Box Junction PCN - New Kings Road j/w Bagleys Lane

[benn133]

Whether or not the stopped within the box is completely irrelevant IMO.

 

This is a T-junction and not a crossroads; AFAIK, for a T-junction, the box may not cover the entire width of the carriageway (see TSRGD).

 

I would therefore suggest that no contravention occurred due the the unlawfulness of the road markings

 

ufortunately LBHF have recieved special authorisation from the Department of Transport for the box junction in question

[lamma]

Does the junction match the special authorisation ?

[patdavies]

ufortunately LBHF have recieved special authorisation from the Department of Transport for the box junction in question

 

OK, second front.

 

On the reverse of the PCN it starts "The Act overleaf"; unfortunately no Act is quoted on the front. (a series of Acts is).

 

Also, in the grounds for representations, they instruct you to tick one box. This has been previously held to be fettering your decisions.

 

They seem to reword the statutory grounds to suit themselves; fetter your grounds under without consent to stolen only, under I was not the owner you are must state to whom you have sold the vehicle - this PCN has been sent to the RK who is assumed to be the owner, thus there is no option for the RK to name the owner.

[green_and_mean]

, under I was not the owner you are must state to whom you have sold the vehicle - this PCN has been sent to the RK who is assumed to be the owner, thus there is no option for the RK to name the owner.

 

 

(5) Where the ground mentioned in sub-paragraph (4)(a)(ii) above is relied on in any representations made under this paragraph, those representations must include a statement of the name and address of the person to whom the vehicle was disposed of by the person making the representations (if that information is in his possession).

(6) Where the ground mentioned in sub-paragraph (4)(a)(iii) above is relied on in any representations made under this paragraph, those representations must include a statement of the name and address of the person from whom the vehicle was acquired by the person making the representations (if that information is in his possession).

[benn133]

Does the junction match the special authorisation ?

 

i dont know, and i dont know how to find out. Do you know how to find out?

[lamma]

get a copy of the special authorisation from the DfT . see if the YBJ (and any other signage specified in the auth if any) complies.

 

i.e. play snap.

[benn133]

get a copy of the special authorisation from the DfT . see if the YBJ (and any other signage specified in the auth if any) complies.

 

i.e. play snap.

 

Lamma im new at this what does YBJ stand for

[Michael Browne]

Lamma im new at this what does YBJ stand for

Yellow Box Junction

[benn133]

case went to adjucidactor and i won, details will follow shortly, if anyone is fighting a PCN on this junction please contact me directly

[patdavies]

(5) Where the ground mentioned in sub-paragraph (4)(a)(ii) above is relied on in any representations made under this paragraph, those representations must include a statement of the name and address of the person to whom the vehicle was disposed of by the person making the representations (if that information is in his possession).

(6) Where the ground mentioned in sub-paragraph (4)(a)(iii) above is relied on in any representations made under this paragraph, those representations must include a statement of the name and address of the person from whom the vehicle was acquired by the person making the representations (if that information is in his possession).

 

G&M,

 

I iknow that this was a few months ago now, but you entirely miss my point.

 

The assumption that the RK is the owner is rebuttable in law; this PCN does not give any grounds for such rebuttal - only buying or selling.

 

Consider this scenario:

 

I am the RK of vehicle A

I am not the owner of vehicle A

A PCN is issued for a box junction offence by the driver of vehicle A

The PCN is sent to me as RK

I need to be able to inform issuing authority that I am not the owner and thus not liable.

[Harpera123]

case went to adjucidactor and i won, details will follow shortly, if anyone is fighting a PCN on this junction please contact me directly

 

Hello Benn133

 

I can send you a personal message yet as this is my first post.

I recently received a ticket for the same yellow box junction you mentioned on this post (New King’s Road/Harwood terrace) – i was travelling from west to east and heading further down the New Kings Road.

 

You mention that if anyone else needed help to contact you directly. Please can you let me know how you managed to have this over turned? Any help or advise would be appreciated.

 

Kind regards,

[7doublebogey]

Benn133. Well done!! Just read your case history - and it is pretty much identical to mine which ocurred last week (21/1/11). I however crossed the line (slightly) with my front wheels on teh south west side of the box before stopping the car entering the box any further (ie once I realised it was a yellow box and had no clear exit). I don't live around there and was slightly lost. Seems petty to me for the LA to enforce a ticket when I was clearly trying to avoid blocking the YBJ. Any advice welcome as to which arguments you used to win...?

