not returning deposit, deposit not protected

[willie nelson]

thank you. you have been a great help

[willie nelson]

ok....first... thanks so much for your help so far.

now what happened:

firstly the judge said that there would be no decision that day. she immediately seemed to be on the side of the landlady...

so really i ended up with more questions than before. we were given three weeks to sort out evidence and my reply to the chaotic mixed up documents produced by the landlady, some of which i still hadn't seen on the day. the judge asked me if i had everything, i replied i didn't know, she was impatient with me as i tried to explain that i knew other documents were referred to that i hadnt seen, but that logically i couldnt really say what i hadnt got but i could only say what i had got!! argh! so maybe i got it maybe not.

So? the defence was 1) that i agreed not to protect the deposit and 2) that i wasnt the tenant when i made the claim. the judge said that had yet to argued when i said the act clearly states an agreement is not possible.

its now part seven process.

says she's going to get arbitration service to contact us. for me i'm not interested in that, she'd had her chance and she's still got our deposit after three months! but that'll make me look bad maybe...

how should i deal with the defence?

the letters of lies from the two estate agents that were trying to sell the flat are nothing to do with the case. they just try to make us look like nightmare tenants, written to serve her purposes now; it really disgusts me and i wish now i hadn't ever let them in my flat!! liars! and i have email correspondence that proves one letter is total lies! how much should i be distracted with this?

also:

should i submit documents with a written explaination of what they prove, or should i save the explanation for the day to keep it a surprise?

what in the act says, or are there precedents to say, i can make the claim after i am the tenant?

should i try to discredit her version by attacting her inconsistencies where i find them, eg. in her defence statement she says we lied about my girlfriend being pregnant when we met, she says that we said she was 2 months pregnant. actually she was 7 1/2 months. what reasonable person would think that?

do i go into an explanation of how the relationship broke down?

and i have made the claim for breach of tenancy deposit scheme... is it possible that at the end i can lose that, and still not get my deposit back because i have not claimed for non return of deposit?

i will leave this post at that for the moment, i am using a french keyboard that's half broken so excuse the errors! i'm sure i will have more questions.

i can hardly express how helpful you have been.

thank you.

[xoAmyox]

On the point of them claiming you were not the tenant when you brought the case, this is something that some Judges believe means you cannot claim for the non-protection penalty (certainly in my area of the country at least). However, I feel it reasonable to counter this with a simple logic argument; if you are the tenant, then you are not able to claim your deposit back as you are still within the tenancy. Therefore, in order to be able to claim the deposit back, you cannot be a current tenant, so when returning your deposit to you (or part thereof) the Judge must (as it says in the legislation) ALSO order the penalty for non-protection. You cannot have one without the other, so as long as your deposit (or part thereof) is due to you, the penalty must be enforced.

I am not a solicitor, however I have seen this used on other forums and was the advice given to me by my solicitor (my claim hasn't got to court yet).

[Webranger]

Willie, I hope you were a bit more coherent in court than here, because you have left me rather confused."Three weeks to sort out evidence" is not recognised legal speak.

 

In fact what she seems to want is a Reply to the Defence. Process is that you have made a Claim, LL has made a Defence, now you have to Reply to that. That means write a Reply document and file it (send it to both court and Defendant).

 

From what you say, LL seems to have produced lots of documents, which she shouldn't do at this stage. There are two types of Defence statements or documents - relevant and irrelevant.

 

Take the latter first - that is those that have nothing to do with the claim, they are just mud thrown at the wall, dust kicked into the air. Refer to them and say that xxx is not true but has no relevance to whether or not the deposit was protected so I don't intend to deal with them. "It doesn't matter whether I have hoofs and horns and a forked tail and eat letting agents for breakfast, I still have the right to have my deposit protected. (If there is a counter-claim this paragraph will be modified).

 

Then deal with the matters which are relevant.

Quote Section 213 Housing Act 2004

213Requirements relating to tenancy deposits

(1)Any tenancy deposit paid to a person in connection with a shorthold tenancy must, as from the time when it is received, be dealt with in accordance with an authorised scheme.

(2)No person may require the payment of a tenancy deposit in connection with a shorthold tenancy which is not to be subject to the requirement in subsection (1).

 

Say that this means that even if you HAD agreed to non-protection - and the claim is untrue - the law is clear that the LL had no right NOT to protect. The key word is "must."

