Head teacher doesn't want me to park on zig zag lines

[Germish]

I am just battling with my Village Primary school about the headteacher trying to stop me parking on a zigzag line behind a LDV large School bus

 

The headteacher is trying to send me away and uses the point of safety for school children but tells me that the school bus has her permission to park there.

 

WRONG the law says no vehicle must park or stop there and even makes reference to that it includes school buses.

 

This is very logic because they are even larger than cars hence it's even more difficult to see past them.

 

Furthermore, there is no law saying that a school is entitled to zigzag line in front of the school.

 

Regulation says they are there to enable safe crossing.

In my case I can ask safe crossing where to on the opposite side is no pavement but only a private drive of a pensioner couple and a 30 degree angled narrow grass verge.

 

You cannot walk on there and nobody does. Indeed everyone crosses the road well outside the zigzag lines.

 

Furthermore there must be an upright sign at the beginning and end of the zigzag lines stipulating when it is in force Usually twice a day for 30 minutes.

In front of my school aren't any.

 

If these aren't there, any ticket issued can successfully contested in court as the zigzag zone does not comply with the law it isn't one.

Hence you could consider counter suing for damages and compensation the police who should not have issued the ticket in the first place.

 

If my school makes it a legal zigzag zone remains to be seen as this would eliminate any parking for the school bus.

 

Btw. The law does not forbid parking opposite the zigzag line on the other side of the road.

Logical because it does not obstruct the children unobstructed view on traffic.

 

If despite everything they put up a zigzag line in front of my primary school

I will need to see where to object on the ground of it necessity at all.

[Jamberson]

Why don't you just co-operate with the school and park somewhere else? You do understand that any vehicle parking near a school entrance could result in a child not seeing oncoming traffic?

 

The school bus may park there wrongly, but two vehicles will cause double the hazard.

[sailor sam]

Germish, please start your own thread.

[dx100uk]

I am just battling with my Village Primary school about the headteacher trying to stop me parking on a zigzag line behind a LDV large School bus

 

The headteacher is trying to send me away and uses the point of safety for school children but tells me that the school bus has her permission to park there.

 

WRONG the law says no vehicle must park or stop there and even makes reference to that it includes school buses.

 

This is very logic because they are even larger than cars hence it's even more difficult to see past them.

 

Furthermore, there is no law saying that a school is entitled to zigzag line in front of the school.

 

Regulation says they are there to enable safe crossing.

In my case I can ask safe crossing where to on the opposite side is no pavement but only a private drive of a pensioner couple and a 30 degree angled narrow grass verge.

 

You cannot walk on there and nobody does. Indeed everyone crosses the road well outside the zigzag lines.

 

Furthermore there must be an upright sign at the beginning and end of the zigzag lines stipulating when it is in force Usually twice a day for 30 minutes.

In front of my school aren't any.

 

If these aren't there, any ticket issued can successfully contested in court as the zigzag zone does not comply with the law it isn't one.

Hence you could consider counter suing for damages and compensation the police who should not have issued the ticket in the first place.

 

If my school makes it a legal zigzag zone remains to be seen as this would eliminate any parking for the school bus.

 

Btw. The law does not forbid parking opposite the zigzag line on the other side of the road.

Logical because it does not obstruct the children unobstructed view on traffic.

 

If despite everything they put up a zigzag line in front of my primary school

I will need to see where to object on the ground of it necessity at all.

 

and ALL because people are too lazy too WALK!!

 

cars and school runs should be BANNED..

 

dx

[honeybee13]

Hello there.

 

I've started a new thread for you to avoid confusion on the one you posted on. Please continue to post here.

 

My best, HB

[sailor sam]

If you read through the other thread you originally posted on, you will know my feelings on this subject and why.

