Unregistered meter - free electricity

[free1]

"im talking about your deeds."

 

Yes, it is in my deeds  - With a sufficient description (for them) and also access rights (for them). I also know that it is reflected in their deeds 

 

Another thing, If for some reason their electricity developped a fault (!) , I can't stop them coming in look at the meters e.g. to reset a switch.

Also, they are not stupid, they have taken a picture of the meter/wiring, so if anything changed (i.e. a meter removed) , I would have to give a very convincing reason to the police why I wasn't involved in some way. After all it is in a locked room and I am the only one that has the key!

 

 

 

[dx100uk]

aw bummer.

 

 

[Ethel Street]

So, on the one hand a crime under the Theft Act is very likely being committed, but on the other hand you can't prove it directly and the organisations involved in the supply won't confirm anything to you.

 

The police don't want to get involved in what might be a time-consuming investigation which has low priority to them and use the excuse that you haven't provided evidence that a crime has been committed.

 

The only next step that occurs to me is to make an appointment to visit your MP at their constituency surgery and explain the whole thing and see if they can get some wheels turning - "concerned citizen trying to report a long running fraud but nobody can be bothered to follow this up", etc.  Talk of it being a "Billing matter" is a smaokescreen to justify not wanting to investigate a serious crime (max 5 years imprisonment) under the Theft Act. It isn't a Billing matter.

[dx100uk]

its interesting too that i bet each property has their own meter which must of been registered with the power network at sometime, i will have a guess that the various builders all failed in their legal responsibilities at hand over/sale. seems like they knew too.

[dx100uk]

is there a sticker on the meter who originally installed it? typically there is?

and is this supply derived from overhead 33KV cables nearby or is it underground 11KV feed. (rural vs town)

[Man in the middle]

3 hours ago, free1 said:

I did check this out, but the police stated that they will never instigate proceedings, because they have no evidence that a law has been broken

Of course they haven't got any evidence because they haven't set out to find it. It's their job to gather it. But of course, as I intimated in my earlier post, they're most unlikely to investigate it. 

[free1]

@dx100uk "its interesting too that i bet each property has their own meter"

 

I understand that each property has a submeter.  

 

As I understand it, the ruse is this. As the electrical connections were setup by previous owners and has been stable for decades, no current owner can be accused of tampering and extracting. No current owner has done anything "physical". Also, there is no way to prove what the share each owner should pay.

 

In the end, the industry just gives up trying to get these people to pay. Its incredible but true 

 

Now all the latest property owners need to say (to a potential supplier) is  "Where is my meter?, tell me where it is and I will start paying for it"  By contacting the supplier, they have fulfilled their obligation and can no longer be accused of theft. The trail now ends at that point, because by law, no supplier can talk to a DNO about a customer's details. The records that both parties are allowed to look at, show that there is no meter connected to the property, so neither of them can do anything about it

 

"is there a sticker on the meter who originally installed it? typically there is?"

 

yes there is. Incredibly it seems, the meters were installed by officers of the DNO.  

Even though The DNO boss of the area came to have a look (when checking if they were safe) he still said that as far as they were concerned, only a supplier can sort this now. They have done their bit in making sure it is safe - they just said  "It is a billing issue now".

 

It seems that if you want this setup for yourself, all you have to is ask the "right" people who install the initial connection, to also add a meter (that they always seem to have in the back of their van). 

Once it has been installed, you just say "yeah thanks mate, I'll sort it with a supplier later" and you're good to go - free electricity for life.

 

@Man in the middle "Of course they haven't got any evidence because they haven't set out to find it. It's their job to gather it."

 

There is no such department in the police force that investigates electrical wiring. They will only respond if there is a definite crime being committed that mr police man can see for himself (e.g. cannabis farm) 

 

If the Electrical industry will not report it as a crime to the police (and they can't say it is a crime - see previous post), then nothing gets done.

 

I'm hoping that me posting all this, will hopefully get it out in the open how people can legally get free electricity under the current rules, in the hope the industry is so severely embarrassed by this, the rules change, but I'm pretty sure it will never happen.

 

 

[dx100uk]

36 minutes ago, free1 said:

yes there is. Incredibly it seems, the meters were installed by officers of the DNO.  

 

are you saying your meters alone, or the meters in all the properties too?

 

37 minutes ago, free1 said:

I understand that each property has a submeter.  

 

are you using that word because you've actually seen it stated in evidential paperwork you seen?

or well they must be submeters because it is off of a main supply meter on my property??

 

there are serious differential installation and legal requirements which the DNO must comply too, one of which is they must register each meter on their network, and thus the designation of their MPAN numbers.. meters cant just vanish

 

[Ethel Street]

8 hours ago, free1 said:

As I understand it, the ruse is this. As the electrical connections were setup by previous owners and has been stable for decades, no current owner can be accused of tampering and extracting. No current owner has done anything "physical". Also, there is no way to prove what the share each owner should pay.

