ok, i got it! sorry i delayed posting here, i'm sometimes aware that with a quick google my ex landlady might be reading. my application for third party debt order has gone through. another hundred pound added to the bill. and surprise surprise she actually has the money in her account so it is there being held by the bank until a hearing on 24th January. That evening i recieved an email from her, charming as ever: "please be advised that I am contesting the court order on the grounds that you lied. I will be sending all the documentary evidence to the court. I have also contacted my MP. Regarding the national newspaper article, if you care to comment on why you lied and how you thought you could get away with it, please go ahead. If you don't want to comment it will be running anyway. Best wishes...." well what can i say, she's a bit mad. SO: is it possible that this won't go through at the hearing? can i be confident enough not to attend the hearing? i really don't want to waste time and money going to yorkshire again. is there anyway to address the circuit judges error in reducing my interest payment? not sure if i explained already: although the appeal stated that costs etc would not be affected the judge later (because his first order was unclear) made a new order in which he reduced the interest from £41.16 to 10.29, i.e a quarter. it seems that he assumed that the interest awarded was on the £3120 (deposit plus three times amount) rather than £780 (the deposit). a minute with a calculator would have shown this not to be true. but obviously i'm not stupid enough to spend £45 on and order to annoy a judge on the off chance that he gives me back £30! and he ignored the fact that i have a right for the interest to continue until payment according to HMCS guidance forms. it really annoys me that they don't even deign to explain their actions! anyway hopefully this'll soon be over. thanks all, and again webranger. any answers or comments always appreciated.

so i have been looking at the options... one thing is for sure: she won't pay up until someone is pulling her fingernails out with rusty pliers, but that is not an option. So, the list on the "how to get paid" link ed999 kindly posted... 1) order to attend. Is this worth doing? I know her home address. she has sold the flat we rented from her. i would be confident she owns her home, but do i need to know any mortgage providers before a making a charging order? also I know the bank account I paid rent into, is this already enough to issue a third party debt order? therefore the question is: is it worth the order to attend, (given there are few things i would rather not do than go to yorkshire for another court hearing)?.... 2) Charging order. If i apply for charging order I might have to wait 20 years til she sells her house, and get no interest, before i see any money. and then still ahve to remain contactable... 3) 3rd party debt order. This means i can freeze her bank account til she pays me but if there isn't enough in her bank acct it doesn't get me very far. But I do know her bank acct number. 4) Warrant of execution. Not very effective as bailliffs can be refused entry and not often £1600 worth of assets are siezable on the days if they gain entry. Getting a high court sherriff's order has more power, but still if she doesn't have £1600's worth of second hand furniture it's not very effective. 5) Statutory Demand. I suspect she'd rather go bankrupt than pay me a penny. 6) Attachment of earnings order. I'm pretty sure she's self-employed. So that's no good. what do you reckon? perhaps a 3rd party debt order on her bank account that i know already? then perhaps a charging order? or is it better to get the order to attend first? can i get order to attend in my absence? I wish i'd remembered to ask for an order of interest on the day of the hearing!!!!!

So where were we? I've been occupied with other things for a while. Anyway I thought that at least there was a month or so for this business of a further appeal to come out in the wash... Yesterday I phoned the court but they knew nothing about an appeal. Nothing had been lodged with them. So I wrote my charming and cooperative ex-landlady an email seeing if she was going to give up and just pay me.... I wrote: "Dear T..., Obviously you are not appealing the hearing, so how about just paying me my money, and saving yourself extra expense? C........" She replied, cryptically: "If you really want to land yourself in a whole heap of **** (unless you think you're above the law, which really doesn't surprise me) just let me know." So, I replied: "I'm sorry, I don't understand but will take it to mean I will start recovery proceedings tomorrow." And she clarified things like this: "You don't understand? Well understand this: not only will I make sure the judge reads your false statements this time but I will also be going to the papers (I don't know if you know and I'm sure you don't care but I'm a journalist) as they will love this. Have a nice day." It says a lot about the standard of journalism, she accused me of "bear-faced lies" (sic) in one of her court statements! Unfortunately this stopped being amusing sometime ago. I am not at all confident I will ever see my money.

