What you have missed is the third bit of info about an electricity meter - the meter's serial number. I gave that number to MPAS !!! In the case I am describing, the meter serial number is recorded in the database (i.e. the meter is registered) i.e. there is a data record in the database that holds the "serial number" and as I understand things, some info about the location e.g. maybe postcode? (not sure about that one) , but the 2 fields which are supposed to hold the "MPAN number" and the "supplier" are empty. Heres an example of what is supposed to happen (using SP as an example for the graphic) - it is as stage 4 that all three pieces of info are supposed to be linked together. However, a meter can also be registered outside this process - just using its serial number. Historically, there are apparently loads of records in the database like this which are old and out of date (think demolished houses etc) what has to be understood (for anyone who wants free electricity), is that if they get the connections team to install a meter at the same time as when they enable a connection to the main fuse (which must not be on your property, ideally, the meter has to be sited in someone else's property), then you don't have to go through steps 2,3 and 4 to get a meter installed and you can play this trick yourself. Just sit back,have a cigar, think how clever you are and laugh at everyone else who pays their bills. Whenever someone asks - you just say "Where is my main meter?" (it works best for the 2nd owner of the property) Everything I am saying is apparently legit. bear in mind It is the Connections team that is connecting the meter I'm really hoping this thread gets noticed, because this practise really needs to be stopped Interesting - I did find this. It is clear that the industry have agreed to ignore billing in this situation, and also they have agreed it is not a crime as such. Getting unregistered consumers registered by a supplier - DCUSA WWW.DCUSA.CO.UK A minority of customers find themselves consuming electricity outside the normal supplier registration process i.e. without being registered by a supplier, these customers are sometimes referred to as "untraded".... ....If a customer is slow to approach a supplier the situation may remain unresolved for months or even years. Because these customers have no supplier then the supplier powers of disconnection are not relevant. The DNO does have powers of disconnection but this is for safety reasons. The DNO can levy a charge on the customer via the schedule 6 scheme but if the customer cannot or will not pay then they cannot be disconnected. Resolving Unregistered Customers - DCUSA WWW.DCUSA.CO.UK DCP209 - Resolving Unregistered Customers||This CP seeks to improve communications with unregistered customers, set out processes for managing unregistered customers up to, but excluding, the registration process itself and where necessary new obligations on parties.||?Related Issue: DIF 028 'Getting Unregistered Consumers Registered By A Supplier' discussed at the Standing Issues Group and located on the issues register. - STATUS Ceased @Ethel Street Licence obligations have been placed on Suppliers to deal with situations of electricity theft, but unregistered consumers do not necessarily fall within the definition of theft. The current market arrangements do not place any specific obligation on Distributors or Suppliers to deal with unregistered consumers, nor is there any existing guidance on how best to handle the process once unregistered consumers are identified.

No - this will not work as simply as you say - the meter is missing an MPAN.

@BazzaS Yes - Was on the phone to a supplier this morning - Even trying to do this is proving difficult to setup because the meter already exists. So no, the "sorted" comment doesn't apply either There is the potential issue of backbilling that needs to be resolved

@Ethel Street Put it this way, this ruse has worked for 20 years or so.

You keep saying this, but you are missing the point - The people who get free electricity are satisfying the standards of ordinary people All a person has to do to pass that standards bar is "Where is my meter?, tell me where it is and I will pay"

