not getting £425 deposit back :(

[knoxvillain]

I moved out of my old flat on Dec 17th so that I could live closer to my fiancee. I cleaned the flat from top to bottom before I left and left it in what I thought was good condition. My landlord's deposit return requirements were he needed a receipted copy of my council tax, electricty and phone bills to show the accounts had been settled. I provided these to him a couple of weeks later after pay day. About a week later I hadn't heard from him so I texted him asking if he received my bills and within about a minute he phoned me and said he had received them but that he was waiting on an "exit report" being completed because of the mess I had left the place in He said:

 

• there were "marks all over the walls". Now there were 2 marks that I am aware of which I full accept, one in the bedroom where my wakeboard fell against the wall and put a small dent in the plasterboard and a similar mark in the livingroom. I'll quite happily pay to let him repair them but I don't accept "marks all over the walls" as being accurate.
  
• The hall floor was left dirty. The hall has lino in it and there are some dirty marks on it but they were there when I moved in and the day I met him to move in, he showed me round the flat and even commented that the previous person hadn't cleaned the floor. I subsequently tried to clean it as I moved in but I could remove the marks. I never raised the issue with him because it didn't seem like a big deal to me. The only thing is I don't have any photographic proof of what the flat was like when I moved in.
  
• He complained that my dog had chewed his kitchen units. Again there was one bit that sticks out down near floor level that my dog chewed when he was just a puppy but it's a tiny little bit. I do accept that I am responsible for this damage and would happily compensate him for it.

This is all I am aware of so far. Like I said, I only know this because I got him to phone me. I haven't had anything in writing. It sounds to me like he intends to keep my whole deposit which seem exessive to me and I am annoyed he's kept this to himself and not written to me to let me know whats happening. Can someone confirm if this is correct:

 

• He can only keep enough of my deposit as to reasonably make the repairs required. He can't keep the whole lot just to punish me for leaving a small amount of damage?
  
• Do I need to be able to prove the floor was like that when I moved in or is it down to him to prove it wasn't like that?
  
• If he keeps my deposit to make repairs, he MUST make the repairs and be able to show me evidence of them, ie an invoice?

Any help would be appreciated. I live in Scotland by the way.

 

Thanks,

 

Ian

[demon_x_slash]

I I cleaned the flat from top to bottom before I left and left it in what I thought was good condition.

 

You said you have no photographic proof of the condition of the flat when you moved in. What about when you moved out? Did you take pictures to show the general state of the flat? Did you have an inventory taken when you moved in, and an inventory when you moved out?

 

My landlord's deposit return requirements were he needed a receipted copy of my council tax, electricty and phone bills to show the accounts had been settled.

 

 

These have nothing to do with him - utilities and tax are in your name and you are liable, not the landlord, so he shouldn't have been bothered with these.

 

He can only keep enough of my deposit as to reasonably make the repairs required. He can't keep the whole lot just to punish me for leaving a small amount of damage?

 

Of course not. He can only charge to make good damage, and damage that doesn't fall under general wear and tear. For how long did you live in the flat? If they are small dents as you say, then a tub of polyfilla and a dab of paint is all that's needed - but again, it depends on the extent of damage we're talking about.

 

Do I need to be able to prove the floor was like that when I moved in or is it down to him to prove it wasn't like that?

 

If there was no entry or exit inventory then he has to prove that you caused those marks. He can charge you for getting a company in to try and clean it, or £7 an hour for trying to clean it himself - do you know what caused the marks (you said you couldn't get them off)? Do you know how old the lino is? If he tries to charge you for a replacement, he is not allowed betterment - he can only charge you for what the lino is worth at its current stage (not for a brand new replacement).

 

If he keeps my deposit to make repairs, he MUST make the repairs and be able to show me evidence of them, ie an invoice?

 

Yes, he must be able to prove that all deductions are lawful, and for that he needs receipts and invoices, especially if he takes the above route and gets in a cleaning company/replaces flooring. If he does the work himself, there is a rate set by the court that he can work for (as I said, about £7ph).

He must give reasons for each deduction AND, without an entry/exit inventory, proof that the damage was caused during your tenancy.

If you need more info just ask. Nightmare4Banks was on here yesterday, I see - an excellent adviser who will no doubt be able to give you the actual regulations and Acts behind all the above

[knoxvillain]

Unfortunately I didn't take photos. Having rented a few different places over the past couple of years and never had a problem I guess I got complacent.

 

I'm told an entry report was done and I've requested a copy of the exit report from the company that performed it.

 

The flat is about a year and a half old and I lived there for 12 months. From Nov 05 to Nov 06. I guess the fact that the flat was so new means the small amount of damage sticks out much more than an older building.

[Nightmare4banks]

Hi all!

 

To begin with,thanks demon for making me more big headed than I already am!!lol!

