Crazyworld V Nationwide

[crazyworld]

Ok, thought it was probably about time I started a thread on my own fight.

 

5th April 2007 - Sent Data Protection Act request

21st May 2007 - Received statement of charges

22nd May 2007 - First letter sent off requesting charges

5th June 2007 - Received standard get lost letter

5th June 2007 - second letter already prepared sent off advising I intend to take to court if no satisfactory response to request for repayment within 14 days.

 

After considering my options, and the stalling tactics, and abuse of process used by Nationwide I decided to opt for the Financial Ombudsman route for claiming back my charges. There is also the satisfaction of knowing the FO will charge Nationwide a few hundred pounds on top of anything they agree to pay out.

 

I rang today to ask them to confirm what they could do, and when they said that as i'd already received a letter turning down my request I could file a complaint with them now.

 

So apprently, Nationwide will be receiving a letter shortly from the Financial Ombudsman which they'll have 8 weeks to respond to, and i'll be receiving a form in the next couple of days to fill in.

 

Looks like it's all systems go now, Best wishes all in your own fights.

[MilkTrayMan]

...I decided to opt for the Financial Ombudsman route for claiming back my charges. There is also the satisfaction of knowing the FO will charge Nationwide a few hundred pounds on top of anything they agree to pay out....Sorry, but U are WRONG!...only IF it goes to a FULL investigation!!!

 

I rang today to ask them to confirm what they could do, and when they said that as i'd already received a letter turning down my request I could file a complaint with them now.

 

So apprently, Nationwide will be receiving a letter shortly from the Financial Ombudsman which they'll have 8 weeks to respond to, and i'll be receiving a form in the next couple of days to fill in.

So, start to finish U reckon approx 3 month minimum time eh??!

...and What if The FSO get busy??

...or they Find against U??

...or Nationwide doesn't respond??

...or it has to go to a FULL investigation??

[crazyworld]

Hi MilkTrayMan, I don't reckon on any length of time at all from start to finish, I don't know how long it will take, I have read many threads on both this and other forums where going through the Finanical Ombudsman route has been quicker, but i'm prepared to stick it out for whatever length of time it takes.

 

I simply refuse to be the subject of Nationwide's stalling tactics, and abuse of process through the court route at the moment. As a consumer simply asserting my rights I am not going to be subjected to that at this stage.

 

If it does go to a full investigation, then that's also fine by me, if there was a full investigation, then that would highlight the excessive nature of these penalty charges.

 

If they find against me, I still have the court route open; as far as I know, so far they haven't found against any claimants, or am I mistaken?

[crazyworld]

I thought it fair to inform the Nationwide of my stance, considering up until now i've only spoken of court - here's the message i've sent off to them, i'll also be posting a copy, and attaching one for the Finanical Ombudsman, as well as a copy for myself of course:

 

13th June 2007

 

cc Financial Ombudsman

cc Mr Crazyworld

 

Re account number ***********

Sort Code *********

Account holder Mr Crazyworld, Address ****************

 

Dear sir or madam,

 

I wish to inform yourselves that today I have contacted the Financial Ombudsman in relation to unlawful penalty charges debited from the above account by the Nationwide Building Society, you should shortly be hearing from them in relation to my claim.

 

I have attempted to inform you of my own concerns regarding these charges being in breach of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations Act 1999 in a courteous manner. The Nationwide has not however taken my concerns seriously, and sent out template computer generated responses which do not relate to individual circumstances.

 

Since writing a letter before action to yourselves on the 5th June I have discovered that the Nationwide has on previous occasions acknowledged that its charges are excessive through both statements made by its chief executive, and via its own leaflets.

 

I have also discovered since that letter that the Nationwide, along with other financial institutions are conducting themselves in a scandalous manner by forcing claimants into the courts, entering a defence, and then settling claims before the judgement.

 

It is for the above reasons that I decided to pursue this matter through the financial ombudsman.

 

As this account is now in dispute I wish to advise you that you may not in any instance debit my account with any more charges. I would strongly advise you to adhere to this instruction.

 

Of course, this matter not only could have been, but also can still be concluded in a satisfactory and reasonable manner by repaying the outstanding arrears due to the account holder as soon as possible.

 

If the Nationwide are not willing to be reasonable and responsible in this matter on issues relating to the law, then I am willing to pursue this matter through to its conclusion, which could very possibly lead to the Nationwide having to disclose the true costs of processing returned cheques, direct debits, etc..

 

Yours Faithfully,

 

Mr Crazyworld

 

[crazyworld]

Right, i've drafted a response for the part of the Ombudsman's form which asks for any more details. Any thoughts on the wording?