"is it possible the sub meters are registered for each property and they are paying electricity bills based on their sub meter readings? This is what they are supposed to do, but only one entity (someone or company) is supposed to be actual "main meter" account holder. What should happen is this single "main meter" account holder pays the bill, and then seeks payback from the individual properties, based on the electrical consumption as measured through their sub-meters. This "main meter" account holder woudl have a nightmare job really - having to divy everything up on a spreadsheet and what if one of the properties refused to pay? Of course, none of this happens - No-one is the "main meter" account holder . "If the main meter in your outbuilding was registered who would it begistered to if it feeds 6 separate properties? And how would it know how much each property consumed?" Good question - one of the properties would have to voluenteer to do the accounting as above. "How is your own electricity for your house metered? Do you have a separate meter or is it also coming through the same meter as the 6 houses?" I am completely separate from them. We pay our electricity through our own meter and a completely separate connection. "Are you legally obliged to let the meter that isn't yours remain in your outbuilding?" The law is that no-one can interfere with other people's electricity supply. If I was to touch it, I am commiting a criminal offence. With regard to the wiring up to the meter and the meter itself, I do not own it because by law, the supplier owns the maion meter. "Or can you require the DNO or someone to move it somewhere else?" I can only do this if I am registered to the meter - this is the direction I'm looking at now. I take over being the person allocated to the meter, then I can move or change it to prepay or something,

"there are serious differential installation and legal requirements which the DNO must comply too, one of which is they must register each meter on their network" A main meter can exist in the records without a supplier being referenced to it. A main meter can exist in the records without an MPAN number attached to it. Without the information above, the DNO has no idea which property that meter is supposed to be connected to. and thus the designation of their MPAN numbers.. meters cant just vanish" When someone arranges for a new electrical connection from a DNO, the MPAN "number" is created virtually, and it is allocated to a property (without being assigned to an actual meter). It is only when the supplier arranges to get the meter installed, that the records are updated with the two main bits as described above. The problem is that if the meter already exists without the 2 bits of information as described above, there is no procedure in the industry to rectify it. I'm thinking this must be the way that the UK government gets power to any secret site when they don't want a public record of it existing, the real records for the UK secret site is held elsewhere in a private database, and this is why the industry just ignores it. I can't think of any other reason why the industry would ignore this situation I think I need to lie down - this is getting too much for me!

"are you saying your meters alone, or the meters in all the properties too?" - The DNO is responsible for the wires up to the main meter - The Supplier arranges to add a meter and is supposed to get it installed, from then on, the supplier owns the meter - Anything that is connected after the main meter is nothing to do with the DNO and nothing to do with the supplier. Within reason, neither of them care what is connected. - A main meter CANNOT be installed by a normal electrician, but they CAN install a submeter in the new properties. - The owners can say "Ah right, this submeter in my house is not a main meter? OK mr. supplier, YOU tell me where the main meter is" There is no legal requirement for the owner to say where the meter is and of course they just play dumb. The legal requirement is on the supplier to know where the meter is, because the supplier owns the main meter !

@dx100uk "its interesting too that i bet each property has their own meter" I understand that each property has a submeter. As I understand it, the ruse is this. As the electrical connections were setup by previous owners and has been stable for decades, no current owner can be accused of tampering and extracting. No current owner has done anything "physical". Also, there is no way to prove what the share each owner should pay. In the end, the industry just gives up trying to get these people to pay. Its incredible but true Now all the latest property owners need to say (to a potential supplier) is "Where is my meter?, tell me where it is and I will start paying for it" By contacting the supplier, they have fulfilled their obligation and can no longer be accused of theft. The trail now ends at that point, because by law, no supplier can talk to a DNO about a customer's details. The records that both parties are allowed to look at, show that there is no meter connected to the property, so neither of them can do anything about it "is there a sticker on the meter who originally installed it? typically there is?" yes there is. Incredibly it seems, the meters were installed by officers of the DNO. Even though The DNO boss of the area came to have a look (when checking if they were safe) he still said that as far as they were concerned, only a supplier can sort this now. They have done their bit in making sure it is safe - they just said "It is a billing issue now". It seems that if you want this setup for yourself, all you have to is ask the "right" people who install the initial connection, to also add a meter (that they always seem to have in the back of their van). Once it has been installed, you just say "yeah thanks mate, I'll sort it with a supplier later" and you're good to go - free electricity for life. @Man in the middle "Of course they haven't got any evidence because they haven't set out to find it. It's their job to gather it." There is no such department in the police force that investigates electrical wiring. They will only respond if there is a definite crime being committed that mr police man can see for himself (e.g. cannabis farm) If the Electrical industry will not report it as a crime to the police (and they can't say it is a crime - see previous post), then nothing gets done. I'm hoping that me posting all this, will hopefully get it out in the open how people can legally get free electricity under the current rules, in the hope the industry is so severely embarrassed by this, the rules change, but I'm pretty sure it will never happen.