the whole thing is ridiculous! anyway, just to clarify... what is the time limit? 21 days? is that from the hearing or the court order a couple of weeks later? when she was applying to appeal the first decision she had more time because of the court backlog... if i initiate recovery proceedings what happens if an appeal comes through after i started?

i emailed her pointing out what you said webranger. thank you. and just now i got her reply. i'll just print it out here in full: "I am appealing against costs. If you care to investigate you will learn that I could have done this at the appeal hearing. I have taken further legal advice and am in the process of filling out the necessary forms, which I will be sending to you and the court in due course. In my appeal I will also be reiterating the fact that you lied - repeatedly - on your Statement of Truth. In case you think this is a trivial matter you might like to consider the following statement from HMCS: “Claimants in private civil proceedings are required to sign a statment of truth before the court will issue a claim against a defendant. Anyone who deliberately provides false information is liable to be found in contempt of court and may be subject to a criminal prosecution, both of which can result in a custodial sentence.” And just in case you think you can continue to deny the fact that you lied I am in possession (as are the court and the judges) of the email you sent to the court on 7 October 2010 asking for the hearing set set for 16 November in London to be adjourned. In your written statement to the court on 14 February you, quite unbelievably, try to pin this on me. I also have a letter from Hackney Council to say you did not pay council tax - ditto a letter from Thames Water regarding water rates - until I informed them you were living in my property. Again, you claim this is untrue in your SoT. Then there is the letter from my mother to prove that you did indeed damage my property. As for your laughable assertion that I stole your deposit, the fact is we both know what happened. If you had accepted my offer of £400, or even tried to come to some agreement instead of hysterically threatening me with legal action YOU would not be in this position now. Unfortunately for you I stand up to bullies." do i just have to wait? this is all horsesh*te, but presumably any pending appeal will hold up enforcement and be a waste of more time and money. no name for the new arrival yet, anyone have any favourite girls names?

thanks webranger, this is really doing my head in. yes, she's stubborn and stupid but it seems she gets away with it and i continue you pay! she didn't request permission to appeal at the hearing. yesterday i got this email:"please be advised that I am lodging another appeal, as is my legal right. You will receive notification shortly." it's almost two weeks since the order was received. should i wait? she was refused right to appeal at circuit level on any grounds other than the penalty of 3xdeposit already. what can she appeal now? Not surprisingly, my faith in the judiciary is pretty low and everything i read about bailliffs sounds like they can't do much if the LL doesn't let them in the house! on the upside i had a little baby daughter day before yesterday! thanks again

hi everyone, well... i have had the court order from the circuit court, so i have lost the penalty but the order says the LL still has to return my deposit of £780, and the rest of the original order remains, which means as i understand means the costs of more or less £800 on top of that. i have have requested this money from the LL and now she says she is appealing this, and details are to follow... how can she appeal? she says it's because i lied in my statement of truth (i didn't). surely this is over! i've had enough of this now. what could be going on? thank you.

the judge said i'd made an "impressive legal argument" and then said i'd obviously had some assistance, which, given Id applied for and adjournment to get legal assistance, seemed to me like he was suggesting that i was lying again. am i oversensitive or paranoid?

so it's been a week since the appeal hearing. as expected i lost the appeal. i have not seen the written judgement yet but i understand i keep the return of deposit and the costs of the first hearing, but no order on costs of the appeal. the judge had no sympathy. gave the impression that he thought i was as bad as the landlady. told her to be quiet to begin with but she still spouted her lies and the judge made no indication that he believed me any more than her. In terms of harassment, after looking at correspondence he said that it was obviously bad tempered but suggested i "had given as good as i got", though he commented that i was "legally in the right" (wtf?). why i should be in a position to "give" or "get" anything when i'm a tenant wasn't addressed. surely i should just be left in peace. the judge conspicuously avoided reprimanding the landlord in any way whatsoever for lying and stealing £780 of my money or suggesting that she had been extremely lucky in her timing. he rejected my argument that the tenancy may not have been legally ended due to harrassment, with the implication that i was changing my story and tantamount to lying. Overall really disappointing, even though i didn't expect to win. so it's prison for a teenager taking a bottle of water in a riot but nothing for landlord fraud to obtain £780. disgusted. now i wait to see if she pays up even now. what are the chances of bringing a seperate claim for harrassment/ breach of covenant of quiet enjoyment? she has still broken the law even if the penalty doesn't apply. i am still out of pocket plus time and stress because of that. by the way, money box on radio 4 are doing a program about landlord/ tenants this week (wednesday i think). I emailed them. it seems they want to do a follow up about the TDS. i'm going in for an interview on friday! thanks to you all for your help and comments, you are great.

