About 30 cars a day might just pass the school which includes the teacher and parents who only drive up to it and away from but not necessarily pass it. Lollipop person and zigzag zones are over kill and bloddy mindedness to have ione in front of the scholl when it serves absolutely no purpose whatsever. The road CANNOT BE CROSSED THERE IS JUST A STEEP GRASSVERGE ON THE OTHER SIDE YOU CAN NOT WALK ON. If at all children walk on the car lane itself. This defeats any yellow zone. To assisted blonde. I cannot believe that you suggested to change it because my children are only there for another few years. Why change anything at all as you will hardly live longer than 80 years. To only care about what happens behind ones own castle doors and otherwise stick the head into the sand is an attitude which lets other people who don't do this, decide how you have and will have to live your life.

But briefly here is something worth to take to Ann Whittaker BT (yet again) If you are on quarterly billing (more obvious there but worked on monthly too) You have to pay line rental in advance as well as Broadband if you are with them. I paid 3 months in advance I believe it was in November. In February I get a bill saying something about an increase in charges. Oh well this is life. But when I look closely I can see that they have refunded me what I paid for two of the 3 month and have re-invoiced these two month at he higher rate. I think the difference for both month was somewhere between £4-8. Hangon I though, I prepaid this. They have sold me the line rental for a certain price which I paid. Deal closed and finished. They cannot come along on their next bill and tell me that I have to pay more for the month gone and paid for. So I called INDIA. The person did not want to refund anything and could not understand basic laws of business and this actually amounts to fraud and theft if they don't refund the difference immediately. i was getting nowhere so I insisted of speaking to BT support in England, he tried to fob me of to speak to his supervisor, keep insisting to speak to support in England .. .it is your right.... "One moment please"... " I could convince my supervisor and on this occasion we refund the difference. I have the money now. But the sickness feeling comes when thinking deeper. How many customers does BT have? Don't know 35Million? Let's think conservative How many of those have quarterly bills? 10 Million maybe 10 Million have been charged £4-8 extra makes £40,000,000 to 80,000,000 fraudelent, braking common civil and trading law obtained by BT How many will complain about it. Lets just say 1% (I actually believe the figure is to high) Of those 100,000 maybe 1 in 4 is persistent enough to get the £4-8 refund that's 25,000 x £4 to £8 = £100,000 to £200,000 refunded it's a drop in the ocean considering that BT made themselves a cool £40 -£80 Million to which they are not entitled but is in there coffers. This make any bank robber look like an amateur. Why risk life and limb, your own and other peoples and end up in prison if unlucky for life if .. YOU could simply be BT and rob the money legally with almost no risk. Like having your own money printing machine. If you get caught, blame it on some logistical error, pay the money back and that is it. Isn't the boss normally responsible for what employees do and should he not have the tools in place to ensure they don't do what is wrong and most certainly not what amends to little less than plain robbery. So put him away for 20 years. It will be exemplary and never happen again. Or at least fine BT 10 x the amount they were to gain. I think shareholders would find a responsible person to remove if they lost £400-£800 Million pounds on a non tax deductible fine which comes directly out of the profit/dividend

