Red Light jumping 'Evidence'!!

[Steerpike100]

Hi,

 

Just been 'caught' jumping a red light - I dispute this as have no recollection and would not knowingly do this. I requested evidence and have been sent a picture which supposedly shows the offence.

 

What it actually shows is a junction with the lights on red and my car about a car length beyond the red light, back wheels just infringing on the second of the white lines.

 

The accompanying data says I am 1.2 secs into the red light. I called to say I would have at least expected a photo showing my car actually going through when on red. How can I be sure the light wasn't on amber when I went through and over the first white line? I was informed the Amber light would have been lit for 2.9 seconds and this is proof enough. We disagreed and it was left open for me to pay up and accept the 3 points or run it to court.

 

I don't believe the photo is evidence of me having jumped a red light. Ordinarily I would let this go but I have 2 current SP30's and so this will be 9 points! This is at odds with my own perception of me being a very safe driver and to lose my licence would be catastrophic. Any have any advice on what evidence they are obliged to provide? I simply don't beleive their 'proof' is good enough.

[crem]

You should not be driving through on an amber light anyway. Amber means stop! not; lets see if I can get through quick before the red comes on.

 

While you may believe you didn't intentionally drive through a red light, I am sure the timing details they have quoted to you will be presented as evidence at court and the facts will speak for themselves.

 

Some maths assuming it is a 30mph road and you didn't slow down:-

 

You travel 43ft per sec

In 1.2 sec you tavelled 51ft

Assuming you are 15ft over the line (to your back wheels) the red came on when you were still 36ft from the line.

You travelled 124ft whilst the amber was on for 2.9sec

Total distance you were from the line when the amber came on is 160ft

 

Safe stopping distance from 30mph is 75ft.

 

I think you will get stuffed at court and I believe the fines at court often exceed the fixed penalty you may be being offered now.

 

If it wasn't a 30mph road I can recalc the figures above for a new speed for you if you like.

[WelshMam2009]

I have some professional experience of this and, in my opinion, you would be ill advised to fight it in court, especially given the endorsements you already have.

 

The timings of the signals are very specific and as, Crem has kindly pointed out for you, the maths shows you had ample time to stop but chose not to do so.

[patdavies]

Also, the camera will be a Home Office approved device and is not 'armed' until after the lights show a red aspect (usually 0.2 seconds after).

 

There must either be a second photograph (which shows that the vehicle moved and was not simply stationary but straddling the line when the lights went red) or a speed reading on the photograph that you have.

[Steerpike100]

thanks.

 

It was 40mph limit. I don't consider Amber as "get through as quickly as youy can" but will go through on Amber if unsafe to stop.

 

Pat - there was no second phot showing me straddling the lines at red and no speed reading.

[Bookworm]

I have 2 current SP30's and so this will be 9 points! This is at odds with my own perception of me being a very safe driver .

Sorry to say, but 2 speeding offences + going through a red (or amber) light should force you to reconsider your own perception and I feel that a court will think the same and will be more likely to come down hard on you, IMO.

[the_freedom_trail]

I think that if you try and defend this with two existing SP30's you would end up kicking yourself for not taking the fixed penalty. You may well be a safe driver but you will certainly need to be more aware with the prospect of 9 points - 3 more and you are looking at a ban.

 

TFT

[patdavies]

Pat - there was no second phot showing me straddling the lines at red and no speed reading.

 

There will be, believe me. It's just that they haven't supplied it to you; nor are they obliged to so so until this is in front of a Court.

[Al27]

Out of interest, what would you do if a car was right up your backside and you were approaching a red traffic light camera?

 

I have to go past one every day. One time I'm going to brake and some berk will go in the back of me.

 

Which is why I detest red light cameras.

[postggj]

just a quick question on this one ref two photos a few secs apart,

if you dispute the evidence and ask for copies of the two photos,

how can they say they wil be produced in court, same thing with the calibration cirtificate for a speed gun

 

i thought the prosecution had to supply all evidence before court

 

 

the other thing to clarify on is the three points for jumping a red light,

how it stand if stationary, say you skidded over the line,

 

i believe the actual offence is a moving violation, so if stationary

[patdavies]

just a quick question on this one ref two photos a few secs apart,

if you dispute the evidence and ask for copies of the two photos,

how can they say they wil be produced in court, same thing with the calibration cirtificate for a speed gun

 

i thought the prosecution had to supply all evidence before court

 

The evidence has to be produced to the defendant before a Court can hear the case in the event of a not guilty plea (in practice, it is often sent automatically with the summons).

 

It is not normally produced and it certainly isn't required for an FPN.