 

Anyway,now knoxvillian in reply to your post and in my view:

 

1.You should have taken photos of the property before you leave - BIG MISTAKE!!!Because once you have closed the door of the flat and returned the keys there is no going back.Basically it is your word against his.By the way do you have any friends/relatives that have visited you who are willing to provide a witness statement should the need arise to go to court regarding say the flooring mainly?

2.The landlord should be compensated for the dog chew marks as you have said yourself plus the dents.The amount would depend on how much it would cost to make the "wrong right".

3.Regarding the bills,I would say that you should as you have done send copies not originals of the fully paid bills.The gas and electric bills could NEVER become the responsibilty of the owner because as long as he/she shows a copy of the agreement and the fact he/she lives elsewhere this will fully discharge his/her liabilty.However the council tax and water rates are a slightly different ballgame and I wiil now elaborate further now why -

 

COUNCIL TAX....

 

Whenever a property becomes vacant,liability of the council tax IMMEDIATELY falls on the owner(until a new tenant is found).If the owner does not have the correct paperwork he/she could potentially be held liable to pay it or have problems with the exemption periods if and when he and she qualifies.This could also be extended and apply to filling out the tax return with accurate amounts regarding rental income and allowable expenditure of which the council tax would be as such.

 

WATER RATES...

 

I know for a fact that owners can be persued and taken to court/get a CCJ for unpaid water rates by their tenants as the water companies could obtain the name of the owner from the land registry.Although,he/she could go back to court to get it set aside/removed.The fact that the tenant has provided proof of payment puts the owner at ease and also once the property becomes empty he/she would ALWAYS have to pay the water rates again until a new tenant is found.There are NEVER voids in water rate bills and therefore the owner would be assisted if he/she had proof that the tenant had paid for the tax return reasons as mentioned regarding the council tax as the water rates is an allowable expense.

 

NON PAYMENT OF BILLS - POSSIBLE POTENTIAL IMPLICATION ON TENANT WHEN PERSUING LANDLORD FOR DEPOSIT

 

In my view there is no reason whatsoever why the tenant cannot provide proof that the bills have been paid regardless.A tenant who does not pay the bills and then persues the owner in court for the deposit could have any knowledgable owner potentially argue that the tenant entered into the agreement by a form of misrepresentation/fraud i.e.the tenant signed the agreement with the knowledge of the rent and other liabilities and has not honoured his/her/ their part of the agreement fully.

 

GENERALLY SPEAKING...

 

A tenant should be able to claim interest on a deposit that is withheld - at the county court rate of 8% - simple interest.

 

ALSO...

 

In all deductions from tenant deposits as in a court of law the reasonability test is ALWAYS applied.

 

Please note I have no knowledge about the law in Scotland but these are my views on this subject based on my vast personal experience/associates with their experiences that I know who are private landlords.

 

I hope you find this information useful.

 

If you any questions,just ask.

 

Keep us posted.

 

All the best!

[knoxvillain]

thanks for the response Nightmare4banks. Both my brother and my fiancee helped me move out and so saw the state the place was left in. I'm sure both would provide witness statements to back me up should the landlord try to claim for things that didn't actually happen. hopefully he doesn't go down that road.

 

Just to be clear, I do acknowledge that there was some damage (the dents and dog chew marks) and I understand deducations can be made from my deposit for this. what I don't accept is the withholding of all £425 for this. Furthermore, I'm annoyed by my landlord's lack of communication and lack of details in writing. I want to get this sorted out and get the part of my deposit I am due.

 

My bills are paid and I have provided him with the evidence of this so thats not an issue.

 

I intend to send him this letter:

 

Dear Landlord,

 

Deposit for 21/8 xxxxxxx street, xxxxxxxx

 

It has now been almost a month since I vacated the above property and I have yet to receive any of my deposit back or a written list of any damage which you wish to repair using my deposit.

 

Please provide me with a detailed list of all outstanding issues. I will also require copies of receipts/invoices for work carried out or quotes for work of this nature.

 

The landlord must remember, as it is the tenant’s money, he has to account for it properly. It is a very common misconception, that the deposit belongs to the landlord- it is not so and the withholding of it without proper validation is illegal.

 

You cannot withhold the deposit for the general “wear and tear”. Landlords must redecorate the property from their own expenses and tenants are only held liable for damages, which create additional costs to the landlord. Deposits are not there to provide redecoration fund.

 

I look forward to receiving your written reply within 14 days of postmark.

 

Yours Faithfully,

 

 

 

 

knoxvillain

 

Sections of which were taken from the very helpful letter provided by Joa in this thread -> Unfair deposit deductions.