At assisted blonde Posh, good education? They probably think they had, but just got dragged along. Holding a plum in your mouth while speaking is hardly an academic qualification. Posh is a state of mind and a well developed inferiority complex (see Thatcher before and after her election to Prime Minister) No, my children do not suffer, I can gage this from all the blue achievement rewards, head teacher's rewards and governors rewards they bring back home and from their achieved levels in various subjects. The head teacher has been told on numerous occasions that I am very impressed with her professional performance as teacher and head teacher bringing the primary school to such a high quality that pupils leaving the school to go to secondary school have better academic results than nearby Rendcomb College which costs £3000/term (day-no boarding). She very well knows that I always give credit were credit is due and negative critics when deserved. I have no time for pretend behaviour and false politeness. I have been teaching Geology students at uni Petrography and Mineral Chemistry and after early retirement due to disability the odd hours at the local Secondary just to give a little back to society. Anyway we both are professional and it did not even to be mentioned that a disagreement on one subject would effect the rest of our prof. relationship. It goes without saying. Why this forum? Well accidental. I first answered another tread where somebody has been fined for parking on a zigzag zone and wanted to know of a way out. I just gave information on the possible way out because some zones have been update to comply with the RTRA of 1984 and some (like at my school) still haven't. 28years obviously just isn't enough to get the job done if you have to ask to many people who all have a say, nicely. There have been judges ruling that issued fines/ tickets are not valid on the technicality that these zones have not been updated and hence cannot be considered a zone for which you can be fine for parking in in the first place. In the eyes of the laws they do simply not exist. Neither side disputes its necessity. But some people here could just not keep the necessity of laws to be defined and followed correctly by both sides (people need to know where they stand and rely on that the same law is fair and applies to people in the same way) separate from the issue that they are good because they protect children. Hence my post got flamed and took it's own direction. A moderator made an own thread of it. Lobbying MP, had bad experience with this. Did it nicely for a friend, because he did not want to arouse any attention. He came, talked, promised, more people came, talked, had meetings, promised more, had more meetings with some other people, architects plans drawn up, planning permission granted and a date for work to be done for an extension to his council house (disabled daughter needs a downstairs bathroom and bedroom instead of being carried up and downstairs). Took two years, than a sudden answer that as we have now entered a recession, there is no money to fund this. We think that there never was an intention and the process was dragged out until an excuse could be found. But my friend was not prepared to take the counsel to court as he thought they would find ways to make his life more difficult especially if he wins. AT Laughing Girl Answered your second part of post already. Large institutions ... I agree. It's not the small village school, it really is Cotswold Council and in Road and Police Issues it's actually Gloucestershire Council (and they are not this small)

All it's takes is for the existing non compliant zig zag zone to be made compliant according to the road traffic act amendment of 1984 by putting up a vertical sign at both end showing the times when the zone is active. When this is the case the dangerously parked school bus can legally be made to NOT park where children's and passing drivers view is obstructed by it. I will make sure that happens. I will not park in an legal zigzag zone, but so will NOBODY else. My own parked car is my lever and to highlight and force the issue right now within existing law and not to have to wait another 28 years (which have passed since 1984) for it to be made a legal zone. The head teacher does not like the school bus to have to park somewhere else but in front of the school. The consequence is that the school will also have to spend some money on redesigning the staff car park including a disabled parking space to accommodate a waiting school bus and for the parish council to accommodate for the traffic by parents from outside the village by changing the road layout which still is the same since horse-drawn carts and create some parking spaces nearby. This will cost money, but I pay £1800 in council tax per year feeding a lot of fat cat local politicians. Now is the time to do something for the people who pay and elect them. The Cotswold are one of the richests areas in England. They should have no problem to find what it might cost (£25,000) to create a parking layby for 10 cars on a gras bit right next to the lane thus simply widening it. It's all fairly simple and what I am doing to force issues and changes should come natural to those who are thinking they have done their job so far. Clearly they haven't and they don't like to be told that. I wouldn't even be here talking about it nor would I be parked up in front of the school if they had. If they don't want to have to answer questions like... how it comes that I am parked in front of the school and even the police can't do anything about it? .... they better find a solution. I know were I stand legally and I will keep up the pressure to achieve a safer traffic situation around the school. With hindsight people involved will a gree that it was the right thing to do, while some might disagree about my methods. I am NOT afraid of confrontation like some and I'll keep coming in the best British Bulldog Spirit. It's amazing how it speeds up bureaucrats.

Loony ? thank you for the compliment Humanity and society at any level, only ever has progressed by the thoughts and actions of those, who are different than those of the usually narrow-minded herd.