 

This is the link where i've posted the draft:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/word-banks/97788-pre-determined-internal-limits-post917041.html#post917041

[kez74]

Hi crazyworld.

 

I myself have spoken to F.O.S and i was told that the bank has 8 weeks to responed once they have been contacted by themselves.

 

I was told that sometimes the banks settle within the week sometimes they use the full eight weeks and again some people will get offers of a full refund and some not. But at least you will have the opition to go to court should the F.O.S not get you an out come with which you are happy. A friend of mine has just got a refund from her bank she sent the print out she received from the bank of all her charges to the F.O.S and has just had an offer from them, slightly under the full amount but only by a couple of hundred.

She started her claim 2 months after me and has had her result already.

so there is nothing to lose.

 

The F.O.S will ask to see proof from the bank that the charges they have put onto your account are legal (which they cannot do as they are not!!). It does seem like a good idea to use F.O.S after all it is a free service and you might get a result quicker.

 

Keeping my fingers crossed for you. By the way love the letter you have sent to the NW dated 13TH JUNE. Might send one myself.

[crazyworld]

Hi Kez, thanks for the reply.

 

Yes, I certainly find the Ombudsman route is the most appropriate for myself at present, as you say if i'm not satisifed I can always proceed to the court route.

 

I'm also trying an additional tactic, which i've not read anyone has tried until now saying that as the Nationwide have effectively applied service charges to my account in the form of allowing my balance to exceed its overdraft limit on numerous occasions without my specific acceptance of such a service, then i'm going to reclaim those charges back as well.

 

If the Nationwide want to argue that I accepted their terms and conditions as they have up until now, i'm going to ask for them to specifically point to the individually negotiated terms which state that I have requested such a service. If they cannot point to such terms then I will say that they are attempting to apply yet another unfair term on my contract, and as such I do not accept liability for such terms.

 

On most of the instances when my account has been over its agreed overdraft limit it has been because of the Nationwide's actions. I refuse to be subject to having to both bring the balance to within the agreed limit because of the Nationwides unlawful actions and maladministration of my account, and having to pay the penalty charges on top of that plus their interest rates.

 

Thanks for your kind comment on the letter, yes, please feel free to use whatever you feel might be helpful from that.

 

Best of luck in your own claim also Kez.

[crazyworld]

Ok, finally got copies of all evidence and filled in the form I received yesterday from the Ombudsman last night, posted by recorded delivery this morning.

 

I've stated on the form that I believe its highly unfair that on the occasions the Nationwide's actions permitted my account to exceed its authorised limit without my agreement, not only did they take the unlawful penalty charges out of my account, but then required me to bring the balance back within the agreed limit, effectively applying a service charge for a service I did not request on top of an unlawful excessive penalty charge for a breach of contract.

 

I've also requested that they explain how the Nationwide allow my balance to exceed its overdraft limit on the occasions when they deem it fit to give me the "service" of an unauthorised overdraft to recover penalty charges, yet return direct debits and cheques unpaid when I am only on occasions a minimum of a few pence short of the amount due on the dates the direct debits/cheques are due. This seems to be a cynical exploitation of the charging and lending regime.

[kez74]

I too find this a real pain in the behind.

Once they bounced a direct debt because we were 17 pence short!!! but let us over draw 30 pound to pay the charge and then the following month charged us another 30 pound for going over drawn. But we only went over drawn to pay the bank charge in the first place.

 

it is just like a mad money making circle with us all stuck in the middle.

 

I still have had no reponse to my L.B.A so i am going to get the ball rolling on Monday with the F.O.S..

Let us know if they have anything to say about the letter you sent them about taking future charges from you.

 

Good luck and keep us posted.

[crazyworld]

It's scandalous really isn't it Kez.

 

Anyway, keep up the good fight, will keep updated.

 

Best wishes.

[crazyworld]

Just a quick update. The poor things, all this paperwork, and changing my mind, to go down the ombudsman route rather than court must be confusing them.

 

I got a letter off them this morning saying that they'd received a letter from the Ombudsman, and they had 8 weeks to respond. Only trouble is that they didn't count the 8 weeks from the date I first made the compliant, the lady I spoke to on the phone sounded rather flustered after checking paperwork to find that they only had less than a month now (Their 8 weeks runs out on the 17th July), instead of 2 months to refund my money before the Ombudsman pursued the matter further. So they're going to send me out another letter to reflect that.