 

But anyway, attach the email you quoted here on 28th July which admits receiving the deposit and not protecting it. Your failure to reply does not mean you accepted non-protection and you had no legal right to accept. Shortness of tenancy has no relevance anyway; you could actually stay for 6 months even if you signed for less because that is what the Act allows.

 

But you did rely on her promise to return it - a promise which she has broken.

 

The second Defence is fatuous. If accepted it would make a nonsense of the whole procedure. The Defence argument is that when the Act says:

214Proceedings relating to tenancy deposits

(1)Where a tenancy deposit has been paid in connection with a shorthold tenancy, the tenant or any relevant person (as defined by section 213(10)) may make an application to a county court on the grounds—

"The tenant" only means a current tenant, but nowhere in the Act does it say that. It doesn't say "tenant or ex-tenant" because it is unnecessary. If the Act was intended to take away from a tenant the rights given in Sections 13-15 once he had vacated the premises, it would have made that clear. Very often a tenant doesn't know that the deposit was unprotected until they leave and ask for its return. Does the Act intend at that most crucial point of all to snatch away from the luckless tenant this new right and to reward a cunning LL?

 

Of course not. In fact the remedy in S.214 (3) a) clearly applies to those who are no longer tenants and the remedy in S.214(3) b) to those who are still tenants. That is precisely WHY there are the two alternative remedies.

 

You can copy most of what I've written here verbatim.

 

Did LL not file a counter-claim?

 

Arbitration will cost you money. To say that a poor tenant who has had their deposit "stolen" should have to pay yet more fees to claim it back is beyond a joke. What is there to arbitrate about? - unless there IS a counter-claim.

 

Look at S.214. It says you may make an application "on the grounds ......" It doesn't say "for" anything in particular but it means "for remedy as ruled in subsections (3) and (4). If your Claim does not make that clear, then along with your Reply, send in an application to Amend the Claim to make it clear.

[willie nelson]

thank you again,

sorry part of the incoherence is that i was using a french keyboard, i had to go away for work!

yes, I mean Reply to Defence. Should i set out my entire argument in my reply to defence or just submit documents i wish to refer to?

part of what threw me at the hearing is that the act could hardly be clearer in saying there is no provision for alternative arrangement, but the judge questioned that.

re counterclaim: she has not filed any claim as such but in her defence she is saying we caused damage to justify her retention of deposit. despite her saying she would keep 380 pounds for damages she still has 780 three months later! that is not a counterclaim is it? again with no evidence at all.

[Webranger]

Yes, set out your argument in full as I outlined yesterday. You cannot bring in new surprise arguments at a later date. But don't produce documents at this stage. I did say yesterday to include the LL's email, but don't even do that. Just say that you didn't accept no protection and there is no legal provision for you to do that. The time for lists of documents will come later.

 

No, she hasn't made a counterclaim, so you can ask the court to dismiss all the stuff about damage and early babies as irrelevant; the Act does not make any provision for such offsetting.(Those are the words to use).

 

It sounds as if you have a pretty clueless judge there, so you'll have to politely educate her - as I did the Circuit Judge, see elsewhere on this forum. In your Reply and verbally in court, write and read out the words of Sections 13 and 14, emphasising the repeated word "MUST."

[willie nelson]

thank you again Webranger, and also thank you too xoAmyox, good luck when you get to your hearing,

...it's a good point made about the tenant/ex tenant arguament... surely the "relevant person" also covers this, as the person who paid the deposit doesnt ever have had to be the tenant anyway, but can still make a claim...

anyway, still more questions:

1) my claim as it stands is just for non compliance with the scheme and doesn't specify that the landlord is still withholding my deposit, should i amend it to include a claim for repayment? (ie. could i get to the end of this and have to pay costs and still not get my deposit?), or would that distract from the main issue?

2) as i don't have many documents that arent already submitted with the claim there's no reason why i dont send everything together is there? i thought i'd include an email exchange that shows that the estate agent is lying in his letter, just in case, even though its irrelevant. i was wondering if it was illegal for him to send lies to be used in court...

can you post a link to your case you mentioned?

the next hearing is two hours, do i expect a decision on the day? do i expect the judge to have read all the evidence already?

thanks again, your help is invaluable..

[Webranger]

Well, if it's set for two hours then it must be a full hearing so revise what I said above and you must send in everything relevant (there seems to be an odd procedure here, but never mind).