[wuhdyl]

Hello all , I have today found out that I am victim of the cameras at the same juntion , namely New Kings Road and Bagley lane, I have read with interest the thread and was looking for grounds fo appeal , I had a quick look on streetview and can see that the box markings do not go up to the kerb but stop at the double yellows , would this mean that the box does not meet the requirements if the RTA.

 

I cannot remember the incident and the photo they sent is the same as everyone else got and it shows nothing of the box or where I was in it so I may have to go for the DVD!

 

Any help would be appreciated

[Mista Weava]

case went to adjucidactor and i won, details will follow shortly, if anyone is fighting a PCN on this junction please contact me directly

 

 

Hi Benn, can you PM me please?

 

I have insufficient posts ot PM you as have only just signed up.

 

My wife has been accused of the same alleged contravention as you were.

 

I am interested to know how you won your appeal,

 

Thanks,

 

Richard

[MARTIN3030]

Please note-info sharing by means of pms denies the wider CAG community and those following.

Please keep things in the thread.

[mangifee]

Hi All

This thread is very interesting, and prompted me to get involved

I have been recently caught at money box junction and when presented with the very well documented Notice with the the still picture of a video, I opted to challenge the council as to the validity of the accusation, as a clipped still from a video doesnt show a moving traffic offence, the council made it very very clear to me, if i wished to view the video evidence that the council relied upon to secure a successful claim, I would have to appeal to PATAS (whom are rumoured to be independent, as i said "rumoured") and upon appealing i will be forfeitting my opportunity to settle at 50% of the charge, i challenged this stating that i cannot just roll over and play dead, i MUST see for myself that i have actually committed an offence, but no, it was repeated by everyone i spoke to, even managers, i insisted to no avail, to the point i explained that i work for a company that pools vehicles, so we need to verify who was driving, but no!!! amazingly PATAS support this

 

I have appealled this relying upon 2 points, that the video supplied exonerated me and that the box junction is in fact questionable, a vehicle departing from the traffic lights turning right onto new kings road , actually turn right AFTER entering the box, this can be proven with pictures from Google maps, a vehicle will pass a green light, cross a white line and enter the box, midway accross the box you will turn right onto new kings road

 

THE HIGHWAY CODE SAYS A DRIVER MAY STOP IN A BOX JUNCTION IF THEY ARE TURNING RIGHT, THIS BOX JUNCTION IS EXTREMELY CLEVERLY POSITIONED

 

HandF have disputed anything i have stated saying as a driver i ought to learn the methods of city driving!!

 

I have requested under FOI the freedom of information act information from the council regarding the revenue created by this box and all others owned and operated with cctv by HandF and the information is shocking,

 

Details of FOI/EIR case

Reference: 347557 Received: 03/05/2011 Closed: 19/05/2011

Request summary:

Box Junctions which are monitored by CCTV.

Request details:

1. The number and locations of all other box junctions monitored by cameras in H&F.

2. In respect of each of these (and the junction at Talgarth Road and Butterwick) the total amount raised by PCNs for the 12 months ending 31st March 2011.

 

Response:

Box Junction - Butterwick and Hammersmith Road £180

Box Junction - Fulham Rd and Jerdan Place 0

Box Junction - Harwood Rd j/w Effie Rd £10,860

Box Junction - New Kings Rd j/w Bagleys Lane £869,257

Box Junction - Shepherds Bush Green - east end 0

Box Junction - Shepherds Bush Green j/w Goldhawk Rd 0

Box Junction - Shepherds Bush Green j/w Goldhawk Rd 0

Box Junction - Talgarth Rd j/w Butterwick - £390,275

Box Junction - Wood Lane j/w Du Cane Road 0

Box Junction - Wood Lane j/w South Africa Road 0

Box Junction - Hammersmith Rd j/w Shepherds Bush Rd 0

Box Junction-New Kings Rd j/w Wandsworth Bdge Rd £3,000

 

You will note the highlighted box junction and its outrageous revenue, box junctions are meant to be in place to assist the flow of traffic NOT generate a funding for a council, THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS

 

I cannot provide the online link until i post 10 times however i can provide it to anyone who pms me

 

I have notified the council that although PATAS insist i ought to pay the amount of £130.00 i am refusing, Hand F are stating i need to pay within 28 days or the charge will be increased by 50%

 

I will prefer to go to prison rather than pay this

[Cazzad27]

Hi

I received a PCN for stopping in a box juction New Kings Rd j/w Bagleys Lane and in fact it is New Kings Rd j/w Harewood Terrace.

