theorise, but an entirely different matter gathering hard evidence to prove a crime.

 

So far as I can see from your thread, there is no credible evidence that you are the perpetrator of a criminal act. The company's booking office accounting systems appear to be insecure and do not protect the individual in addition to the company's revenue, because from what you tell us, these tickets/records appear to be accessible to anyone within the working area.

 

Such records as a shift balance & remittance, including non-issue records should be sealed with a numbered seal and put in a pouch supplied to each individual for the purpose. This pouch should be placed in a drop-safe or other secure location and only opened and checked by the authorised manager / accounts clerk. This process was established in BR days and many TOCs retain it today.

 

I would follow the suggestion made to play them at their own game.

 

As outlined by firstclassx, go to the British Transport Police and advise that you wish to make a statement in relation to an accusation by your employer that you have committed a criminal act namely theft. If the BTP do not want to get involved because they haven't been called in, demand to know why not from your employer. Ask what hard evidence has been collated and whether statements have been taken from all other parties who may have had access to the shift records / balance sheet / tickets /coupons regarding any discrepancies and the procedures in place.

 

The statement by the manager to the effect that "it is my belief that ML gained financially which constitutes theft" does not amount to hard fact, but is only an allegation. Demand to see the hard evidence that you have gained financially.

 

This is an allegation of a very serious criminal offence which may be found to be wholly unfounded once the 'evidence' is examined properly by an independent arbitor such as the Police.

 

Are you a member of RMT or TSSA ?

Edited August 30, 2012 by Old-CodJA

[Emmzzi]

remember the evidence required for dismissal reasons is much lower than that required by a caught of law so "until proven guilty" does not apply. "balance of probabilities" does.

[Old-CodJA]

remember the evidence required for dismissal reasons is much lower than that required by a caught of law so "until proven guilty" does not apply. "balance of probabilities" does.

 

Absolutely correct, but an accusation of 'theft' is an allegation of a criminal act and the OP is not obliged to accept 'non-evidence' and to leave it at that!

[Emmzzi]

Absolutely correct, but an accusation of 'theft' is an allegation of a criminal act and the OP is not obliged to accept 'non-evidence' and to leave it at that!

 

I think OP would be better served dealing with the job situation first. One giant stressful problem at a time!

 

Unless the employer gets the police involved no action may be necessary there.

[Old-CodJA]

I think OP would be better served dealing with the job situation first. One giant stressful problem at a time!

 

Unless the employer gets the police involved no action may be necessary there.

 

I think you miss the point, the railways are something of a special case. Few other employers have a dedicated Police Force tasked with dealing with criminal offences on the network. If the employer can prove a case of theft they should be putting their evidence.

 

This appears to be a direct accusation of theft being used as a means to discipline and ultimately dismiss (for that's what the disciplinary code calls for if theft is alleged) without hard evidence.

 

Meeting that challenge and asking for the evidence to be examined independently is dealing with the job situation first. No evidence, no allegation, no dismissal.

 

We all know just how hard an Industrial Tribunal can be on employers who do not play by the rules I'm sure and I guess that the employer in this case might be reminded of that fact.

 

If the OP has been leading the Forum on, which I don't believe is so having read the thread, but I accept it is a one sided version of events, then the evidence will be crucial in proving a case for dismuissal.

[altobelli]

I think its very important to keep your union involved at all times in this. I believe the RMT is a pretty strong union and may help ensure that a fair decision is reached. I don't think you'll get dismissed based on what you've said, I don't think the proof is sufficient, it isn't enough to say you could have done it - they need to prove you actually did it.

 

Also, concentrate not just on that you did your job properly, but emphasise any gaps in procedures, etc. which could demonstrate that someone else could be at fault, if you're able to demonstrate that someone else could conceivably have been to blame you can't reasonably be held to be at fault.

 

If the investigation hasn't been thorough enough, bearing in mind the consequences to you of being dismissed for theft, you might be able to get a court injunction to prevent dismissal until any decision was made regarding a police investigation. I think if police declined to take action based on the available evidence, your employer would have a hard time justifiably dismissing you.

[markl1987]

Thank you to everyone for you comments and help, I have been away from the computer for yesterday and this morning but I am about to start getting hold of BTP and preparing notes for myself.