"im talking about your deeds." Yes, it is in my deeds - With a sufficient description (for them) and also access rights (for them). I also know that it is reflected in their deeds Another thing, If for some reason their electricity developped a fault (!) , I can't stop them coming in look at the meters e.g. to reset a switch. Also, they are not stupid, they have taken a picture of the meter/wiring, so if anything changed (i.e. a meter removed) , I would have to give a very convincing reason to the police why I wasn't involved in some way. After all it is in a locked room and I am the only one that has the key!

" "if there is no easement or whatever it is or mention on the deeds/plans it shouldn't be there , the 3phase cable to the barn was fitted by the previous owner that eventually after 65yrs split and sold the estate, so nothing to do with any electric co. so they couldn't lay claim to it nor stop him" I think this is the main problem for me, these guys do have that easement in their deeds.

I did check this out, but the police stated that they will never instigate proceedings, because they have no evidence that a law has been broken and they have no expertise in this area What the police told me. was that nothing would be refered to the CPS by the police, unless a DNO or Supplier instructed the police to do so. This is the problem, the DNO and Supplier are both saying "nothing to do with me". I even had the DNO insist to me that I had to raise a crime ref first. What a load of rubbish. The probelm is that I can;t prove a crime has been commited because the Supplier and DNO individually refuse to confirm that something is wrong, and they are not allowed to communicate with each other without incurring a severe penalty (As I understand it) You can quote that line as much as possible, but as far as I know, members of the public don't actually talk to the CPS, the police do. The police has to decide if somethign is worth taking to the CPS and if the police say "No, we're not refering it to CPS", then how do you get everyone to do their job?

Many thanks for this "he sued the builders and won for not registering the supply connection/cables or something properly." Sadly for me, the various builders have long since gone, some are bust now and it would be impossible to work out which builder was to blame "checked his deeds ...and found no mention of the cable on or existing on his land, so got it disconnected, dug it all up and left it coiled up over the boundary." I would love to do this too!

"But arguably the people using the electricity are guilty under s13 of the Theft Act ("Abstracting Electricity"):" This has been confirmed as a NO - by police, the DNO and supplier. This act is only when they have tampered with the supply. In this case, it is merely a "Billing" issue - if anything it is formally decalred as being the fault of the supplier, even though they were never involved with installing the meter in the first place.

"they do not have a legal right to the meter" This is the bit I need advice on. As said earlier, even the revenue protection officer said that even with a crime ref, they can't switch off a supply if someone says that doing so will affect someone vulnerable. It seems that in law, a "billing" issue is low down on the priority when compared to other laws. The problem as I understand it - I can't get switched it off permanently (These people have a right it get it switched back on) - I can't touch the meter - I can't force them to accept they have to pay for the electricity they use - No-one can stop this situation.

"Nor could it be proved you switched it off I think I would be looking for a friendly qualified electrician " yes - I did think about this - I wish it was as easy as that. Unfortunately, we'd have to justify how someone got through a locked door into our "property" where the meter is. Also, after the first attempt, I'm pretty sure the police would arrest ME the next time it happened, as the people affected would make sure they advised the police accordingly on what the law is, I'm sure I will be accused of being aggressive etc. They would just ask the police to tell me that I am not to touch their electricity supply, and as it would be a clearly proveable breach of law, the police would probably arrest me for a statement (This is why I haven't done it). One thing to bear in mind, the people enjoying free electricity are quite capable of playing dirty and ganging up to say the same thing. Its horrible really Also, the people affected have an easement to access where the meter is. They know all about the meter, what the law is, how it is connected and know exactly what to do to "switch it back on"