 

As posted earlier, the CPS are clear that no tampering needs to have taken place.  The legal test for the offence, established by the Court of Appeal is

 

"Provided that they have in fact used the electricity, that they were not authorised to do so and that in doing so they were being dishonest by the standards of ordinary people, the offence will be made out: R v McCreadie (1993) 96 Cr App R 143."

 

"ordinary people" would see this as dishonest. I don't agree that they couldn't be proscuted. It's a lack of will by the police and the industry.  The police aren't being asked to investigate electrical wiring. They are being asked to investigate dishonesty and a s13a offence.

 

See your MP.

[Ethel Street]

8 hours ago, free1 said:

 

I understand that each property has a submeter.  

 

 

I don't know how these work but is it possible the sub meters are registered for each property and they are paying electricity  bills based on their sub meter readings?

 

If the main meter in your outbuilding was registered who would it begistered to if it feeds 6 separate properties? And how would it know how much each property consumed?

 

How is ypour own electricity for your house metered? Do you have a separate meter or is it also coming through the same meter as the 6 houses?

 

Are you legally obliged to let the meter that isn't yours remain in your outbuilding? Or can you require the DNO or someone to move it somewhere else?

[free1]

"are you saying your meters alone, or the meters in all the properties too?"

 

- The DNO is responsible for the wires up to the main meter

- The Supplier arranges to add a meter and is supposed to get it installed, from then on, the supplier owns the meter

- Anything that is connected after the main meter is nothing to do with the DNO and nothing to do with the supplier. Within reason, neither of them care what is connected.

- A main meter CANNOT be installed by a normal electrician, but they CAN install a submeter in the new properties.

- The owners can say "Ah right, this submeter in my house is not a main meter? OK mr. supplier, YOU  tell me where the main meter is" There is no legal requirement for the owner to say where the meter is and of course they just play dumb. The legal requirement is on the supplier to know where the meter is, because the supplier owns the main meter !

 

Edited March 31, 2023 by free1

[free1]

"there are serious differential installation and legal requirements which the DNO must comply too, one of which is they must register each meter on their network"

A main meter can exist in the records without a supplier being referenced to it.

A main meter can exist in the records without an MPAN number attached to it.

Without the information above, the DNO has no idea which property that meter is supposed to be connected to.

 

and thus the designation of their MPAN numbers.. meters cant just vanish"

When someone arranges for a new electrical connection from a DNO, the MPAN "number" is created virtually, and it is allocated to a property (without being assigned to an actual meter).

It is only when the supplier arranges to get the meter installed, that the records are updated with the two main bits as described above.

 

The problem is that if the meter already exists without the 2 bits of information as described above, there is no procedure in the industry to rectify it.

 

I'm thinking this must be the way that the UK government gets power to any secret site when they don't want a public record of it existing, the real records for the UK secret site is held elsewhere in a private database, and this is why the industry just ignores it. 

I can't think of any other reason why the industry would ignore this situation

 

I think I need to lie down - this is getting too much for me!

Edited March 31, 2023 by free1

[free1]

 "is it possible the sub meters are registered for each property and they are paying electricity  bills based on their sub meter readings?

This is what they are supposed to do, but only one entity (someone or company) is supposed to be actual "main meter" account holder.

What should happen is this single "main meter" account holder pays the bill, and then seeks payback from the individual properties, based on the electrical consumption as measured through their sub-meters.

This "main meter" account holder woudl have a nightmare job really - having to divy everything up on a spreadsheet and what if one of the properties refused to pay?

Of course, none of this happens - No-one is the "main meter" account holder .    

 

"If the main meter in your outbuilding was registered who would it begistered to if it feeds 6 separate properties? And how would it know how much each property consumed?"

Good question - one of the properties would have to voluenteer to do the accounting as above.

 

"How is your own electricity for your house metered? Do you have a separate meter or is it also coming through the same meter as the 6 houses?"

I am completely separate from them. We pay our electricity through our own meter and a completely separate connection. 

 

"Are you legally obliged to let the meter that isn't yours remain in your outbuilding?"

The law is that no-one can interfere with other people's electricity supply. If I was to touch it, I am commiting a criminal offence.

With regard to the wiring up to the meter and the meter itself, I do not own it because by law, the supplier owns the maion meter.

 

"Or can you require the DNO or someone to move it somewhere else?"

I can only do this if I am registered to the meter - this is the direction I'm looking at now. I take over being the person allocated to the meter, then I can move or change it to prepay or something, 

Edited March 31, 2023 by free1

[free1]

3 hours ago, Ethel Street said:

that in doing so they were being dishonest by the standards of ordinary people,

 

You keep saying this, but you are missing the point - The people who get free electricity are satisfying the standards of ordinary people

All a person has to do to pass that standards bar is  "Where is my meter?, tell me where it is and I will pay" 

[Ethel Street]

I am not missing the point @free1 

 

The standards of honesty of ordinary people used by the courts do not include a belief that it's OK to use electricity without paying for it for up to 20 years.  Nobody genuinely believes they are entitled to free electricity. The question they'd have to answer in court would be what steps they had actually taken to get their meter registered.