 

I managed to at last get hold of a union rep yesterday (some off sick, some no longer reps etc so took a while) and he has agreed to represent me at the hearing next week. Im going to use the time before the hearing to methodically think and plan my notes and take into account what BTP say along with all of your helpful advice. I contacted the investigating manager as firstly her letter inviting me to the disciplinary hearing didn't have a time I was supposed to attend and secondly to inform her that I had my rep and who it was, after speaking to my rep he informed me that it is down to work and the roster clerks to arrange for him to be released for the hearing and make him available otherwise it might have to be rescheduled.

 

Ill continue to update on here as I hear more and also when I have prepared notes and spoken to the BTP

 

Thank you again to everyone who has helped so far and given me advice

[markl1987]

Having read through this thread I agree with the last few posts.

 

Whilst the employer may have a right to deal with disciplinary matters internally, where such a serious charge is being pursued they must follow the basic premise of 'innocent until proven guilty'.

 

It is one thing to theorise, but an entirely different matter gathering hard evidence to prove a crime.

 

So far as I can see from your thread, there is no credible evidence that you are the perpetrator of a criminal act. The company's booking office accounting systems appear to be insecure and do not protect the individual in addition to the company's revenue, because from what you tell us, these tickets/records appear to be accessible to anyone within the working area.

 

Such records as a shift balance & remittance, including non-issue records should be sealed with a numbered seal and put in a pouch supplied to each individual for the purpose. This pouch should be placed in a drop-safe or other secure location and only opened and checked by the authorised manager / accounts clerk. This process was established in BR days and many TOCs retain it today.

 

I would follow the suggestion made to play them at their own game.

 

As outlined by firstclassx, go to the British Transport Police and advise that you wish to make a statement in relation to an accusation by your employer that you have committed a criminal act namely theft. If the BTP do not want to get involved because they haven't been called in, demand to know why not from your employer. Ask what hard evidence has been collated and whether statements have been taken from all other parties who may have had access to the shift records / balance sheet / tickets /coupons regarding any discrepancies and the procedures in place.

 

The statement by the manager to the effect that "it is my belief that ML gained financially which constitutes theft" does not amount to hard fact, but is only an allegation. Demand to see the hard evidence that you have gained financially.

 

This is an allegation of a very serious criminal offence which may be found to be wholly unfounded once the 'evidence' is examined properly by an independent arbitor such as the Police.

 

Are you a member of RMT or TSSA ?

 

I'm with RMT, arranged my rep now and have just spoken to BTP first contact centre and they are passing on all the details I have given them to the officers who cover my area and told me to expect contact with them in the next few hours to discuss the case.

 

Im hoping I can arrange for one of them to look over it all if not just a decent phone conversation to discuss it all and have some backing on my side

[markl1987]

BTP advice is that it has not been reported to them as of yet, they are not willing to take a statement or really comment on the evidence however I had a long conversation about it with a sergeant who was very helpful, I have spoken to a friend at Surrey Police who advised very much the same. Im going to take advantage of a free half hour with a lawyer on Monday and just get their opinion over everything and get them to look at the evidence I've been presented with and also was advised to speak to CAB who have a specialist session with employment lawyers depending on what else will come up.

 

My key points that I have noted so far are:

 

• There is no evidence to back up the allegation I gained financially from any irregularity (mainly because I didn't but, there is nothing to suggest I did)
  
• The items that are said to be missing are not kept in a secure area, not accounted for regularly(taken 4 months to bring up these issues) and a lot of people have access to these, I have worked out a minimum of 15 staff that work in the office plus managers, contractors, agency staff and maintenance staff
  
• The missing items sit in a tray for 4 weeks where they are then bundled up and filed in boxes then dumped into an unlocked and easily accessible cabinet for a year
  
• There is no evidence to suggest I have taken any tickets to sell on, or taken cash to the value of the missing tickets
  
• No statements or interviews have taken place with any other staff etc that have access to where the missing items are stored
  
• I am innocent and cannot be proven guilty of being involved in an irregularity to gain financially, theft or anything else as I have not done this.
  