Read my posts correctly! I only acted after I got some posh, arrogant nose up, eyes down reply on who can use the school car park. Right ... I pay your salary and with 3 children of mine in a village school of 48 of which most like me come from the town next to your village, you depend on us and other town parent. Just my 3 children provide the school with an added budget entitlement of approx. £30000 from the government which is a lot of money for a small village school fighting to keep open. NO CHILDREN ARE CROSSING within the white illegal zig zag zone which has the length of two ldv Mini busses only. The words "Enable safe crossing" is used in the law regulating these zones. Now "crossing means you cross something (in this case from a pavement, over a road onto an opposite pavement or walkable surface). The only surface beyond the opposite curb is a 50cm grass verge at an angle of about 45degrees followed by a dry stone wall. You cannot walk there. Therefore one cannot be crossing a road, hence no safe crossing requirement is necessary, One could only step onto the road and walk along it. Hardly a safe think to do which makes a mock of zig zag line intention to be there in the first place. All children leave the school via the drive way (which is outside the marked zone) of the school employees only car park. As this is much closer anyway to where most people illegally park there car inside the T-junction with a centre triangular little island and a single tree. Picture the school lane joining the village road as a "Y" creating a large T junction or is there something like a Y-junction. Any way there is no parking within a junction by law and all parked there park illegally and endanger children's lives. I don't do any of this. On what you call advisory zigzag. Not legally enforcable. Advisory is what the word implies. This is an advice, not a command and certainly not enforceable law. One is free to follow an advice or not. If somebody tell me that I cannot park there because my vehicle obstructs the view, the same applies to the school bus and even worse as it is far higher and more boxy (no flat bonnet). So this reason is simply invalid to me as two different measures are used. For the reason to become valid the school bus will have to be parking somewhere where he does not obstruct children's view on passing road traffic. END OF.

Since we all live together in a community which gets larger than a community 200 years ago (most people barely ever got out their village in their life), there have to be guidance on how to live together. This has to be my laws and regulations to ensure fairness as much as possible. Since people by nature are trying for loopholes in the law to gain unfair advantage these regulations and laws have to be very comprehensive, regularly updated and closely followed and policed. That's a fact of life. Ref. to the school. There is no street view of it as the Google camera car never went down this non -private school lane just along the village road. and even Satellite view is useless as you cannot see anything from the trees covering it. Between the road and the school building is the private car park for teachers only as has been pointed out, and I with my disabled badge who cannot walk more than 25 meters, am not allowed to park on what quote "is a perk for staff being employed at the school". Never mind that it is 3-4 times bigger than their are cars, yet because of a difficult upwards sloping access and the general shape not suitable for a LDV small school bus to use it twice a day. However the Denis fire-engine was parked on their when they demonstrated it to the pupils. But it did block the 4 cars of the teachers. Of course children are not let in and out through the front entrance which is for special important guests only but have to kind of use the servants back entrance at the back of the school to collect children personally. By the time I get there I can barely move my legs any more because my asthma prevents me from getting enough oxygen fast enough to my muscles to use them for extended periods. I could however park opposite the zig zag line which is perfectly legal. But the school bus parked in the non legal existing zig zag lines prevent me from doing this as it would be impossible for other cars to get through. So I am left with little choice if I don't want to park 100 metres away. They have got to either admit that the existing marking does not comply with existing regulation since 1984 and hence the school bus and I are allowed to park there. Or they make it a legal zone which means that ANY vehicle there stopping or parking is committing an offence which attracts 3 points and £70 instant fine. I am all for it, as I could park on the opposite side of regulation conform zigzag line because the school bus is too forced out of the zone and hence my car parked oposite will not block the road because cars could get through. Jus oast the school the lane becomes single vehicle with but there is a very wide and long council owned lawn area which easily house a 10 car parking lay by. But if you don't lit a fire under some people's buttocks they will not move away from the position they held 30 years ago. And if they eventually would it would be to late for me. So I force the issue by not giving in and using the existing law against the authorities themselves and myself staying within the law while they might be braking it or have to make the required changes. I do not disagree in principle with how nice it would be if we don't need all the regulation and act upon common sense and the safety of pupils is most important. But the school won't let me park on their car park, nor will they let out the school children to the front main entrance so I am left with little other choice but to react to unreasonable and uncompromising behaviour towards myself. They thought that was the end of it and while many people just would have rolled over I choose not to, thinking that there always is more than one way to skin a cat. This is the way I am walking along now and it is starting to show results, which at the end will be of benefit to everybody there I cannot see anything wrong this. It might not be your way and that's fine too. But I would think "Don't dare to even think of judging what I do, if you yourself do not contribute, haven't got a clue and I am not finished yet." (the "YOU" here refers to the people I deal there in this school parking issue and NOT you here in the forum) There is not much else to say, I won't move away from my believes because I am convinced it's the right thing to do. If you have a different opinion that is your prerogative and I would fight for you being able to voice your opinion without being flamed for it.