 

Your claim must be clear, so it sounds as though you need to submit an Amended Particulars of Claim. Set out clearly what happened, that the LL failed to protect the deposit as required by Sections 13 and 14 of the Housing Act 2004 and also failed to return the deposit, and What you are asking the court to do a) order the LL to return the deposit b) pay you additionally the sum of 3x deposit.

 

Yes, the judge should have read all the documents, but that doesn't mean he/she will have read them. You will have to make sure that your points are fully understood and particularly that, as there is no counterclaim, the LL has no basis for claiming deductions.

 

Point out that IF she had protected the deposit, then that includes a resolution process through which LL CAN claim deductions, but as she failed to protect, she has denied herself the right and cannot now claim it.

[willie nelson]

hi everyone,

I was just browsing and came across the case of Hashemi v Gladehurst Properties Limited. In this case, if I understand correctly, the judge ruled against the claim because the claim was made after the tenant vacated the property. this was overturned by the circuit judge who said it was "obvious upon a full reading of Schedule 10 that the role of the scheme under the Act is every bit as operative after the tenancy has come to an end as during its course.".

The same judge also dismissed another case (Green vSinclair Investments Ltd) because the defendant repaid the deposit before the hearing.

she obviously doesn't like the provisions of the housing act.

I've got the same judge:|!!! the defence is also that I was no longer the tenant when i brought the claim. given that this was overturned by the district judge later, will this judge be able to make the same decision? i get the impression she will find any reason not to award the 3x penalty. what can I do? i submitted my reply to defence today before reading this. thanks everybody again.

 

[Webranger]

Well, well, well, there's a turn-up for the book, you having the same judge.

 

She was quite right to dismiss the Green claim; the tenant had his deposit back so what the hell was he claiming for? The provisions of this part of the Act are draconian and should be used very carefully. In your case you have a LL who cheats and lies so she deserves what she gets; in other cases mere forgetfulness or ignorance is being punished very harshly.

 

The District Judge has to follow what the circuit judge has ruled, but make sure you don't rub her nose in it. She will probably say herself that this defence has been ruled inadmissable, but if not you just have to say, "I understand that the Circuit Judge has ruled in the recent matter of Hashemi ... that this Defence is inadmissable.

 

She won't want to make the same stupid ruling twice. I told you earlier that such a defence was nonsense.

[Webranger]

Well, well, well, there's a turn-up for the book, you having the same judge.

 

She was quite right to dismiss the Green claim; the tenant had his deposit back so what the hell was he claiming for? The provisions of this part of the Act are draconian and should be used very carefully. In your case you have a LL who cheats and lies so she deserves what she gets; in other cases mere forgetfulness or ignorance is being punished very harshly.

 

The District Judge has to follow what the circuit judge has ruled, but make sure you don't rub her nose in it. She will probably say herself that this defence has been ruled inadmissable, but if not you just have to say, "I understand that the Circuit Judge has ruled in the recent matter of Hashemi ... that this Defence is inadmissable."

 

She won't want to make the same stupid ruling twice. I told you earlier that such a defence was nonsense.

[willie nelson]

that'd be a relief.

so a district judge must (always?) follow the decision of a circuit judge ? but it'd only be a legal precedent if it was an appeal court or high court decision, am i right?

when it says "of her own motion" does that mean she just decided herself, without it even being presented as a defence? that's a bit over enthusiastic isn't it? is that normal?

thanks again

[willie nelson]

and sorry another point.

hasn't she already accepted it as a legitimate line of defence in the preliminary 15 minute hearing?

as well as a supposed private agreement, which is explicity stated as not a defence in the act. it could not be clearer! how can i argue against that?

shouldn't she just have said they are not valid defences at the time?

aaaagh!!!

[Webranger]

Only High Court or higher makes legal precedent generally, but if a Circuit Judge makes a decision on a point of law, then the District Judges in that Circuit must abide by it unless and until over-ruled by a higher court. It would be chaos otherwise.

 

"Of her own motion" would appear to mean that she invented this stupid defence so now she's been shot down and would be doubly stupid to raise it again.

 

Maybe the circuit appeal came after your 1st hearing. It wasn't the time to consider defences in depth at the 1st hearing, anyway, so stop worrying, just stick to the script.