• There are many gaps in procedures and items of a cash value (as referred to by the investigating officer) are left out with many people having access to them
  
• I am confident in my role, I know I do my job well and that I am not responsible for the irregularities
  
• Overall, there is a direct accusation of theft being made to discipline me and ultimately dismiss me without any hard evidence
  

Many of these things are from all of your kind comments and help and Im sure this list and notes will get longer and more will be added but this is my starting blocks.

 

My union rep is going to be in touch with me soon as well and going to go over everything I have too

[firstclassx]

Raise a grievance with your HR Dept/Line Manager informing them you went to the BTP police station regarding the allegation of theft and no such allegation had been made. Ask why if they believe theft or fraud has been committed, a criminal offence, they haven't reported this to the police.

 

Also query as to whether your employer has asked their Revenue Protection Inspectors to keep a look out for certain tickets with specific serial numbers matching those that are "missing".

 

The Disciplinary procedure should be suspended whilst the grievance is investigated.

 

If they really have no evidence on you, I'd certainly also be looking into Defamation of character.

 

I'd also say that by the employer accusing you (falsely) of criminal theft, that a "breach of trust and confidence" has occurred, and should you resign, you may have a fairly good case going with constructive dismissal.

Edited August 31, 2012 by firstclassx

[Old-CodJA]

BTP advice is that it has not been reported to them as of yet, they are not willing to take a statement or really comment on the evidence however I had a long conversation about it with a sergeant who was very helpful, I have spoken to a friend at Surrey Police who advised very much the same. Im going to take advantage of a free half hour with a lawyer on Monday and just get their opinion over everything and get them to look at the evidence I've been presented with and also was advised to speak to CAB who have a specialist session with employment lawyers depending on what else will come up.

 

My key points that I have noted so far are:

 

• There is no evidence to back up the allegation I gained financially from any irregularity (mainly because I didn't but, there is nothing to suggest I did)
  
• The items that are said to be missing are not kept in a secure area, not accounted for regularly(taken 4 months to bring up these issues) and a lot of people have access to these, I have worked out a minimum of 15 staff that work in the office plus managers, contractors, agency staff and maintenance staff
  
• The missing items sit in a tray for 4 weeks where they are then bundled up and filed in boxes then dumped into an unlocked and easily accessible cabinet for a year
  
• There is no evidence to suggest I have taken any tickets to sell on, or taken cash to the value of the missing tickets
  
• No statements or interviews have taken place with any other staff etc that have access to where the missing items are stored
  
• I am innocent and cannot be proven guilty of being involved in an irregularity to gain financially, theft or anything else as I have not done this.
  
• There are many gaps in procedures and items of a cash value (as referred to by the investigating officer) are left out with many people having access to them
  
• I am confident in my role, I know I do my job well and that I am not responsible for the irregularities
  
• Overall, there is a direct accusation of theft being made to discipline me and ultimately dismiss me without any hard evidence
  

Many of these things are from all of your kind comments and help and Im sure this list and notes will get longer and more will be added but this is my starting blocks.

 

My union rep is going to be in touch with me soon as well and going to go over everything I have too

 

 

Spot-on Mark, you have all the major issues identified.

 

There are more suggestions that may be of help, but it is important not to overcomplicate things at this stage

 

Good luck and keep us all posted

[honeybee13]

Hello again Mark. I hope you're feeling a bit better about things now.

 

I would just like to voice my appreciation to firstclassx and Old-CodJA for arriving on this thread with rail industry advice for you.

 

Please keep posting to let us know how you are.

 

My best, HB

[lbruk]

Great Markl, good luck

[markl1987]

I too am very greatful to everyone that has commented and sent me advice, Im still very worried about what is going to happen but planning to get myself in order over the next two days and, with my union rep, plan where to go and hopefully end very well. Im very aware of what Firstclass has said and almost expecting to be dismissed but going to build up the strongest possible case on my side that I can and also looking into the grievance mentioned.

 

In my most positive and best outlook I would love to come back here on Wednesday afternoon with news that I will be returning to work asap, hopefully I can pull this off in the real world too!

 

HB I tried to reply to your PM but it says your inbox is full so wouldn't let me send a reply to you.

 

I'll update tomorrow after speaking to the legal advisor and union rep

 

Thank you again to everyone

[honeybee13]

Sorry about my inbox, I cleared it yesterday and hope it hasn't filled up again already. Please try again when you're ready.