 

You seem to know the regs about school entrance markings are so i'm not sure what advice you are asking. If there are no supporting signs then most likely the zig zags are only advisory, meaning that they do not have a TMO. So, as you correctly say, makes them un-enforceable. In my opinion NO vehicles should stop on the markings whether they have a TMO or not. I say this in the interests of the children as I have seen the results in parking on them first hand. As far as the head teacher is concerned, I doubt is he/she has the authority to give the bus 'permission' to park there anyway unless it is actually on school property. If you consider there to be an issue here, my advice is to complain to the school formally in writing and the LA and insist that they record it.

 

In the meantime, I would park else where as 2 wrongs certainly do not make a right in theses circumstances.

[green_and_mean]

I am just battling with my Village Primary school about the headteacher trying to stop me parking on a zigzag line behind a LDV large School bus

 

The headteacher is trying to send me away and uses the point of safety for school children but tells me that the school bus has her permission to park there.

 

WRONG the law says no vehicle must park or stop there and even makes reference to that it includes school buses. 'what law would that be? The restriction is defined by a traffic order which may or may not exempt any vehicle, there is no law that states school buses cannot stop on zig zags'

This is very logic because they are even larger than cars hence it's even more difficult to see past them.

 

Furthermore, there is no law saying that a school is entitled to zigzag line in front of the school.

 

Regulation says they are there to enable safe crossing. what regulation is that?

In my case I can ask safe crossing where to on the opposite side is no pavement but only a private drive of a pensioner couple and a 30 degree angled narrow grass verge.

 

You cannot walk on there and nobody does. Indeed everyone crosses the road well outside the zigzag lines.

 

Furthermore there must be an upright sign at the beginning and end of the zigzag lines stipulating when it is in force Usually twice a day for 30 minutes.

In front of my school aren't any. Then there is no 'law' that states the bus cannot park there making your earlier point....pointless

 

If these aren't there, any ticket issued can successfully contested in court as the zigzag zone does not comply with the law it isn't one. If the ticket is issued by the Police it would depend on the offence used parked causing an obstruction for example doesn't need signs, if the PCN is Council issued it doesn't go to Court.

Hence you could consider counter suing for damages and compensation the police who should not have issued the ticket in the first place. Complete and utter tripe!

 

If my school makes it a legal zigzag zone remains to be seen as this would eliminate any parking for the school bus. It is already a 'legal' zig zag the signs are not mandatory.

 

Btw. The law does not forbid parking opposite the zigzag line on the other side of the road.

Logical because it does not obstruct the children unobstructed view on traffic.

 

If despite everything they put up a zigzag line in front of my primary school

I will need to see where to object on the ground of it necessity at all.

 

You sound like a lovely person who worries more about the parking facilities for your car than the safety of the local children it must be a nice car to be worth more to you than a childs life!?

[assisted blonde]

If the school bus is parked there it will be to enable the children to board and disembark the bus near to the entrance which is for safety. Why on earth do you think you should park there? are you incapable of walking along the road to meet your child and escorting them safely back to your car?

I dont know what advice you expected from this forum but the only advice I would give is get a life, there are more important things to worry about than looking at ways to object to a zig zag line ouside a school how about putting your efforts into fundraising for the school and working with rather than against the headteacher.

[huggys boss]

Is it silly season again already?

[maroondevo52]

No real !!!

[Germish]

Hi green_and_mean

 

Not sure about your comments, sounds to me that you are a bit lazy.

I do my homework, verifying my statements before I publish them.

It was the same in this case and I did this sometimes in December last year.

All the info is available online from government departments websites and some driving instructor forums. There has some extension to the highway code which clarifies been added some time ago. It is called RTRA (Road Traffic Regulation Act) of 1984. and Highway Code rule 238.

In this it says that a zigzag zone must have paint of a certain colour and on a vertical post displayed validity sign where the zone starts and stops and the times. (because unlike for hospitals it is NOT a permanent no stopping/parking zone)

I seam to remember that the reference to no school busses was either made on the DVLA website or on the driving instructors organisation forum. Entering ZIG ZAG and School buss into google should give you the required results.