 

 

the other thing to clarify on is the three points for jumping a red light,

how it stand if stationary, say you skidded over the line,

 

i believe the actual offence is a moving violation, so if stationary

3 penalty points is the standard for the offence

 

"Skidding across" is not stationary, the vehicle may not be driven, but it is still moving.

 

The offence is complete if any part of the vehicle crosses the stop line whilst the lights display a red aspect.

[postggj]

thanks for clearing that up pat

 

we live and learn

[patdavies]

Out of interest, what would you do if a car was right up your backside and you were approaching a red traffic light camera?

 

I have to go past one every day. One time I'm going to brake and some berk will go in the back of me.

 

Which is why I detest red light cameras.

 

You should slow well before the traffic lights and be prepared to stop.

 

Better that some berk runs into the back of you (his fault) than an HGV runs into the side of you because his lights were green and yours red.

 

Please let me know where this happens to you regularly - I've been looking for somebody to drive into the back of me ever since I broke the rear bumper on a concrete pillar.

 

There is never justification for a private individual to cross a red light. Even to make way for an emergency vehicle.

 

Speed cameras are dubious, red light cameras, I support. If only because their evidence is more reliable that the opinion of human witnesses.

[pin1onu]

just a quick question on this one ref two photos a few secs apart,

if you dispute the evidence and ask for copies of the two photos,

how can they say they wil be produced in court, same thing with the calibration cirtificate for a speed gun

 

i thought the prosecution had to supply all evidence before court

AIUI they don't have produce the items unless you indicate that you are going to go to court. In which case the offer is withdrawn.

 

With an FPN - it is an offer to pay and receive points rather than go through court. Typically the fine will increase and you will be stung with costs and victims support levy as well.

[Al27]

You should slow well before the traffic lights and be prepared to stop.

 

Better that some berk runs into the back of you (his fault) than an HGV runs into the side of you because his lights were green and yours red.

 

Please let me know where this happens to you regularly - I've been looking for somebody to drive into the back of me ever since I broke the rear bumper on a concrete pillar.

 

There is never justification for a private individual to cross a red light. Even to make way for an emergency vehicle.

 

Speed cameras are dubious, red light cameras, I support. If only because their evidence is more reliable that the opinion of human witnesses.

 

I'm the one slowing down and preparing to stop - it's the guy up my bumper who's the problem.

 

Obviously you've got no choice but to stop, but it's no consolation when you've got a trashed car.

 

There's always a few seconds leeway when the lights change, so an impact from sneaking through on red is always less likely than someone hitting you from behind from braking.

 

On paper it all makes sense - amber mean stop and you have plenty of time. But because there's a camera, as soon as you see amber you jump on the brakes because you daren't be a centimetre over the line.

 

I'm probably just being paranoid, but I'm on tenterhooks whenever I go past, with my foot resting on the brake pedal.

[Steerpike100]

I know I'm a safe and considerate driver and, whilst I appreciate all the advice, I can't help feeling bitter. I have x2 SP30's for doing 34 and 35 in a 30 zone and yes, I know I know, I only have myself to blame....but it's very easy to do, especially in Camera heavy Bristol. I'm sure I have not gone through a red light but now feel I have no option but to take the wrap - so 9 points it is and 6 months of driving on tenterhooks in case my licence (and with it Job and contact with daughter) is taken.

[WelshMam2009]

I know I'm a safe and considerate driver and, whilst I appreciate all the advice, I can't help feeling bitter. I have x2 SP30's for doing 34 and 35 in a 30 zone and yes, I know I know, I only have myself to blame....but it's very easy to do, especially in Camera heavy Bristol. I'm sure I have not gone through a red light but now feel I have no option but to take the wrap - so 9 points it is and 6 months of driving on tenterhooks in case my licence (and with it Job and contact with daughter) is taken.

 

It's not that I'm not sympathetic as all drivers are now under the same pressures. I know of an 86 year old who recently got his first 3 points for doing 33 in a 30mph.

 

The advice being given is that you would be ill advised to fight this further.

[the_freedom_trail]

When I had my car accident in 2007 - I was waiting at red traffic lights in Southampton and a Polish car behind drove so fast in to the back of me (estimates around 50mph to 60mph) that I went straight through the red light, across the junction and hit the bus stop on the other side. I got done by the traffic light camera but given the circumstances it was cancelled. I was taken to hospital and the Police recovered my trashed vehicle to a council car park where it was waiting for 7 days for the insurers to come and collect by which time I had collated no less than 7 penalty charge notices for not paying parking (the car could not be moved as the fuel tank had come off, the back suspension was shot, offside rear tyre punctured, etc). This was despite the fact the Police covered my car in Police aware notices and put the RTI number in the front windscreen for any enquirers to use as a point of reference. The council agreed to cancel the tickets after the Police had a word with them about it.

