not returning deposit, deposit not protected

[willie nelson]

i just copied pasted this from the site. very good and quick to get an appointment. i just wish i'd found them sooner. this is specifice help for litigants in person.

The RCJ Advice Bureau off the Main Hall at the Royal Courts of Justice is open from:

MONDAY to FRIDAY from 10 am to 1 pm and from 2 pm to 4:30 pm.

The bureau is run by lawyers in conjunction with the Citizens' Advice Bureau and is independent of the court. The Bureau operates on a "first come first served" basis, or telephone advice is available on 0845 120 3715 (or 020 7947 6880) from:

MONDAY to FRIDAY between 11 am and 12 noon and between 3 and 4 pm.

 

also the bar pro bono unit can be found:

barprobono.org.uk or 02070923960, enquiries@barprobono.org.uk

i haven't tried with them yet, but i know it takes time.

hope this helps.

Edited August 25, 2011 by willie nelson

[willie nelson]

so... application for adjournment refused. fine. it'll be good to get this over and done with... pity i wasted £45 on the application... so it all depends on the judge really...my limited experience is that either they let you talk and make a case or that they shut you up and don't even let you speak... this whole thing has been a bit sh*t really... how much can i point out that the hashemi gladehurst decision is a crap one that screws the entire intention of the statute law, deliberately by the judges? or do i just have to speak like the judges know everything and are always right but that their decision doesn't apply to my case...

the hearing is on wednesday, when we have to drag ourselves up to leeds at great expense.

 

any last minute ideas or advice? i feel like i'm walking to the guillotine!!

 

thanks everyone.

[willie nelson]

Hi can anyone tell me a little what to expect at this appeal? is it pretty much the same as small claims hearing?

I address the Judge "your Honour"? I presume the Appellant gets to speak first....

she has submitted no argument so i don't know what she'll say other than I wasn't a tenant, which obviously might be enough... but can i object to any new argument that she raises?

presumably I can't dispute anything the judge says.

thanks:|

[willie nelson]

so it's been a week since the appeal hearing. as expected i lost the appeal. i have not seen the written judgement yet but i understand i keep the return of deposit and the costs of the first hearing, but no order on costs of the appeal.

the judge had no sympathy. gave the impression that he thought i was as bad as the landlady. told her to be quiet to begin with but she still spouted her lies and the judge made no indication that he believed me any more than her.

In terms of harassment, after looking at correspondence he said that it was obviously bad tempered but suggested i "had given as good as i got", though he commented that i was "legally in the right" (wtf?). why i should be in a position to "give" or "get" anything when i'm a tenant wasn't addressed. surely i should just be left in peace.

the judge conspicuously avoided reprimanding the landlord in any way whatsoever for lying and stealing £780 of my money or suggesting that she had been extremely lucky in her timing.

he rejected my argument that the tenancy may not have been legally ended due to harrassment, with the implication that i was changing my story and tantamount to lying.

Overall really disappointing, even though i didn't expect to win.

so it's prison for a teenager taking a bottle of water in a riot but nothing for landlord fraud to obtain £780. disgusted.

now i wait to see if she pays up even now.

what are the chances of bringing a seperate claim for harrassment/ breach of covenant of quiet enjoyment? she has still broken the law even if the penalty doesn't apply. i am still out of pocket plus time and stress because of that.

by the way, money box on radio 4 are doing a program about landlord/ tenants this week (wednesday i think). I emailed them. it seems they want to do a follow up about the TDS. i'm going in for an interview on friday!

 

thanks to you all for your help and comments, you are great.

[willie nelson]

the judge said i'd made an "impressive legal argument" and then said i'd obviously had some assistance, which, given Id applied for and adjournment to get legal assistance, seemed to me like he was suggesting that i was lying again. am i oversensitive or paranoid?

[willie nelson]

hi everyone,

well... i have had the court order from the circuit court, so i have lost the penalty but the order says the LL still has to return my deposit of £780, and the rest of the original order remains, which means as i understand means the costs of more or less £800 on top of that.

i have have requested this money from the LL and now she says she is appealing this, and details are to follow...

how can she appeal? she says it's because i lied in my statement of truth (i didn't). surely this is over!

i've had enough of this now. what could be going on?

thank you.