I cannot and will not do your homework for you to start searching again. If you had reasons to question my statements you should have done exactly that and when you had contracting information to my statement post the link to prove me wrong. And not the other way around.

I am not sure what you say about the council vs police powers. In the end I can contest any ticket from either of them in court if I think the have unjustified been issued contradicting existing law.

 

To give you a teaser what you could have found in less than 15 seconds. (Cannot post link as I don't have 10 posts yet .... so add what is logic in front of the following truncated link) portsmouth.gov.uk/living/652.html

Good enough to be official from a local authority website it confirms already most of what I said.

accompanying signs with time

show the marking to be in yellow paint

if the marking is in white paint even if it has the accompanying sign any issued ticked will be thrown out in court by a judge.

There has been plenty of time since 1984 for local authorities to old style white school zig zag lines without sign. They simply are NOT a legal sign any more. Hence you cannot be fined.

 

Finally the law clearly says NO vehicle for a reason... visibility. That includes school busses, rubbish collecting lorries, supplying vehicles to the school and also POLICE Cars unless there is an emergency (if a gun men or similar is threatening staff or pupils). A visiting police car as I saw in front of a school to tell pupils about what the police does is not an emergency and should be reported if it is parked there illegally because even in pursuit of it's community obligation it still can park in a different place, which it must by law.

So, green_and_mean, if you think some of my facts are wrong, please supply the evidence to back up your critic.

[stu007]

Hi

 

Well where i live you would have a very very hard time getting out of any parking ticket issued for parking on Zig Zag lines.

 

You can quote all the Regulations you want park there get ticket try to take to court council win why.

 

The Councils Legal Team and the Council have used polices and Bylaws to No Vehicle can park on Zig Zag Lines the only exemption is School Buses or the Express Permission of the School.

 

Why are you so adament at putting School Children at risk by parking on these anyway or does your child have some special need to be chauffer drive directly behind a School Bus on Zig Zag lines.

[Germish]

It's a matter of principle that the law applies to everybody the same and it clearly says no vehicle shall park in the zone. I will comply to the law but I expect the council to do this too. I pay £1800 per year for the council to update their 20 year old building to the latest "must have" but they cannot make sure that their own stuff complies to the law, but want me to live a life respecting authority and laws. What happens to leading by example and fairness?

It is not my fault when many people just want to go home, be complacent and just accept whatever is asked of them.

I personally will not accept "Little Hitlers" demanding me to fall in line when they don't have the authority and themselves, especiall as they are public employed or civil servant who get paid from the taxes of my hard earned money.

This primary school is in a Cotswold which has 58 children in 3 official classes. Two years in one class. The only cars which drive along the school lane are the parents who bring and pick up their children from school. The village traffic is on a completely different road.

 

I will continue within the law to be awkward, to force people of administrative power who directly can bring about changes to pull out their finger. I consider this to be my civil duty.

 

I think that there has been enough time since the RTRA of 1984 to insist that the Law and regulation is implemented as intended. After all I cannot drive my car for even a moth without MOT or Tax.

 

The regulation is there for a reason, to eliminate a law vacuum of interpretation, The upright signs at the beginning of the zone are there to indicate that there is a zone even if the road markings are covered by snow and because the council does not bother clearing this away cannot be seen.

Just imagine there are invisible road markings with no upright sign to tell you about the beginning and end of the zone. What then?

I know there are not visible markings below the snow. So is it OK to give me a fine because I know they are there?

What happens if I am ill and ask my cousin from South Africa to drop of my children at their school? Should he get a ticket because he does not know that there are markings below the snow?

Is it correct to leave this decision if I get a ticket or he does get one in the hands of a traffic warden or police man?

Most certainly NOT. It would give some people to much unmissable power and more Little Hitlers would spring up in all walks of life.

It is for this reason that facts count and laws and regulation stipulate standard. If you cannot see it being there you cannot be fined. It is irrelevant if the person should know if there are markings below the snow.

Hence the road traffic markings have to be in accordance with existing law or they simply aren't valid. If local authorities are concerned about it, it's up to them to ensure that nothing covers road markings or that the paint is not worn away.