I have attached the picture which is on the front of the PCN, which clearly shows that I am not in the box junction, they cannot fine with an incorrect infromation can they?

Please can I have a reply asap.

[mangifee]

I am currently fighting mine with the council they were able to convince PATAS that the summons should stand but I feel patas are biased towards people like ourselves

After viewing the freedom of information request a councillor I concerned at the validity of the box as when leaving backers lane to enter new kings road is a right hand turn which effectively acceptable in the highway code regs

I am also trying to get BBC watchdog interested in this hammersmith and fulham money making box

[yesjus]

hi, just got a pcn for this junction! reading the thread and could do with a bit of advice! first of all where did you get hold of the cctv pictures? My picture barely shows my location so need to see more before i appeal as i cant remember driving through it at all, im not from the area you see! Also i have just moved address and i havent been able to change my vechile details yet so by the time i got my mail from my old address i had missed the 14 day pay period! Do you think i would have grounds to to appeal paying the full charge because of this? Thanks alot!

[Bluffalow]

As above! I have just received a PCN for the same offense at the same box junction. My main question is as to the validity of the box. wuhdyl above quotes that the box does not meet the kerb and is therefore invalid. Is that true? Also, another poster states that the junction is not between New Kings Road and Bagleys Lane but between New Kings Road and Harewood Terrace - is this right?

I am from Portsmouth and was only in the area that day. I didn't realise how easily the exit from the box could become blocked and I got caught. I'm not really disputing that I did commit the offense as stated (because I can't remember) but I do think it is a very unfair penalty and seems to be just a money earner for the council - surely the £869,257 figure for this one junction which breaks down to at least 6,686 people being caught and fined for the same offense at the same junction shows that something is wrong?

[jimmyc182]

Anyone had any success appealing PCN for the Yellow Box junction at New kings Road j/w Bagleys Lane?

 

Please private message me or re-post to this thread any success stories or advice for appeals. Thank you!

 

I am in the same situation as a number of you, not from the area but certainly have enough sense not to sit in a YBJ, the fine that came through the post shows a totally useless photo of the YBJ behind me, doesn't look like I am in it.

 

Sounds like a nice little earner for the H and F council, surely not right.

[jimmyc182]

Be great to hear how you won this appeal, any chance you could post details? like a number of others have replied, I am new to the forum and do not have enough posts for the private message function. many thanks

[jimmyc182]

case went to adjucidactor and i won, details will follow shortly, if anyone is fighting a PCN on this junction please contact me directly

 

Be great to hear how you won this appeal, any chance you could post details? like a number of others have replied, I am new to the forum and do not have enough posts for the private message function.

 

many thanks

[honeybee13]

Anyone had any success appealing PCN for the Yellow Box junction at New kings Road j/w Bagleys Lane?

 

Please private message me or re-post to this thread any success stories or advice for appeals. Thank you!

 

I am in the same situation as a number of you, not from the area but certainly have enough sense not to sit in a YBJ, the fine that came through the post shows a totally useless photo of the YBJ behind me, doesn't look like I am in it.

 

Sounds like a nice little earner for the H and F council, surely not right.

 

Hello jimmy and welcome to the forum. The point of the site is to give advice on the forum and not by PM, unless there are good reasons to keep it confidential. As long as you don't give information that could identify you, you should be fine making posts the normal way.

 

My best, HB

[GrumpyJ]

I didn't realise how easily the exit from the box could become blocked and I got caught.......[it] seems to be just a money earner for the council....

 

I totally sympathize with everyone who's got done at this Box Jn. I received my £ 65 PCN on 1/9/11 and I've appealed. H&F have rejected my appeal and so I'm due at PATAS in February. But the fine is now £ 130 if I lose ! Like Bluffalow I'm not denying I was in the box - their pictures show I was in it for 9 secs, and I just tagged in at the end.

BUT this box is a trap - the exit from the box has only room for 5 cars or so and the traffic lights are out of phase. So you get green on New Kings Road west of the box, but Red at NKR/Harwood Rd - and this lasts for 32 secs.

So I also question the validity of the box, and I've supplied PATAS with my own videos (!) and photos. I cycled up there a few weeks ago, and saw many people get trapped in the box - it's a real con.

Mangifee, like you said H&F are making a shedload of money from this junction - it would be really good if you could get BBC Watchdog interested - I reckon the more publicity the better.....

Edited December 19, 2011 by GrumpyJ