It's a matter of principle that the law applies to everybody the same and it clearly says no vehicle shall park in the zone. I will comply to the law but I expect the council to do this too. I pay £1800 per year for the council to update their 20 year old building to the latest "must have" but they cannot make sure that their own stuff complies to the law, but want me to live a life respecting authority and laws. What happens to leading by example and fairness? It is not my fault when many people just want to go home, be complacent and just accept whatever is asked of them. I personally will not accept "Little Hitlers" demanding me to fall in line when they don't have the authority and themselves, especiall as they are public employed or civil servant who get paid from the taxes of my hard earned money. This primary school is in a Cotswold which has 58 children in 3 official classes. Two years in one class. The only cars which drive along the school lane are the parents who bring and pick up their children from school. The village traffic is on a completely different road. I will continue within the law to be awkward, to force people of administrative power who directly can bring about changes to pull out their finger. I consider this to be my civil duty. I think that there has been enough time since the RTRA of 1984 to insist that the Law and regulation is implemented as intended. After all I cannot drive my car for even a moth without MOT or Tax. The regulation is there for a reason, to eliminate a law vacuum of interpretation, The upright signs at the beginning of the zone are there to indicate that there is a zone even if the road markings are covered by snow and because the council does not bother clearing this away cannot be seen. Just imagine there are invisible road markings with no upright sign to tell you about the beginning and end of the zone. What then? I know there are not visible markings below the snow. So is it OK to give me a fine because I know they are there? What happens if I am ill and ask my cousin from South Africa to drop of my children at their school? Should he get a ticket because he does not know that there are markings below the snow? Is it correct to leave this decision if I get a ticket or he does get one in the hands of a traffic warden or police man? Most certainly NOT. It would give some people to much unmissable power and more Little Hitlers would spring up in all walks of life. It is for this reason that facts count and laws and regulation stipulate standard. If you cannot see it being there you cannot be fined. It is irrelevant if the person should know if there are markings below the snow. Hence the road traffic markings have to be in accordance with existing law or they simply aren't valid. If local authorities are concerned about it, it's up to them to ensure that nothing covers road markings or that the paint is not worn away. This has nothing to do with the safety of children. Nobody in their right mind disputes this. In our school most parents accept that the school bus parks there and believe this is a correct no parking zone and park instead on the junction of the where the school lane joins the village road. Thus creating a far more dangerous situation were clearly because it is a road junction no parking is allowed within and a few metres in front from any direction. Twice a day there are at least 10 cars parked there completely illegal and nobody not even the police does anything about this. There have been several near misses of even smaller pre-school toddlers with no road sense who get unloaded with their older siblings when they are brought or collected from school. So far my civil unrest has caused the school to send out three newsletter, to write a bullying letter to me and another one from the school governor. A telling off of a person informing me that she is the community police officer, but she wasn't wearing a uniform nor did she have identification (but I know she is). I did challenge her to come back when she is on duty and issue me with a ticket. In a further 3 month of parking in the none legal zone it has not happened. However a comity with the intention of resolving the parking issue around the school has been founded. The first meeting was held 3 weeks ago and parents were invited to contribute their views. The only person present where the School Governor, the Parish Councillor myself and the head teacher who kicked it all of by trying to chase me away, excused herself as she had to fill in teaching. She continues to try to chase me away because nobody filled her in. No other parent even considered to join although whatever is done effects them. Well I am proud of what I do and did. Finally after 28 years (RTAR of 1984), the ball got rolling to tackle a growing parking problem and I will continue to be a living nightmare to some and kick some ... until I have achieved what I want.