[Webranger]

Willie,

 

Once again I've had no emails about your posts here until just now I received one about this and another about your private message within two minutes of one another. I wonder why CAG does that?

 

Well, at least you've been awarded your deposit back plus the costs, but it's been an awful lot of hassle just to get your money back with no gain or extra recompense at all.

 

Your old LL is certainly a stubborn and stupid woman. It's already cost her your costs and now she wants to appeal? Did she ask the judge for permission to appeal further? If not, or if she did and he refused, then she would have to get permission from the Court of Appeal. She has to do it in 21 days and pay a fee and provide a Bundle of documents and a transcript of the judgment which will cost a bit - depending on how long he took but at least £5 a minute. I doubt she has the ability or the money. I suggest that you inform her that unless she pays immediately, you will apply for a bailiff's warrant to have the money or goods and chattels to the value of the judgment seized.

 

That will rattle her cage! If she takes no notice, then do it. There's a charge but she will have to repay that, too.

 

Good luck, keep us informed. (I hope CAG will keep me informed).

[willie nelson]

thanks webranger,

this is really doing my head in. yes, she's stubborn and stupid but it seems she gets away with it and i continue you pay!

she didn't request permission to appeal at the hearing.

yesterday i got this email:"please be advised that I am lodging another appeal, as is my legal right. You will receive notification shortly."

it's almost two weeks since the order was received. should i wait?

she was refused right to appeal at circuit level on any grounds other than the penalty of 3xdeposit already. what can she appeal now?

Not surprisingly, my faith in the judiciary is pretty low and everything i read about bailliffs sounds like they can't do much if the LL doesn't let them in the house!

on the upside i had a little baby daughter day before yesterday!

thanks again

[Webranger]

First things first: Congratulations on the birth of your little girl (name?) She'll keep you busy and your emotions on a roller coaster long after this spat with the LL is forgotten.

 

LL won on the only thing she could appeal over, so what does the loon think she is going to appeal about now?

 

Just write and tell her that she has nothing to appeal about and you take this claim as just time-wasting to delay inevitable payment. Tell her that you will take immediate action if she doesn't pay within seven days. Point out the options you now have open to you: Bailiffs; Land Registry Charges on all her properties; Court Investigation hearing to force her to reveal all her assets and income (she has to attend court on threat of imprisonment); application for bankruptcy; and all of these will add to her costs. As she has property she is far more vulnerable than your ordinary consumer. Actually, starting with the Hearing for Questioning would be good. She would have to pay your travelling costs again!!!! and you would be there to rub her nose in it. Ask for details at your local court.

 

Of course, you're likely to be a bit short of sleep for the next few weeks. All the best with that.

[willie nelson]

i emailed her pointing out what you said webranger. thank you. and just now i got her reply.

 

i'll just print it out here in full:

 

"I am appealing against costs. If you care to investigate you will learn that I could have done this at the appeal hearing. I have taken further legal advice and am in the process of filling out the necessary forms, which I will be sending to you and the court in due course.

 

In my appeal I will also be reiterating the fact that you lied - repeatedly - on your Statement of Truth. In case you think this is a trivial matter you might like to consider the following statement from HMCS:

 

 

“Claimants in private civil proceedings are required to sign a statment of truth before the court will issue a claim against a defendant. Anyone who deliberately provides false information is liable to be found in contempt of court and may be subject to a criminal prosecution, both of which can result in a custodial sentence.”

 

 

And just in case you think you can continue to deny the fact that you lied I am in possession (as are the court and the judges) of the email you sent to the court on 7 October 2010 asking for the hearing set set for 16 November in London to be adjourned. In your written statement to the court on 14 February you, quite unbelievably, try to pin this on me. I also have a letter from Hackney Council to say you did not pay council tax - ditto a letter from Thames Water regarding water rates - until I informed them you were living in my property. Again, you claim this is untrue in your SoT. Then there is the letter from my mother to prove that you did indeed damage my property.