 

In addition to that, they said that they didn't have the correct address for me and sent me a change of address form, I kindly informed them that I had an acknowledgement letter from when I originally sent my change of address form dated 24th May 2007, and that I had gone into the branch to show them a signature as requested. Apparently, i'll be receiving a letter to apologise for that, and if necessary due to their fault may have to fill in another form in.

 

I'm sure the ombudsman, and/or the court will be impressed by this maladministration.

 

Further updates as they happen.

 

Best wishes all.

[crazyworld]

Well, i've been going through all the statements available online to try and work out the actual loss caused by these unlawful penalty charges.

 

As i've mentioned on the letter to the Chief Exec, being an accountant he will know that there are hidden losses which don't show up on a statement to the customer.

 

I've given an example on there as follows:

 

I may have had an account balance of +£10 on day one, on day 2 a penalty charge of £30 is debited from my account (with no authorised overdraft) taking me £20 overdrawn. On day 3, I was unaware of the penalty charge, and deposited £50, instead of having a balance of +£60, I now have a balance of +£30. I would need to make a further deposit of £30 to bring my balance up to where it should have been, had the Nationwide not debited the £30 charge from my account.

 

So, considering this today, I went through all the statements available online, and deducted the amounts imposed through the charges to work out the additional amount I would need to deposit to bring the balance up to where it should be.

 

Obviously though the online statements only go back to April 2005. Although i'm not expecting the chief executive to agree to authorising a full breakdown of the amount I have actually lost I do feel that this seems to be a legitimate point that many people aren't picking up on.

 

So far, on top of a certain percentage of the deposits made being gobbled up by the penalty charges, i've worked out in my own case that i'd need to deposit at least another £724.86 to get my balance back to where it should be. (And that's only back to April 2005)

 

Shouldn't we all be trying to get back the actual amounts we've lost, rather than just the charges? It seems the banks are effectively charging us roughly double (it could be more i'm not an expert mathematician) the original amount of the charge!

 

It made me so angry, but yet so determined to get my money back as I was going through those statements. I tell you, I was shocked that on occasions when I was up to my maximum overdraft limit (even into unauthorised overdraft sometimes) that I should have had a positive balance in the hundreds!

[crazyworld]

Oh, just noticed after going through those statements from Nationwide online, despite the fact I received an acknowledgement letter on the 24th May about my change of address at my new address, Nationwide sent my 6th June statement to my old address.

 

 

Due to the move, everything was upside down for a bit, and I obviously didn't realise that I hadn't received a statement at my new address.

 

Isn't this in breach of the data protection act or something similar? After all, they should have processed the change of address by then, shouldn't they? (They sent the standard get lost reply to my first letter requesting charges to my new address on the 31st May - well that was the date on the letter anyway which I received on the 5th June) I don't really like the thought of the new tenants or even my ex landlord having a look through my statements.

[crazyworld]

Am going to send the following to Nationwide today:

 

Member Service,

Nationwide Building Society,

1st Floor, Old Building,

Kings Park Road,

Moulton Park

Northampton

NN3 6NW

Re Account Number ***********

Dear sir or madam,

 

Further to your letter, dated 18th June 2007, reference MSD/*******, which states :

 

“The Financial Services Authority (FSA) allows us 8 weeks to investigate before you have the right to ask the Financial Ombudsman to review your case. This ends on 10 August 2007, and we expect to be able to reply to you by then if not sooner.”

 

As I informed a member of your department on the telephone yesterday (19th June), I made my initial complaint on the 22nd May 2007, the 8 weeks to resolve the complaint to my satisfaction runs out on the 17th July 2007. The lady I spoke to said that a further letter would be sent to me to reflect this apparent maladministration by the Nationwide.

In addition to the above, the letter also states:

 

“We have noted that the address provided to the Financial Ombudsman Service differs to our records. In order for us to update our records please complete the enclosed change of address form and return it in the prepaid envelope provided. Please also provide us with proof of your identification in the form of a photocopy of your driving licence or passport.”

 

When speaking to the lady at member services yesterday, I informed them that I had already sent a completed change of address form to the Nationwide earlier this year, and, indeed, received an acknowledgement letter, dated 24th May 2007 asking me to contact the helpdesk at the Branch Service Centre. I contacted the Nationwide following receipt of this letter, the gentleman I spoke to said that all I had to do now was to take my cash card for the account into my local branch, as the Nationwide required an electronic copy of my signature. I followed this instruction, and thought no more about it.