"Have you tried the Energy Ombudsman ?" Thanks for suggestion - yes, already tried this. The script of questions only seemed to allow for me to make a complaint about a supplier (but technically, its not a supplier fault). I did try to complete the script of questions, but after I submitted it as best I could, I got no response back anyway - zip. The incredible thing is - If I was to switch off the supply, I understand the police would arrest me because I am "interfering with someone else's supply". It seems that I would be at fault in law, because I would not be able to prove that the meter is associated to me. All I want to do, is force the people who use the meter to pay for the electricity used, to ensure that the wires don't burn up again. The revenue protection officer told me that 9 times out of 10, they are called out to disconnect electricity to cannabis farms. He said that if anyone at the cannabis farm said there was someone vulnerable there (that could not be charged by police and taken away), then the revenue protection team and police were forbidden to switch the electricity off, even with the police being there. The law is a mess.

outhouse is connected to the house. We are currently thinking of making the drastic step of taking ownership of the meters ourselves, and then trying to find a way put prepay meters in. Ethel, just in case you are thinking their is a poveryty issue here, the people who are using free electricity are in no way poverty stricken. 3 of them have just recently started charging their wife's new electric cars. For us, the issue is that the electricity consumption is only going to increase, and their is no filter on its use by cost. Can anyone help with advice on taking ownership of meters?

"do you know what they are doing to use so much electricity? " We now understand that this situation built up over a loooong time (20 years). There are approximately 6 large properties that are drawing free electricity. Apparently, each of the properties were using electric radiators in every room in their house over winter. We estimate that this one "3 phase meter" was consuming over £10,000 per month at the time, with each phase limited to 100 amps . Technically, no law is being broken "That isn't true. An unregistered meter isn't relevant to insurance" Whilst we are grateful that the DNO came out to validate that the meter and wiring is "safe", no-one owns the meter and subsequent wiring. There is no-one to sue if it happens again. We understand that it will be our fault that we have overheating wiring in our house. Also, why should we have to pay extra to insure against this?

Yes - the people are known - We have given the names and addresses TO ALL OF THESE departments, but the replies are - From DNO These meters have no supplier allocated. The people who use it have to register it with a supplier, you can't do it for them. We cannot change the data - MPAS We have no record of who the supplier is. We cannot change the data - From a supplier e.g. BG Sorry, we can only deal with meters that are allocated to us, these meters are not ours. The people who use the meter have to register it with us otherwise We cannot change the data - Police No crime has been committed, nothing to do with us We cannot change the data - UKRPA We just give the details to the DNO - we don't actually do anything else We cannot change the data - OFFGEM Clueless - there are no procedures for this situation We cannot change the data - Connections department We installed the connection, thats our job finished - Its not our business to install a meter, suppliers do that We cannot change the data The problem is that the meter was installed and there is no record who did it. The DNO came out and inspected the meter to check it was safe, they said nothing more they can do. We cannot change the data It is astonishing that NOONE can sort this out for us.

Can anyone give advice on how to force a user that uses electricity from an unregistered electricity meter, to register it with a supplier and pay for it? Before anyone says "Whats it to do with you?", it is because the meters are in an outbuilding we own, which almost burnt down last year because one of the cables starting burning up from excessive electricity consumption, almost setting fire to our house. We have tried to involve the DNO (who repaired the cables), A potential supplier, the police, UKRPA, OFFGEM and Connections department. Everyone shifts the blame to the other. It is reallty shocking that in the electrical supply industry, literaly no part of the industry wants to deal with this situation. It seems that if you find yourself in this situation, just enjoy free electricity for life We believe our house is technically uninsurable against a fire risk because no-one is saying they own the meter - What on earth can we do ? Please help