[willie nelson]

hi everyone, it's been a while.

after a few adjournments my hearing was meant to be this morning. a day of preparation and stress yesterday. tried to call the court to verify everything but i can never get through, the last attempt i was on hold for 40min before i gave up!

so turned up at the court for the hearing to find that the case has been moved to the defendant landlord's home court in york. apparently an order was sent to me on the 6th jan, but i never received it. *^$££%%!!!

absolutely hopeless! obviously i want to get this over with.

Can I get the case transfered back to london as the claimant? the clerk seemed to suggest that the defendant always has the choice. why has she only done this now?

the court is useless and never sends me stuff they should. really, really frustrated. the defendant has changed her address too but i've not been informed.

thank you. hope you're all well, oh yeah- and happy new year.

[Webranger]

Happy New year to you, too.

 

This is an unfortunate turn-up and even more so with you having no notice of the transfer and adjournment. The first thing is to telephone the court in York and talk to the clerk. Explain what happened today, find out if they have yet set a hearing - unlikely if it is down for 2 hours. Then discuss the chances of transfer back. The idea of hearing being in Defendant's area is that is usually the weakest party, but that isn't really the case here. However, if the property involved was in York, the judge would probably want it heard there - but do ask.

 

When you win the case, LL will have to pay your travelling costs and loss of earnings up to about £50 per day.

 

Incidentally, the principle over return of deposits I championed in court and you mentioned above in Green v Sinclair Investments has now been upheld by the Appeal Court.

[willie nelson]

yes, but that seems unfair. i could be doing all this, all the stress and the expense go to york if i have to, and be given the deposit on the steps of the court and lose the claim. lose costs, interest and everything. and the landlord keeps my money for more than 7 months. i could be deliberately strung along just out of spite... i wouldn't put it past her.

anyway, thanks again for your advice and quick reply. the property is in london. i tried the court today but surprise, surprise, it rang for 10mins with no answer.

try again tomorrow.

thanks.

[stu007]

Hi Willie Nelson

 

Another issue that seems to have been missed her is that your Landlord has also broke the Data Protection Act by giving you an Inventory for the property with the previous tenants details on that form which breaches the Data Protection Act.

[Webranger]

You are being unduly pessimistic here, Willie. If she pays you "on the steps of the court" she might get away with the 3 x penalty but she would still have to pay your costs and interest.

 

If the property is in London, then that is a different matter (Sorry, I had misremembered). You have an extremely good case for asking the York court to send the case back to London - and without you having to travel to York to argue it. Best thing is to Fax a letter to York, explaining that the events and property are entirely a London matter and the fact that the LL lives in York is irrelevant and that she is trying to misuse court rules for her own advantage. Say it would be completely wrong for a London tenant to have to travel to York to claim a deposit which is being held in defiance of the law. I think you'll get the transfer OK.After all, she chose to be LL to a property in London, it's not as if you are a creditor who chose to sell to someone in York.

Edited January 12, 2011 by Webranger
addition needed

[willie nelson]

hi,

for some reason i never saw your last post webranger.

anyway i wrote a letter to the judge asking for the hearing to come back to london but it was ignored. I just wrote a letter sent by email. tho its seems they want me to make an official application (which cost £75). the clerk basically said that the hearing normally goes to the defendants home court. the hearing date has now been set. they have also requested a hearing fee of £300!!

i already paid a hearing fee for the first of the three cancelled hearings in london. that was back in november and that was £25! why the sudden change? the clerk said this is because the size of the claim, but i thought i was technically claiming the original deposit (£780) and requesting the judge to make an order for the compensation of 3x, (which is separate from the "claim").... either way it seems impossible to argue without paying £75 to make an application to the judge...

Should i write again and request that it gets returned to london? or do i just go with it...

yes the flat was in london, nothing to do with york, the landlady just moved there. this seems to get worse every step.

sorry, feeling stressed and frustrated,

thanks again....

[Webranger]

Your problems are verging on the unbelievable, Willie. The latest sounds so bizarre it's difficult to know where to start.

 

at http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/ex50_e.pdf you will see the authorised court fees. For a claim of 4 x 780 = £3,120 the Hearing Fee is £300 WOW, that surprised me. But you do know that you have to win and the LL will have to repay your fees - and your travelling expenses and any loss of wages and overnight stay if it is necessary.