Hi green_and_mean Not sure about your comments, sounds to me that you are a bit lazy. I do my homework, verifying my statements before I publish them. It was the same in this case and I did this sometimes in December last year. All the info is available online from government departments websites and some driving instructor forums. There has some extension to the highway code which clarifies been added some time ago. It is called RTRA (Road Traffic Regulation Act) of 1984. and Highway Code rule 238. In this it says that a zigzag zone must have paint of a certain colour and on a vertical post displayed validity sign where the zone starts and stops and the times. (because unlike for hospitals it is NOT a permanent no stopping/parking zone) I seam to remember that the reference to no school busses was either made on the DVLA website or on the driving instructors organisation forum. Entering ZIG ZAG and School buss into google should give you the required results. I cannot and will not do your homework for you to start searching again. If you had reasons to question my statements you should have done exactly that and when you had contracting information to my statement post the link to prove me wrong. And not the other way around. I am not sure what you say about the council vs police powers. In the end I can contest any ticket from either of them in court if I think the have unjustified been issued contradicting existing law. To give you a teaser what you could have found in less than 15 seconds. (Cannot post link as I don't have 10 posts yet .... so add what is logic in front of the following truncated link) portsmouth.gov.uk/living/652.html Good enough to be official from a local authority website it confirms already most of what I said. accompanying signs with time show the marking to be in yellow paint if the marking is in white paint even if it has the accompanying sign any issued ticked will be thrown out in court by a judge. There has been plenty of time since 1984 for local authorities to old style white school zig zag lines without sign. They simply are NOT a legal sign any more. Hence you cannot be fined. Finally the law clearly says NO vehicle for a reason... visibility. That includes school busses, rubbish collecting lorries, supplying vehicles to the school and also POLICE Cars unless there is an emergency (if a gun men or similar is threatening staff or pupils). A visiting police car as I saw in front of a school to tell pupils about what the police does is not an emergency and should be reported if it is parked there illegally because even in pursuit of it's community obligation it still can park in a different place, which it must by law. So, green_and_mean, if you think some of my facts are wrong, please supply the evidence to back up your critic.

I am just battling with my Village Primary school about the headteacher trying to stop me parking on a zigzag line behind a LDV large School bus The headteacher is trying to send me away and uses the point of safety for school children but tells me that the school bus has her permission to park there. WRONG the law says no vehicle must park or stop there and even makes reference to that it includes school buses. This is very logic because they are even larger than cars hence it's even more difficult to see past them. Furthermore, there is no law saying that a school is entitled to zigzag line in front of the school. Regulation says they are there to enable safe crossing. In my case I can ask safe crossing where to on the opposite side is no pavement but only a private drive of a pensioner couple and a 30 degree angled narrow grass verge. You cannot walk on there and nobody does. Indeed everyone crosses the road well outside the zigzag lines. Furthermore there must be an upright sign at the beginning and end of the zigzag lines stipulating when it is in force Usually twice a day for 30 minutes. In front of my school aren't any. If these aren't there, any ticket issued can successfully contested in court as the zigzag zone does not comply with the law it isn't one. Hence you could consider counter suing for damages and compensation the police who should not have issued the ticket in the first place. If my school makes it a legal zigzag zone remains to be seen as this would eliminate any parking for the school bus. Btw. The law does not forbid parking opposite the zigzag line on the other side of the road. Logical because it does not obstruct the children unobstructed view on traffic. If despite everything they put up a zigzag line in front of my primary school I will need to see where to object on the ground of it necessity at all.