 

At the moment I am seeking communication from my landlord and exact details of what the problems where and what he intends to do about them. If I receive a reply from him to the above letter I will consider it and take it from there. If I don't recieve a reply in 14 days I will send him a much stronger letter which will mention court action (which I want to leave out at this stage). I have also spoken to the company who did the exit report and I should hopefully have a copy of that in my posession tomorrow or Tuesday.

[demon_x_slash]

Sounds like you're on the right track. Good luck! Let us know how you get on

[knoxvillain]

cheers

 

Letter posted today 1st Class Recorded. Also included a copy of the ARLA PDF given in the above link. I've given him 14 days which takes him to Christmas. I'll leave it over Christmas/New Year if I haven't heard back from him and then on jan 3rd I'll send an LBA giving him 14 more days.

[knoxvillain]

letter showing as delivered this morning. He has until Jan 3rd to reply then I'll be sending LBA.

[callumsgran]

Personally i wouldn't give him until the 3rd of Jan, i would send it on the 28th!

Good luck with it anyway, i will be watching with great interest as i think i will be having the same problems soon

[knoxvillain]

Thanks!I did think about sticking to the 14 days but then I figure, season of goodwill and all that plus the mail will probably still be really slow thn and it probably won't arrive until Jan anyways!

[Nightmare4banks]

knoxvillian,just a suggestion:

 

In the future,you could word your letters as follows:

 

"ten working days from bla ignoring weekends and public holidays"

 

All the best with your claim!

[knoxvillain]

good idea

 

Still no response from Landlord

[knoxvillain]

ok so I FINALLY got a reply from my landlord and he is asking for money on top of my £425 deposit:

 

£80 to clean the carpets

£20 for shower seal (????)

£80 for general cleaning

£60 Painting & repairs

£58.75 for exit report from Letting company

£798.58 to repair chew marks on ONE kitchen cupboard!!!! wtf!!!

 

The £798.58 is made up of:

 

£489.64 "Zeit Maple 3 Drawer Pack 500mm Wide, plinth, handle"

£190 Labour (!!!!!)

£118.94 VAT

Total: £798.58

 

HELP! He's given me 14 days to pay the difference of £662.33 or he says he'll take me to small claims!

 

i'll try and scan the photo of the small amount of damage caused by the dog for which he's trying to charge me £800 for!

 

What you see is on the left, the bottom corner of the fridge. The top right of the picture you can see the bottom of the cupboard door. This is the end panel which sticks out a little. That is the ONLY damage to the kitchen and he wants £800 for it!

 

HELP!!!

[knoxvillain]

Dear Mr Landbaron,

Deposit for 21/8 xxxxxxx Street, Xxxxxxx

Thank you for your letter dated 19th December 2006. Unfortunately, you have failed to provide me with all the information I requested.

I require a copy of the entry report for the above property detailing the condition of the property when I entered in November 2005.

Also, I did not receive a copy of any quotations or invoices for the items noted below. Are these items being performed by a third party company or are you, as the landlord, intending to carry out the work yourself and charge an hourly rate?

• £80 - “Specialist Cleaning – carpets throughout”
  
• £20 – “shower seal”
  
• £80 – “general cleaning to property”
  
• £60 – “painting/repairs”

I look forward to receiving the additional information within 7 days.

Please note that any legal action you may be considering taking will be defended rigorously.

Yours Faithfully,

Knoxvillain

[knoxvillain]

 

1. Minor damage to an item, a small to medium stain or mark on a carpet or mattress etc – perhaps £15 - £35 e.g. the cost of a "spot" clean or, this amount as the tenants’ contribution to a full clean of the whole item, or as compensation for the diminution. A small to medium size chip or mark, scratch or burn on a kitchen worktop - perhaps £5 - £25. A landlord could of course decide purchase a new item, to have a new carpet put down or a new kitchen worktop installed if they wished,

but, they cannot lawfully charge the tenant for that full cost. The costs should be apportioned and shared between the parties on the principles given above. E.g. Cost of new carpet £500 – apportioned £465 to landlord, £35 to tenant.

 

 

2. In the rare circumstances where damage (to the worktop/carpet/mattress/item etc) is so extensive or severe so as to affect the achievable rent level/lettability or quality of the property the most appropriate remedy might be replacement and to apportion costs according to the age and useful lifespan of the item.

 

 

 

 

 

Referring the above from ARLA's guidelines on deposits, damage and disputs. With regards to the dog chew marks, I think it is completely unreasonable of the Landlord to expect £800 to replace the whole unit. Given how minor the damage is and what I've read from ARLA, I think an offer of £50 would be reasonable.

 

 

Thoughts on this?

 

 

Also, I saw on another thread that the court would only accept £7.50 as the Landlord's hourly rate. Where can this be found?

[Nightmare4banks]

knoxvillian,in reply to your last post:

 

1.Try and obtain from him the exit report that he has.