This has nothing to do with the safety of children. Nobody in their right mind disputes this.

 

In our school most parents accept that the school bus parks there and believe this is a correct no parking zone and park instead on the junction of the where the school lane joins the village road. Thus creating a far more dangerous situation were clearly because it is a road junction no parking is allowed within and a few metres in front from any direction. Twice a day there are at least 10 cars parked there completely illegal and nobody not even the police does anything about this. There have been several near misses of even smaller pre-school toddlers with no road sense who get unloaded with their older siblings when they are brought or collected from school.

 

So far my civil unrest has caused the school to send out three newsletter, to write a bullying letter to me and another one from the school governor. A telling off of a person informing me that she is the community police officer, but she wasn't wearing a uniform nor did she have identification (but I know she is). I did challenge her to come back when she is on duty and issue me with a ticket. In a further 3 month of parking in the none legal zone it has not happened.

 

However a comity with the intention of resolving the parking issue around the school has been founded. The first meeting was held 3 weeks ago and parents were invited to contribute their views. The only person present where the School Governor, the Parish Councillor myself and the head teacher who kicked it all of by trying to chase me away, excused herself as she had to fill in teaching. She continues to try to chase me away because nobody filled her in. No other parent even considered to join although whatever is done effects them.

Well I am proud of what I do and did. Finally after 28 years (RTAR of 1984), the ball got rolling to tackle a growing parking problem and I will continue to be a living nightmare to some and kick some ... until I have achieved what I want.

[esmerobbo]

Zig Zags, painted pink with yellow spots, signed or unsigned, if there is a school there and children are crossing don't park there! Why do we need the wrong or rights of any traffic regs when common sense should tell you not to park where it may make it difficult for children to be SAFE!

 

PS: that goes for the school bus as well!

[dx100uk]

why must there any zig zags at ALL - common sense for safety means you should not stop there

 

rather selfish ......WALK!!!

 

dx

[sailor sam]

OK, lets take a look at what we are talking about. Can the OP give us the location/name of the school etc so we can check street view.

 

I'll reserve my opinions/comments until then.

[tiredTraveller]

how about 'stop being a selfish and lazy and walk that last 10 metres'? You'd curse everyone else for being a hazard to your kids, so what exactly gives you the right to do it to everyone elses?

[Germish]

Since we all live together in a community which gets larger than a community 200 years ago (most people barely ever got out their village in their life), there have to be guidance on how to live together. This has to be my laws and regulations to ensure fairness as much as possible. Since people by nature are trying for loopholes in the law to gain unfair advantage these regulations and laws have to be very comprehensive, regularly updated and closely followed and policed. That's a fact of life.

Ref. to the school. There is no street view of it as the Google camera car never went down this non -private school lane just along the village road. and even Satellite view is useless as you cannot see anything from the trees covering it.

Between the road and the school building is the private car park for teachers only as has been pointed out, and I with my disabled badge who cannot walk more than 25 meters, am not allowed to park on what quote "is a perk for staff being employed at the school". Never mind that it is 3-4 times bigger than their are cars, yet because of a difficult upwards sloping access and the general shape not suitable for a LDV small school bus to use it twice a day. However the Denis fire-engine was parked on their when they demonstrated it to the pupils. But it did block the 4 cars of the teachers.

Of course children are not let in and out through the front entrance which is for special important guests only but have to kind of use the servants back entrance at the back of the school to collect children personally.

By the time I get there I can barely move my legs any more because my asthma prevents me from getting enough oxygen fast enough to my muscles to use them for extended periods.

I could however park opposite the zig zag line which is perfectly legal. But the school bus parked in the non legal existing zig zag lines prevent me from doing this as it would be impossible for other cars to get through.

So I am left with little choice if I don't want to park 100 metres away.

They have got to either admit that the existing marking does not comply with existing regulation since 1984 and hence the school bus and I are allowed to park there. Or they make it a legal zone which means that ANY vehicle there stopping or parking is committing an offence which attracts 3 points and £70 instant fine.