[BazzaS]

if you are that bothered:

Register the meter. Inform the property owners you have done so, and they need to supply you with their submeter readings (and let you know if they are paying already).

 

Sorted.

Edited March 31, 2023 by BazzaS

[free1]

@Ethel Street Put it this way, this ruse has worked for 20 years or so. 

 

 

 

[free1]

@BazzaS 

 

Yes - Was on the phone to a supplier this morning - Even trying to do this is proving difficult to setup because the meter already exists.

 

So no, the "sorted" comment doesn't apply either   There is the potential issue of backbilling that needs to be resolved

 

Edited March 31, 2023 by free1

[Ethel Street]

A crime doesn't become less of a crime just because it has gone on for a long time undetected.

[BazzaS]

1 hour ago, free1 said:

@BazzaS 

 

Yes - Was on the phone to a supplier this morning - Even trying to do this is proving difficult to setup because the meter already exists.

 

“We’d like to move our supply to you: the Meter number is…..”

 

1 hour ago, free1 said:

 

So no, the "sorted" comment doesn't apply either   There is the potential issue of backbilling that needs to be resolved

 

To the premises owners:  “Let me know if you are already paying, I’ll ask them to take it off the” (last year ‘s only!) “back-billing.”

[free1]

16 minutes ago, BazzaS said:

 

“We’d like to move our supply to you: the Meter number is…..”

 

To the premises owners:  “Let me know if you are already paying, I’ll ask them to take it off the” (last year ‘s only!) “back-billing.”

 

No - this will not work as simply as you say - the meter is missing an MPAN.  

[BazzaS]

12 minutes ago, free1 said:

 

No - this will not work as simply as you say - the meter is missing an MPAN.  

Then how does this fit with:

”The only way I could can get some written proof, was to email MPAS, and ask them for the suppliers allocated to the meter that are in my property.

They were able to confirm that the meters have NEVER been officially taken on by a supplier for a very long time, simpy because the field that records the supplier is empty - no GDPRrisk here as they have not told me anything "personal"

 

How did MPAS get the info for the meter, and if they did, can’t they give you its MPAN (since that isn’t personal info…)

Edited March 31, 2023 by BazzaS

[free1]

 

What you have missed is the third bit of info about an electricity meter - the meter's serial number.

I gave that number to MPAS !!!

In the case I am describing, the meter serial number is recorded in the database  (i.e. the meter is registered) i.e. there is a data record in the database that holds the "serial number" and as I understand things, some info about the location e.g. maybe postcode? (not sure about that one) , but the 2 fields which are supposed to hold the "MPAN number" and the "supplier" are empty.

 

Heres an example of what is supposed to happen (using SP as an example for the graphic) - it is as stage 4 that all three pieces of info are supposed to be linked together. However, a meter can also be registered outside this process - just using its serial number. Historically, there are apparently loads of records in the database like this which are old and out of date (think demolished houses etc) 

 

 

what has to be understood (for anyone who wants free electricity), is that if they get the connections team to install a meter at the same time as when they enable a connection to the main fuse (which must not be on your property, ideally, the meter has to be sited in someone else's property), then you don't have to go through steps 2,3 and 4 to get a meter installed and you can play this trick yourself.

 

Just sit back,have a cigar, think how clever you are and laugh at everyone else who pays their bills.   

 

Whenever someone asks - you just say "Where is my main meter?"

(it works best for the 2nd owner of the property)

 

Everything I am saying is apparently legit. bear in mind It is the Connections team that is connecting the meter

 

I'm really hoping this thread gets noticed, because this practise really needs to be stopped

 

Interesting - I did find this. It is clear that the industry have agreed to ignore billing in this situation, and also they have agreed it is not a crime as such.

 

Getting unregistered consumers registered by a supplier - DCUSA

WWW.DCUSA.CO.UK

 

A minority of customers find themselves consuming electricity outside the normal supplier registration process i.e. without being registered by a supplier, these customers are sometimes referred to as "untraded"....
....If a customer is slow to approach a supplier the situation may remain unresolved for months or even years.

Because these customers have no supplier then the supplier powers of disconnection are not relevant. The DNO does have powers of disconnection but this is for safety reasons. The DNO can levy a charge on the customer via the schedule 6 scheme but if the customer cannot or will not pay then they cannot be disconnected.

 

Resolving Unregistered Customers - DCUSA

WWW.DCUSA.CO.UK

 

DCP209 - Resolving Unregistered Customers||This CP seeks to improve communications with unregistered customers, set out processes for managing unregistered customers up to, but excluding, the registration process itself and where necessary new obligations on parties.||?Related Issue: DIF 028 'Getting Unregistered Consumers Registered By A Supplier' discussed at the Standing Issues Group and located on the issues register. - STATUS Ceased

 

@Ethel Street

Licence obligations have been placed on Suppliers to deal with situations of electricity theft, but unregistered consumers do not necessarily fall within the definition of theft. The current market arrangements do not place any specific obligation on Distributors or Suppliers to deal with unregistered consumers, nor is there any existing guidance on how best to handle the process once unregistered consumers are identified.