 

You must try again to get the venue returned to London. Have a talk on the 'phone with the court clerk and point out that the business was all done in London and it was the LL's decision to move to York so that makes it an exceptional circumstance and the tenant is normally assumed to be the weaker party.Point out that LL didn't have to pay an application fee to get venue moved, so you shouldn't have to.Also mention that hearing date in London had been set and LL got it moved to avoid losing. If you are insistent you might get what you want. The normal reasons for allowing hearing near Defendant do not apply in this case, etc.

 

I wish you all the best with that. Maybe you could show financial hardship, too? Normal assumption is LL is well off and tenant isn't, though not always true,

[willie nelson]

hi,

how's things?

just an update for your interest and amusement. my ex-landlady is truly nuts!

no luck in getting hearing moved back to london. but with that news came a letter from my landlady to the court. she cannot make it to the hearing but sent a summary of her defence.

 

Up til now she claims she's witheld £380 for a mattress i left in a filthy and unusable state- NOW she's saying that the mattress was "sodden with what looked like urine and faeces" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

continuing to say that "if it was like this when i moved in, surely he would have pointed this out to me"!!! .

 

then stuff about offering me £400 of the deposit that i refused...

that i threatened her with three times the deposit because she had not lodged it with a scheme(!!)

again some nonsense about us lying about my girlfriend being pregnant.

but it's the last line that i like the most:

 

"In view of the above and the fact that that (sic) this case and his behaviour have caused me untold stress and worry, I would like to withdraw my offer of the £400 refund of deposit"

 

weird, huh? she doesn't seem to understand what's going on...... or is it me?

 

presumably this will make her look inconsistent and not credible to the judge. and she won't be there which is a bonus. anyway i take this to be good for me in the end when it comes to the hearing next month.

thanks again to everyone who's helped, especially webranger.

[willie nelson]

So...... I had my hearing last Friday the 18th March in York County Court... and I won!!! return of my deposit and 3 x deposit and costs. What a relief.

A big thank you to everyone at CAG, and everyone who replied to my posts, but especially Webranger who always responded so quickly to my questions and occasional incoherent panic.

Two days before the hearing I got a letter changing the time of the hearing from 2pm to 11am which felt like a last minute act of sabotage by the court, but we bought new train tickets from London which brought our travel expenses up to £221 and even more money invested.

We arrived at the court in the morning at exactly the same time as the defendant, who in her last communication with the court said she wasn't able to attend the hearing because she was out of the country on a business trip! An unpleasant surprise, but thought at least it might annoy the judge.

Straight away it was obvious that this Judge was a bit more laid back than the judge at the preliminary hearing in London. The judge said that there were three parts of the claim that needed to be decided: whether there was damage caused to the landlord's property (a mattress and kettle) and the return of the deposit, whether an agreement was made not to protect the deposit and whether the penalty of 3x the deposit would apply. In my opinion it should be solely the non-protection of the deposit and the statutory penalty for that, but anyway....

The Judge started going over the facts of the case. He said he believed the deposit was £780 and my landlady immediately contradicted him to say it was £750 (wrongly, the deposit was £780! bizarre, why was she trying to look like an idiot so soon?).

A bit more of the judge establishing the procedure of the hearing and then I had the chance to speak. I started explaining that there was no damage to anything and the LL immediately started to interrupt me... this went on for a while.

The judge then asked defendant about the mattress and kettle. She claimed we broke the kettle and the mattress was filthy (soaked in urine and faeces!!). no receipts, no photographs, no nothing to back this up. The judge explained that she needed to have some evidence before she could take someone else's money, pointing out that the deposit always remains the tenant's money. She said the mattress was 5yrs old and cost £800 and the kettle cost £60 (wow! I didn't know they made £800 mattresses and £60 kettles.) Her evidence that they were damaged: that a friend stayed at her flat before we moved in and wrote a letter to say that both the mattress and kettle were fine so therefore it must have been us that ruined them.

Judge: It's the condition of the mattress now that we are interested in.

Landlady: I had to get rid of them.

Judge: If it was covered in faeces I would expect at least to see a photo. Isn't there anyone who can verify this?

LL: My mum came to stay after they moved out. She was disgusted!

Judge: Do you have a statement from your mother?

LL: I didn't want to upset her by asking her to write a statement... but I can phone her if you like.

Judge: Where is you mother now?

LL: At home. I can call her.

a moment's silence.......... this was just weird.