2.This landlord could be trying to bluff you rather than really have these damage costs which seem excessive to put you off persuing him - so do not worry too much.Accordingly,you bluff him as well i.e.you do not object in him counterclaiming against you but it has to be justified and you are not afraid to carry on with your claim.

3.We will probably need to go through the items that were damaged in more detail again(something more you to mull over,make some enquiries and then we work out more realistically how much any of the damage has costed as a loss to this former landlord.

 

However,let's wait to receive some feedback on the exit report.

 

4.Remember that litigation has nothing to with money claims but it is to do with "war of wits" and believing in yourself.

 

Once you get the reply for point 1,post it here so I will try and suggest the way forward in order to properly kick this landlord's a**!

[haileyphull]

Hi there, can i just make one suggestion here? My husband is a solicitor, if i am sending things like legal letters ALWAYS put on the top "without prejudice". This stops the person you sent it to using it as evidence in a court of law. Just thought you might find this helpful if the landlord gets 'stroppy'

 

Hope it helps

 

Hailey:-D

 

 

 

 

knoxvillian,in reply to your last post:

 

1.Try and obtain from him the exit report that he has.

2.This landlord could be trying to bluff you rather than really have these damage costs which seem excessive to put you off persuing him - so do not worry too much.Accordingly,you bluff him as well i.e.you do not object in him counterclaiming against you but it has to be justified and you are not afraid to carry on with your claim.

3.We will probably need to go through the items that were damaged in more detail again(something more you to mull over,make some enquiries and then we work out more realistically how much any of the damage has costed as a loss to this former landlord.

 

However,let's wait to receive some feedback on the exit report.

 

4.Remember that litigation has nothing to with money claims but it is to do with "war of wits" and believing in yourself.

 

Once you get the reply for point 1,post it here so I will try and suggest the way forward in order to properly kick this landlord's a**!

[cariad mo brwydrwr]

Hi there, can i just make one suggestion here? My husband is a solicitor, if i am sending things like legal letters ALWAYS put on the top "without prejudice". This stops the person you sent it to using it as evidence in a court of law. Just thought you might find this helpful if the landlord gets 'stroppy'

 

I'm pretty sure there has been advice on CAG not to play fast and loose with 'without prejudice' letters. They can still be submitted at the judges descretion anyway, so it doesn't completely rule it out as evidence. Also, I would have thought you would want to keep all your letters to be able to use as evidence that you're playing by the rules and being as fair and rational as possible? Just my opinion

[demon_x_slash]

I agree - as long as you believe you are right, and you're operating strictly within the law, you should have no reason to put Without Prejudice on a letter. Basically, don't write anything that you wouldn't want a judge to see, and you're in the right mindset

[knoxvillain]

Actually the way he is going about things, I am more than happy for my letters to be shown to him, in fact, I would love it. I have put in multiple requests for information and I have always been polite and professional in my requests. He is getting personal (not in a rude way) and writes in an angry way.

 

I have a copy of the exit report already NIghtmare4banks, this is where the above picture came from. Personally I don't agree with the exit report, it is worded far too strongly and doesn't reflect the actually cleanliness of the flat but it was done by an letting agent so how could I argue against my landlord and a letting agent.

 

Do you want me to scan the exit report?

[demon_x_slash]

I'd quite like to see the landlord's letters themselves - however, not for any professional reason, I just like to see idiots trip themselves up If they're too personal, or would inflence your proceedings in any way, don't worry about it; just thought I'd be cheeky and ask

[knoxvillain]

[knoxvillain]

the damage he refers to by the dog and is trying to charge me £800 for is pictured furtherup this thread. I'm glad he admitted in this letter that he did give me permission to have the dog because it was only verbal permission he gave me at the time.

 

My letter (a few posts above) now showing as delivered this morning. Good old Special Delivery Merry Christmas Landbaron.

[Nightmare4banks]

knoxvillian,post the exit report so we can read it and hopefully give you more guidance.

 

By the way,his letter is fairly hollow and with no substance.

[jamesbond]

i am with the landlord on this one...he was decent enough to allow you to have a dog which many many would not and the price of the units are expensive, i recently myself had to purchase two extra units for my kitchen..

there are dodgy landlords out there and there are some that are ok.....he doesnt sound too bad to me...

equally there are good and bad tennants, and i would be very upset if a tennant had left my new property in that condition.

some one has to come out and fit the new kitchen unit on top of the cost of buying it, it is your responsibility to cover those costs as you have had use of the house which was not in that condition when you rented it.

skilled or semi skilled labour does not come cheap nowadays and i would be quite happy if i could find a skilled work man for £7 an hour, the best ive been able to arrange was £10 ph plus vat.

sadly the next tennant applying who does have a dog will probably be turned down because of this experience.