 

 

As for your laughable assertion that I stole your deposit, the fact is we both know what happened. If you had accepted my offer of £400, or even tried to come to some agreement instead of hysterically threatening me with legal action YOU would not be in this position now. Unfortunately for you I stand up to bullies."

 

do i just have to wait? this is all horsesh*te, but presumably any pending appeal will hold up enforcement and be a waste of more time and money.

 

no name for the new arrival yet, anyone have any favourite girls names?

[Ed999]

Got A Judgment? How To Get Paid

 

Read the FAQ: Got A Judgment? How To Get Paid

 

The fees mentioned in that FAQ may now be out of date. The current Court fees are set out at:

 

• Court Fees

 

 

 

Charging Orders

 

Read this 'sticky' thread: A guide to Charging Orders & Orders for Sale

 

 

Charging Orders Act 1979:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/content.php?443-Charging-Orders-Act(1979)

 

 

 

Further Appeal

 

It would be prudent to believe at face value only any communications you receive from the court, or from a solicitor acting for your opponent.

 

In the circumstances, you might need to disregard statements made by the landlord personally, since these may be inaccurate - either intentionally or unintentionally.

 

Certainly, it would be rash to base your enforcement decisions on unsupported statements uttered by the landlord. If the court accepts her application for a further appeal - assuming she actually makes such an application - then the court will notify you of that. But it is entirely possible that she will not make a valid application to the court within the time limits.

 

Your best course might be to proceed as set out in the FAQ:

 

Got A Judgment? How To Get Paid

[Ed999]

Ed999 - it is not Bailli, but this ill gve you a rundown of those cases http://nearlylegal.co.uk/blog/2011/08/tenancy-deposit-penalties-awarded/

 

 

I omitted to comment on the two High Court cases referred to in the link, probably because they were mere High Court authorities. As I previously mentioned, a High Court decision cannot overturn the Court of Appeal decisions which have brought to an end the tenant's right to claim three times the amount of the deposit if the tenancy has ended.

 

But Suurpere v Nice [2011] EWHC 2003 (QB) was interesting, in that it concerned a case where - although the tenant had moved out - the landlord had not validly ended the tenancy; so the tenant won, on the simple basis that a claim for three times the deposit can succeed if the tenancy is still in existence at the time of the court hearing, something we already knew from the Court of Appeal cases but which it was surprising to come across in a situation where the tenant has actually moved out.

 

I've been nattering on for months in other threads about the need for a tenant to validly end a tenancy, by giving proper notice, not simply move out and hope the landlord will end it by reletting the premises; and here we now have a case demonstrating that it can actually be to the tenant's advantage to fail to end the tenancy!

[willie nelson]

the whole thing is ridiculous!

 

anyway, just to clarify... what is the time limit? 21 days? is that from the hearing or the court order a couple of weeks later?

when she was applying to appeal the first decision she had more time because of the court backlog...

if i initiate recovery proceedings what happens if an appeal comes through after i started?

[Webranger]

Again, first things first, we gave my youngest daughter a very rare name if that's what you are looking for: Eleeth. She's been my pride and joy for 21 years. Her middle name is Chileshe after her maternal uncle for African names are non gender specific. There's a river in Poland named the Dvina which I always thought would make a lovely girls name; in fact I think I have come across it occasionally over the years.

 

I trust your lady and yet-to-be-named baby are doing well?

 

As for your LL, she's a case. To apply for permission will cost her £235, plus more for a transcript of the judgment - and the permission would be refused on the basis of what she has written to you. There is just no basis there. She has to show that the lower court judge was mistaken at some point . As I said, I doubt if she has the ability to properly create the Bundle she would need. Make sure you keep that text and use it at any court hearing - it won't make her any admirers.

 

So Ed999 is right, don't take any notice, just plough on.

 

Now, I can tell you without telling you how i know, that the District Judges are very reluctant to adjourn execution of judgment just because permission to appeal has been requested so if, for example, you ask for a charge on all her properties, you will get it and fixed costs of £260 on each one (well, a solicitor gets that). You will need to write to her and ask for the list. She won't give it to you, so you get the court to arrange to call her in (on threat of prison) for questioning on all her assets. That will get you the list and then you can apply for the charges. You could engage a solicitor to do all this, but he/she will want money up front.