After that the judge asked me about the agreement that the landlady claimed we had made not to protect the deposit. This claim rested on a series of emails about various different subjects that ended in me writing "Ok. thanks, T. sorry to hassle you". I pointed out that this hardly constituted an agreement, pointed out that we'd both signed a AST agreement that stated the deposit would be protected and read the sections of the act that say no such agreement is possible, which it turns out the judge didn't know, and he accepted that.

Next was the LL's argument that I was no longer "the tenant" when I made the claim. I mentioned references to the "relevant person" having no implied restrictions on when he can make a claim so it would be illogical that "the tenant" couldn't make a claim as an "ex-tenant". That it is after a tenancy that the act is most needed as protection and therefore inconceivable that the rights of the tenant would end with the tenancy, but the best argument was from HHJ Cryan's report (or whatever it's called) on the application to appeal in the Hashemi v Gladehurst Properties Ltd, where he refers to sections of Schedule 10 of the Act that clearly refers to "the tenant" in contexts that can only mean "the tenant after the tenancy has ended", and obviously "the tenant" must mean the same thing throughout the Act. The judge read through a couple of these examples and agreed with me.

All through this the landlady was interrupting me. She then went on to accuse me of lying and various other crimes against humanity, such relevant things as telling her my partner was 2 months pregnant instead of 7 1/2 months, that once I told her to shut-up on the phone, that I told the estate agents I would call the police if they entered the flat without permission, that the estate agents said I was rude, and so on and so on. She also kept going on about me saying that she'd got the case moved to York, when in fact it was the DJ in London who moved the case to York without being requested to relocate the hearing.

The judge eventually got bored of this, told me it was unnecessary for me to respond. He brought up the case of Tiensia v vision enterprises as relevant case law (which I couldn't remember at the time and worried me a little) and he wanted to study that quickly before making a decision. We waited outside for 15 mins, I felt things had gone about as well as they could but was still very nervous.

Anyway, when we went back into the judge's chambers he went through all the details. As far as damages there was not a shred of evidence so deposit returned. There was NO agreement whatsoever and anyway, even if there was, that wouldn't matter. Tiensia v Vision Enterprises meant that even if the LL had returned the deposit that day (of the hearing) or at any time before judgement, he would not be able to award the penalty (I strongly disagree with this, in fact I agree with the dissenting judge Sedley, but I also accept the penalty is too harsh for a genuine oversight or late protection), and he pointed out that the LL had not taken this opportunity, and therefore he HAD NO CHOICE but to impose the 3x penalty.... yippee, and costs which came to about £750 on top...

LL immediately started spewing: "liar!...perjury!.... libel!.... no evidence!... He told me to shut-up!"

I could see the judge holding his breath at this!

".... why should I have to pay for train tickets when the court changes the time of the hearing?!!? I wasn't told that the time of the hearing had changed!"

Judge: But you got this letter.

LL: No, I didn't!

Judge (holding letter): Well, you replied to it here so you must have received it. And I would be careful when you accuse people of lying, because you said in this letter that you were out of the country on business today.

She was refused permission to appeal. I know she won't pay, the judge gave her 21 days.

Anyway, if you made it this far through my rambling and badly narrated version of events, well done! It was very funny in retrospect but extremely stressful leading up to it. Huge thank you to C.A.G. and again especially Webranger for all your help.

If and when I get paid I will make a donation to support the site, how do I do this?

[bedlington83]

Thanks for the best laugh since I was in court with my lunatic ex-landlady. She committed legal suicide in much the same way as yours and was just as crazy. It's like they totally misunderstand the whole thing and think that all they need to do is turn up and convince the judge that, "actually, I'm a jolly decent person whereas that ex-tenant, well, words fail me; quite disgusting, it's clear I should win" and that's it.

 

I know it was very stressful for you at the time but well done. And doesn't it feel empowering? I wouldn't want to be the next person that crosses you

[mariner51]

#48 verbatim? report of hearing should be required reading for all LLs on how not to conduct yourself in Court.

 

IMO Tiensa set a fair precedent, with 2 judges assenting. As in this case it does not prevent arrogant LLs being penalised, but neither should the dep + 3x dep be an easy option to provide a large wad of easy cash for disreputable Ts.

 

Willie's judge tried the case and reveiwed evidence supplied by both sides - as it should be.

 

Hope Willie will post Judge's written decision if one is forthcoming as it confirms if LL had returned the deposit before entering Court the 3X penalty could not be enforced.