Hi can anyone tell me a little what to expect at this appeal? is it pretty much the same as small claims hearing? I address the Judge "your Honour"? I presume the Appellant gets to speak first.... she has submitted no argument so i don't know what she'll say other than I wasn't a tenant, which obviously might be enough... but can i object to any new argument that she raises? presumably I can't dispute anything the judge says. thanks:|

so... application for adjournment refused. fine. it'll be good to get this over and done with... pity i wasted £45 on the application... so it all depends on the judge really...my limited experience is that either they let you talk and make a case or that they shut you up and don't even let you speak... this whole thing has been a bit sh*t really... how much can i point out that the hashemi gladehurst decision is a crap one that screws the entire intention of the statute law, deliberately by the judges? or do i just have to speak like the judges know everything and are always right but that their decision doesn't apply to my case... the hearing is on wednesday, when we have to drag ourselves up to leeds at great expense. any last minute ideas or advice? i feel like i'm walking to the guillotine!! thanks everyone.

i just copied pasted this from the site. very good and quick to get an appointment. i just wish i'd found them sooner. this is specifice help for litigants in person. The RCJ Advice Bureau off the Main Hall at the Royal Courts of Justice is open from: MONDAY to FRIDAY from 10 am to 1 pm and from 2 pm to 4:30 pm. The bureau is run by lawyers in conjunction with the Citizens' Advice Bureau and is independent of the court. The Bureau operates on a "first come first served" basis, or telephone advice is available on 0845 120 3715 (or 020 7947 6880) from: MONDAY to FRIDAY between 11 am and 12 noon and between 3 and 4 pm. also the bar pro bono unit can be found: barprobono.org.uk or 02070923960, enquiries@barprobono.org.uk i haven't tried with them yet, but i know it takes time. hope this helps.

thanks again, yes! I made the claim within that extra 5 weeks, good point i think. no section 21, but in some ways that doesn't matter, or even potentially look better making an illegal section 21 application with deposit unprotected. anyway. it all hinges on whether the judge wants an excuse to uphold the judgement. hopefully my landlady is on her usual form! I applied for an adjournment on two grounds, apologising profusely for the late application. one that i wanted to make an application to the bar pro bono unit for representation, the application takes about 6 weeks, also that my partner, co-tenant and mackenzie friend during this claim will be eight months pregnant on the hearing date which involve a train journey halfway accross the country. I should have made the application a long time ago but fingers crossed. i'll put together all my papers and skeleton argument and send 'em today. thanks again.

and furthermore, ed999, i think i've improved my argument there. In paragraph 41 of suupere.. the judge makes a big point of the provision of information being of equal importance to protection of the deposit... in hashemi, it seems to me the entire basis of the absurd decision lies on the idea that the court must have the choice of both 214 (3) (a) or (b) for the act to make sense. the decision being that if the tenancy ended the court lacked the protection option (except they don't). but put simply, the penalty still applies even if only the information ain't been provided, and provision of information has no bearing whatsoever on those options available to the court. not by any contorted stretch of a judge's imagination. excuse me if i've been a bit thick... anyway if you haven't read the suupere judgement do so, it helps support that view in my opinion. i think i'm tired!

dear ed999, i've been struggling to understand your point about hashemi v gladehurst judgement in relation to compliance with initial requirements as opposed to provision of prescribed information. you know what? after about twenty readings of the judgement i think i've finally got it!