 

Frankly, I think that once she gets the demand to go to court to be subjected to questioning, she will pay up to avoid it. By then it will be well outside the 21 days she has for appeal. As an alternative, or even alongside, you could use the Statutory Demand - see the link in Ed999's last post. That amounts to a legal threat of bankruptcy.

Edited October 11, 2011 by Webranger
missed a point

[Webranger]

"what happens if an appeal comes through after i started?"

 

It won't, just get on with it. It takes months even to get permission to appeal - and she won't get it. She was semi-rescued last time because one court decision changed the effective law; that isn't going to happen again.

[Webranger]

Willie,

 

This is from Ed999's other link and this bit is very similar - with the result that I have already predicted:

 

"The Court of Appeal dismissed the landlady’s renewed application for permission to appeal because it simply amounted to an attack on the judge’s findings of fact based on his having taken a dim view of the landlady’s credibility."

[willie nelson]

So where were we?

I've been occupied with other things for a while. Anyway I thought that at least there was a month or so for this business of a further appeal to come out in the wash... Yesterday I phoned the court but they knew nothing about an appeal. Nothing had been lodged with them.

 

So I wrote my charming and cooperative ex-landlady an email seeing if she was going to give up and just pay me....

 

I wrote:

"Dear T...,

Obviously you are not appealing the hearing, so how about just paying me my money, and saving yourself extra expense?

C........"

She replied, cryptically:

"If you really want to land yourself in a whole heap of **** (unless you think you're above the law, which really doesn't surprise me) just let me know."

So, I replied:

"I'm sorry, I don't understand but will take it to mean I will start recovery proceedings tomorrow."

 

And she clarified things like this:

"You don't understand? Well understand this: not only will I make sure the judge reads your false statements this time but I will also be going to the papers (I don't know if you know and I'm sure you don't care but I'm a journalist) as they will love this. Have a nice day."

It says a lot about the standard of journalism, she accused me of "bear-faced lies" (sic) in one of her court statements!

 

Unfortunately this stopped being amusing sometime ago. I am not at all confident I will ever see my money.

[willie nelson]

so i have been looking at the options... one thing is for sure: she won't pay up until someone is pulling her fingernails out with rusty pliers, but that is not an option.

 

So, the list on the "how to get paid" link ed999 kindly posted...

 

1) order to attend. Is this worth doing? I know her home address. she has sold the flat we rented from her. i would be confident she owns her home, but do i need to know any mortgage providers before a making a charging order? also I know the bank account I paid rent into, is this already enough to issue a third party debt order?

therefore the question is: is it worth the order to attend, (given there are few things i would rather not do than go to yorkshire for another court hearing)?....

 

2) Charging order. If i apply for charging order I might have to wait 20 years til she sells her house, and get no interest, before i see any money. and then still ahve to remain contactable...

 

3) 3rd party debt order. This means i can freeze her bank account til she pays me but if there isn't enough in her bank acct it doesn't get me very far. But I do know her bank acct number.

 

4) Warrant of execution. Not very effective as bailliffs can be refused entry and not often £1600 worth of assets are siezable on the days if they gain entry. Getting a high court sherriff's order has more power, but still if she doesn't have £1600's worth of second hand furniture it's not very effective.

 

5) Statutory Demand. I suspect she'd rather go bankrupt than pay me a penny.

 

6) Attachment of earnings order. I'm pretty sure she's self-employed. So that's no good.

 

what do you reckon? perhaps a 3rd party debt order on her bank account that i know already? then perhaps a charging order? or is it better to get the order to attend first? can i get order to attend in my absence?

 

I wish i'd remembered to ask for an order of interest on the day of the hearing!!!!!