I am all for it, as I could park on the opposite side of regulation conform zigzag line because the school bus is too forced out of the zone and hence my car parked oposite will not block the road because cars could get through. Jus oast the school the lane becomes single vehicle with but there is a very wide and long council owned lawn area which easily house a 10 car parking lay by.

But if you don't lit a fire under some people's buttocks they will not move away from the position they held 30 years ago. And if they eventually would it would be to late for me.

So I force the issue by not giving in and using the existing law against the authorities themselves and myself staying within the law while they might be braking it or have to make the required changes.

 

I do not disagree in principle with how nice it would be if we don't need all the regulation and act upon common sense and the safety of pupils is most important.

But the school won't let me park on their car park, nor will they let out the school children to the front main entrance so I am left with little other choice but to react to unreasonable and uncompromising behaviour towards myself. They thought that was the end of it and while many people just would have rolled over I choose not to, thinking that there always is more than one way to skin a cat. This is the way I am walking along now and it is starting to show results, which at the end will be of benefit to everybody there

 

I cannot see anything wrong this. It might not be your way and that's fine too. But I would think "Don't dare to even think of judging what I do, if you yourself do not contribute, haven't got a clue and I am not finished yet." (the "YOU" here refers to the people I deal there in this school parking issue and NOT you here in the forum)

 

There is not much else to say, I won't move away from my believes because I am convinced it's the right thing to do. If you have a different opinion that is your prerogative and I would fight for you being able to voice your opinion without being flamed for it.

[sailor sam]

You've obviously got a very big bee in your bonnet about this. The problem is as I see it. is that your attitude will be seen as conflictive which normally achieves nothing apart from sometimes coming back and biting you on the behind in the long run.

 

If you are disabled, I see no reason why an arrangement cannot be made to allow you to drop off your child in the school car park if there is sufficient space. But perhaps you have already burned your bridges with the head teacher with your 'campaign' and such an arrangement is now not possible.

 

No one on here can really give any useful opinions without understanding the location and we can't do that without seeing it. As I said previously, if there are no signs, then the zig zags are probably advisory. You could check with the LA to see if there is any traffic order in place for them. At the same time, you could bring the matter to their attention to see what their take is on the situation.

[Germish]

Read my posts correctly! I only acted after I got some posh, arrogant nose up, eyes down reply on who can use the school car park.

Right ... I pay your salary and with 3 children of mine in a village school of 48 of which most like me come from the town next to your village, you depend on us and other town parent. Just my 3 children provide the school with an added budget entitlement of approx. £30000 from the government which is a lot of money for a small village school fighting to keep open.

NO CHILDREN ARE CROSSING within the white illegal zig zag zone which has the length of two ldv Mini busses only. The words "Enable safe crossing" is used in the law regulating these zones. Now "crossing means you cross something (in this case from a pavement, over a road onto an opposite pavement or walkable surface). The only surface beyond the opposite curb is a 50cm grass verge at an angle of about 45degrees followed by a dry stone wall. You cannot walk there. Therefore one cannot be crossing a road, hence no safe crossing requirement is necessary, One could only step onto the road and walk along it. Hardly a safe think to do which makes a mock of zig zag line intention to be there in the first place. All children leave the school via the drive way (which is outside the marked zone) of the school employees only car park. As this is much closer anyway to where most people illegally park there car inside the T-junction with a centre triangular little island and a single tree. Picture the school lane joining the village road as a "Y" creating a large T junction or is there something like a Y-junction. Any way there is no parking within a junction by law and all parked there park illegally and endanger children's lives.

I don't do any of this.

On what you call advisory zigzag. Not legally enforcable. Advisory is what the word implies. This is an advice, not a command and certainly not enforceable law. One is free to follow an advice or not.