 

Just my account of how the camera's can turn on you when you are most in need

 

TFT

[patdavies]

I. I have x2 SP30's for doing 34 and 35 in a 30 zone and yes, I know I know, I only have myself to blame....but it's very easy to do, especially in Camera heavy Bristol.

 

Not judging, but are you actually aware of the difference that 5 mph makes?

 

Speed is not lost in linear fashion. On a dry road with normal grip if there was an obstruction such that you could just stop without hitting it at 30 mph, you would still be doing 11 mph from 35 mph when you hit it.

 

Also, just to put stopping distances into perspective, consider this. At a legal 30 mph at the point when you reach the back end of a stationary bus that you are overtaking, somebody steps out from in front of the bus. Where will you be stationary after a emergency stop. The answer is about 20 feet after you hit them.

 

 

so 9 points it is and 6 months of driving on tenterhooks in case my licence (and with it Job and contact with daughter) is taken.

 

Point count for topping up for SP30 for 3 years from the date of offence, not from date of conviction. It would be worth checking this when calculating your 6 months.

[crem]

thanks.

 

It was 40mph limit. I don't consider Amber as "get through as quickly as youy can" but will go through on Amber if unsafe to stop.

 

Pat - there was no second phot showing me straddling the lines at red and no speed reading.

 

Well I think you've picked up the jist here that most people think you would be on a hiding to nothing by trying to take this to court. Increasing the speed limit for that road only makes the maths regarding the distances you covered even worse.

 

Same maths assuming it is a 40mph road and you didn't slow down (and weren't speeding):-

 

You travel 58ft per sec

In 1.2 sec you tavelled 69ft

Assuming you are 15ft over the line (to your back wheels) the red came on when you were still 54ft from the line.

You travelled 168ft whilst the amber was on for 2.9sec

Total distance you were from the line when the amber came on is 222ft

 

Safe stopping distance from 40mph is 120ft.

[Al27]

Not judging, but are you actually aware of the difference that 5 mph makes?

 

Speed is not lost in linear fashion. On a dry road with normal grip if there was an obstruction such that you could just stop without hitting it at 30 mph, you would still be doing 11 mph from 35 mph when you hit it.

 

Also, just to put stopping distances into perspective, consider this. At a legal 30 mph at the point when you reach the back end of a stationary bus that you are overtaking, somebody steps out from in front of the bus. Where will you be stationary after a emergency stop. The answer is about 20 feet after you hit them.

 

Has anybody actually ever had to perform an emergency stop due to a person stepping out in front?

 

Not being facitious, just wondering since most speeding campaigns revolve around not killing someone you hit.

 

I find people, even children, are more sensible that that.

[Bookworm]

Yes, plenty of times.

 

From the drunken idiot who decides to launch himself in the centre of the road to the chav mother who thinks that if she propulses her pram in front of a car they will automatically stop, from kids running behind their footballs to moronic teenagers playing chicken (I kid you not) on a dual carriageway. And that's before you count those in cars who jump in front of you, go through a red light, suddenly change direction or simply brake themselves for no reason whatsoever.

 

Either I'm unlucky or it's that darn invisible car of mine again.

[harrystottle]

Hi All

 

Sorry to hijack this thread but it's kind of on topic...

 

My friend stopped at a junction having passed through a green traffic signal. He had passed over the line but could proceed no further because the traffic had stopped. When the traffic ahead moved on, he proceeded to move also although the traffic light he had passed through was now red. A policeman saw this and issued him with a ticket for "Failing to comply with traffic light signals".

 

I always thought that in situations such as these, where your vehicle has passed across the line, it is still legal to move on when your way is clear, even if the signal has turned from green to red; am I correct?

 

Thanks in advance

 

 

H

[harrystottle]

BTW he's up in court tomorrow for it as he said the copper had an attitude and has made some errors in his statement to the court which my friend is hoping to highlight and he thinks he shouldn't accept the fixed penalty they're offering him.

 

I think he's being a bit too stroppy for his own good personally but would be interested to hear about the legalities of this scenario :o)

 

Thanks again

 

H

[wheelergeezer]

A red signal means stop - before the stop line. It is perfectly legal to clear the junction provided it is safe.

 

However, this will depend on the exact circumstances. Some junctions are very big and whilst you may well have passed the stop line, it would not be safe or advisable to barge your way across the junction against the cross traffic or pedestrians.

 

Without seeing the exact circumstances of your firend I cannot give a more definiteve response. But if the policeman gave them a ticket they are bound to be right as police are all saints and never ever get anything wrong. Ever.8)