 

HB

[markl1987]

Just seen the lawyer and he's looked over the evidence and said its all very circumstantial and doesn't seem to be any hard facts in it all and he said he would be very surprised if I were to be dismissed over what is in the investigation pack. He also advised to put in a grievance about the investigation and also offered to see me again free of charge if things don't turn out well (not sure if that's a positive outlook or not)

 

I've got to swiftly put together my grievance and get it in tomorrow if I go ahead with it but at a bit of a loss as to where to start and if I should focus on that or build it all into my defence at the hearing?

 

Got a horrible feeling in my stomach and just want this to be over now but know I've got to keep up feeling tougher and get through this.

[firstclassx]

Make sure 100% you start it with

 

Dear Mr. Manager

 

PLEASE TAKE NOTE THAT I REQUEST THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION IS PROCESSED AS IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE COMPANY GRIEVANCE PROCEDURE

I request the ongoing disciplinary action is suspended pending the outcome of this grievance so as to allow proper and fair examination of the case.

 

(They will try and bully you into dropping the grievance by saying it can all be looked at DURING the disciplinary etc, which is a bit too late by then).

 

Explain the circumstances of your case, what has led up to this point.

Tell them how you feel about the circumstantial evidence

Tell them how it is making you feel, breach of trust, stress, anxiety, made out to be a common thief - defamation of character

Explain what their flaws in the investigation are

Ask why they have not reported it to the police. Give them dates and times of when you went to the police station to clear your name.

You have to be quite polite, but forceful.

[markl1987]

Getting worried about tomorrow now as I cant get hold of my rep, he said he would call me on Monday or Tuesday as it had to be arranged for him to be released from normal duties to represent me, I have called the office and they said to attend tomorrow as planned allowing about an hour before the time of the hearing. Has got me very worried and didn't really think the union would be adding to my troubles at this late stage!

 

If for some reason he has not been released from duties do I have the right to ask for the hearing to be adjourned and rescheduled for when he is available?

 

I want this to be over so much and firstly I am still in huge fear and expecting to be dismissed and also now worrying that it could potentially be delayed causing me more stress and worry

[honeybee13]

Hi Mark. I'm sorry to hear that and hope the guys will be able to give you some pointers.

 

My best, HB

[markl1987]

Just had a call from my rep, he's not been released from work for tomorrow so is unable to attend despite work being notified on 30th Aug by myself notifying the investigating manager and my rep notifying his roster clerk

 

Work have made no communication with each other to arrange for my rep to be there, I've tried to contact the hearing manager but he didn't answer his phone so a voicemail has been left backed up with an email everything in the voicemail.

 

Its all turning into a huge joke really, 6 weeks off suspended now and finally get to a disciplinary hearing and Ive spent all this time and taken all your advice to prepare myself and they havent even made a call or sent an email at their end,

 

Does anyone have any advice as I really dont want to go to the hearing tomorrow without my rep present

[honeybee13]

I'll try to get some help for you, Mark.

 

When is your meeting please?

 

HB

[Emmzzi]

Mark,

 

first thing am call union HQ and ask for further guidance.

 

It is entirely reasonable to have the meeting postponed until your rep can attend. Any employer not doing so would find it difficult to defend their actions at ET especially when release was soley within their own power. HQ may be able to a) talk to boss or b) send an alternate.

 

I would NOT go in without your rep!

[honeybee13]

Hi Emmzzi, thank you for popping in.

 

HB x

[stu007]

Hi

 

Have to agree with the advice please call the Union HQ ASAP and explain the circumstances of the Rep not being released to attend Disciplinary meeting and that you require a firm date when they will be available.

 

You require this information so that you can ask for a adjourement of the Disciplinary until your Rep is available to attend.

 

Now you also need to inform the Chairperson of the Disciplinary Meeting of your request for an adjournment to the meeting and your reason for the request.

 

After that it is really out of your hands and they will either accept or deny your request.

[Emmzzi]

Do also put the request in writing, keep a copy and cc it to the union HQ. Which may put them off playing silly arses with you! Email ok, paper good too. Verbal - no. Ask for thier reason why not in writing also.