 

I believe it is highly unsatisfactory, and negligent for your staff to attempt to say that they hadn’t updated their records with my new address, when in fact I had followed the procures necessary in order to change my address. It seems strange that I had previously changed my address on another occasion without such problems, yet following a complaint on an issue relating to the Nationwide’s unlawful penalty charging regime, the necessary procedures were not followed by yourselves.

 

In addition to the above, last night after I’d downloaded statements from your online service, I was shocked to discover that my statement dated 6th June 2007 was delivered to my previous address. As you can imagine, when you change address, you don’t necessarily notice if you don’t receive a statement on a certain date, as that is not a priority.

 

I am dismayed though that the Nationwide sent this statement to my previous address after I’d followed all the necessary procedures to change my address with yourselves.

 

This appears to be a breach of the Data Protection Act. I believe the Nationwide were forced to sign an agreement on the 20th February 2007 following the discovery of your customers personal details in a bin, that you would from then on abide by the principles of the Data Protection Act, quite obviously you have not abided by those principles, and the Information Commissioner should be made aware of this breach.

 

Not only have the Nationwide breached the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 with your unlawful penalty charging regime, you’ve also breached the Consumer Credit Act 2006 in respect of “Unfair Relationships Between Creditors and Debtors” by abusing your privileged position as administrators of my account to allow my balance to exceed its authorised overdraft limit on numerous occasions purely to claw back your unlawful penalty charges, and burdening me with debts I would not otherwise have had, additionally in my own case you’ve now breached the Data Protection Act, and negligently administered my personal details, as well as my account.

 

The above will be brought to the attention of the Financial Ombudsman as well as the Information Commissioner.

 

Yours Faithfully

 

 

 

 

[kez74]

Well crazyworld at least you seem to be getting contact from the nw, i am still being ignored.........so F.O.S contacted today and they said its not exceptable etc and they will send us out forms to fill in........lets see if they can get any joy from nw.

 

Oh and one other thing..............the nw have increased our overdraft by 350 pounds!!!!!!!!!!!!! go figure!!!!!

[crazyworld]

Hi Kez, sorry to hear that you've still had no responses at all. It's terrible service really isn't it.

 

Sounds bad having to increase your overdraft. Have you considered also saying to the ombudsman that you don't feel that they're acting as responsible lenders according to the banking code, or alternatively, depending on your own circumstances telling the ombudsman that you feel they're in breach of the Consumer Credit Act 2006 in regard to "Unfair Relationships between Creditors and Debtors", in that you've been forced into increasing your overdraft limit, purely, or in part because of their unlawful penalty charges?

 

Hope the Ombudsman manages to get you somewhere Kez.

Best wishes.

[crazyworld]

Just a quick update, received a letter from the Ombudsman this morning, they're passing the complaint to the casework administration area to await allocation to an investigation team.

[crazyworld]

Hi all.

 

It appears that my letter to the Chief Executive was a wise move, see:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/nationwide/99140-letter-chief-executive.html

 

I received a letter this morning from their Member Service department, saying that Mr Beale is sorry to learn of my disappointment, and after fully considering everything raised in the correspondence on "this occasion only" they're willing to refund all the charges requested, and reverse pending charges.

 

They've apologised for the poor customer service, and offered me the full amount as a full and final settlement of my complaint, i've signed the acceptance form, as it is the full amount, and they have not attached any further conditions.

 

It may be worth others writing to the chief executive if they have similar concerns as I have outlined in that letter to Mr Beale.

 

Best of luck everyone, and a donation is on its way to the CAG.

 

Thank you to this forum for all the very useful information, it's greatly appreciated.

[t2suggas]

I can just imagine his inbox now, or in the near future.

 

Will be following that advice myself.

 

Thanks.

[crazyworld]

Hi t2suggas, I was quite surprised it was settled so quickly to be honest with you, mind you, the money isn't in my account yet, they've said it should be within 2 weeks.

 

Best wishes with your own case.

[kez74]

Hi crazyworld.

 

Well ive had my bog standed letter from the nw....sorry you are not happy blah blah blah please see enclosed leaflet blah blah blah......... anyhow after reading that you are to get your money back by taking the bull by the horns so to speak, i think i will give it a go myself and write to the man at the top!!!!!

 

I have received all the forms from the fos and have filled them in but i will just wait and see if i get any reponse after sending a letter to the chairman..

 

Well done on getting back your money!!!!!! I will let you know if the same route works for me.

[crazyworld]

Hi Kez, it seems it may be worth your while to write your letter off to Mr Beale, AND to send your form in to the FOS. After all, that's double the pressure then isn't it, and hopefully that strategy will work for you.

 

Yes, please keep us updated, Best wishes again. Keep going, you will get your money back