[SilverLinings]

Willie - thanks for outlining your nightmare so diligently and fully for people like me to read....I am horrified by what has gone on for you.......I also have been taken for a ride by a LL it seems and if anyone can help me I would really appreciate it as I am a bit confused reading all of this over the timeframe it has taken you to understand what I/you should/shouldn't be claiming or writing on the Claim form and even which claim form to use....thnx and no intent to disrupt your thread, I will follow the rest of your case with sympathy...from what I can make out it does look like she is never going to pay you and will get away with it.... it looks like employing a Solicitor would have probably shortened this whole process and sorted it fully by now surely? So much stress.....unbelievable....

Edited November 13, 2011 by SilverLinings

[Webranger]

Hi Willie,

 

"5) Statutory Demand. I suspect she'd rather go bankrupt than pay me a penny." No she wouldn't. You apply for that and then place a paid ad. in the local paper telling others that you were seeking her bankruptcy. That will wipe the sneer off her face.

"3) 3rd party debt order. This means i can freeze her bank account til she pays me but if there isn't enough in her bank acct it doesn't get me very far. But I do know her bank acct number." Yes, definitely go for that. She could get money out of the account before you got the order, but the embarrassment with the bank and having to change all her inward and outward payment arrangements would be too much for her.

 

Go for them both at the same time, Willie. She will have to pay the costs. It's time this vicious lying aggressor paid up. Journalist? Just more lies.

[Webranger]

Willie,

 

I was talking to a court bailiff the other day and he agreed that it was difficult to seize goods against a debt when they are refused entry, but he pointed out that if the debtor's car is outside they can seize that. They have to check that it is registered to that person and not on HP, but that takes a few moments. Probably worth going for.

[Webranger]

Hi Willie,

 

Your silence is deafening. Did you make the application in court for the third party order to freeze LL's bank account? I thought previously that she would have warning, but that's not the case, so she'll get a shock. If she is in overdraft, you won't get the money, but the account will still be frozen. It will allow money in but not out.

[willie nelson]

ok, i got it! sorry i delayed posting here, i'm sometimes aware that with a quick google my ex landlady might be reading.

my application for third party debt order has gone through. another hundred pound added to the bill. and surprise surprise she actually has the money in her account so it is there being held by the bank until a hearing on 24th January.

That evening i recieved an email from her, charming as ever:

 

"please be advised that I am contesting the court order on the grounds that you lied. I will be sending all the documentary evidence to the court. I have also contacted my MP. Regarding the national newspaper article, if you care to comment on why you lied and how you thought you could get away with it, please go ahead. If you don't want to comment it will be running anyway.

 

Best wishes...."

 

well what can i say, she's a bit mad.

 

SO: is it possible that this won't go through at the hearing? can i be confident enough not to attend the hearing? i really don't want to waste time and money going to yorkshire again.

is there anyway to address the circuit judges error in reducing my interest payment?

 

not sure if i explained already: although the appeal stated that costs etc would not be affected the judge later (because his first order was unclear) made a new order in which he reduced the interest from £41.16 to 10.29, i.e a quarter. it seems that he assumed that the interest awarded was on the £3120 (deposit plus three times amount) rather than £780 (the deposit). a minute with a calculator would have shown this not to be true. but obviously i'm not stupid enough to spend £45 on and order to annoy a judge on the off chance that he gives me back £30! and he ignored the fact that i have a right for the interest to continue until payment according to HMCS guidance forms.

it really annoys me that they don't even deign to explain their actions!

anyway hopefully this'll soon be over.

thanks all, and again webranger. any answers or comments always appreciated.

[Webranger]

Glad to hear from you again, Willie, I was wondering what had happened to you.

 

Yes, your old LL is a bi9t of a nut-case, as I've said before. The judgement has been made and she has not appealed, so if she tries to challenge the judgement in this execution hearing the judge is likely to get very annoyed with her. But the same goes for you if you try to get more added - with the exception of interest until payment. The judge should add that to the sum to be paid from LL's account.

 

In the meantime she is unable to use that account which is probably causing considerable inconvenience.

 

I don't know quite what to advise on going to the hearing. You'll get your travelling costs and loss of earnings up to £50 (plus hotel costs if you have to travel up the night before) but can you afford the time and inconvenience? You should be able to do this by a statement to the court as it is merely a matter of collecting on a judgement debt, but have a word on the 'phone with the court staff first.

 

How's the baby?