If somebody tell me that I cannot park there because my vehicle obstructs the view, the same applies to the school bus and even worse as it is far higher and more boxy (no flat bonnet). So this reason is simply invalid to me as two different measures are used. For the reason to become valid the school bus will have to be parking somewhere where he does not obstruct children's view on passing road traffic.

END OF.

[sailor sam]

Thank you for the information/lesson. Good night.

[assisted blonde]

Germish I suppose you dont have much support from other local parents and have you thought of how difficult you can be making the situation for your children at the school, dont supposed you have but most children especially in a small local school will soon become aware of their parents falling out with the teachers/head teacher and it can make things very uncomfortable for them. In my opinion we could all spend time looking at regulations and challanging things but most of us save our energies for important things. You are coming over in your posts as arrogant and argumentative not the best way to sort anything out, if you keep on like this you will probably find that you are fairly much oustracised by the school and other parents and this will affect your children. if you want support for you campaign i would suggest you contact some loony far left extremists, sadly for you, most people on this forum are decent normal human beings with a modicom of common sense, somthing you appear to be lacking. this is my last comment on the matter as I feel there is nothing that any rational person can say to you to make you see the ridiculous nature of this argument.

[Jamberson]

if you want support for you campaign i would suggest you contact some loony far left extremists

 

Or some loony far right extremists. They key word is "loony" - it has nothing to do with right or left.

[assisted blonde]

Point taken just that most people say loony left sorry figure of speech. If i offended anyone I amend this to Loony right, Loony Middle of the road or just plain Loonies.

" Disclaimer other opinions are availible"

I think this subject has seriously affected my brain could it be April 1st has arrived early and I havent noticed ?

[green_and_mean]

Hi green_and_mean

 

Not sure about your comments, sounds to me that you are a bit lazy.

I do my homework, verifying my statements before I publish them.

It was the same in this case and I did this sometimes in December last year.

All the info is available online from government departments websites and some driving instructor forums. There has some extension to the highway code which clarifies been added some time ago. It is called RTRA (Road Traffic Regulation Act) of 1984. and Highway Code rule 238.

In this it says that a zigzag zone must have paint of a certain colour and on a vertical post displayed validity sign where the zone starts and stops and the times. (because unlike for hospitals it is NOT a permanent no stopping/parking zone)

I seam to remember that the reference to no school busses was either made on the DVLA website or on the driving instructors organisation forum. Entering ZIG ZAG and School buss into google should give you the required results.

I cannot and will not do your homework for you to start searching again. If you had reasons to question my statements you should have done exactly that and when you had contracting information to my statement post the link to prove me wrong. And not the other way around.

I am not sure what you say about the council vs police powers. In the end I can contest any ticket from either of them in court if I think the have unjustified been issued contradicting existing law.

 

To give you a teaser what you could have found in less than 15 seconds. (Cannot post link as I don't have 10 posts yet .... so add what is logic in front of the following truncated link) portsmouth.gov.uk/living/652.html

Good enough to be official from a local authority website it confirms already most of what I said.

accompanying signs with time

show the marking to be in yellow paint

if the marking is in white paint even if it has the accompanying sign any issued ticked will be thrown out in court by a judge.

There has been plenty of time since 1984 for local authorities to old style white school zig zag lines without sign. They simply are NOT a legal sign any more. Hence you cannot be fined.

 

Finally the law clearly says NO vehicle for a reason... visibility. That includes school busses, rubbish collecting lorries, supplying vehicles to the school and also POLICE Cars unless there is an emergency (if a gun men or similar is threatening staff or pupils). A visiting police car as I saw in front of a school to tell pupils about what the police does is not an emergency and should be reported if it is parked there illegally because even in pursuit of it's community obligation it still can park in a different place, which it must by law.

So, green_and_mean, if you think some of my facts are wrong, please supply the evidence to back up your critic.

 

I am apparenlty far too lazy to bother backing up my points but I am both City and guilds and BTEC qualified on the subject so probably know slightly more about parking legislation than you or someone on a driving instructor website, but who cares anyway if you think you are correct who am I to disagree?