not getting £425 deposit back :(

[knoxvillain]

jamesbond, I respect your opinion however I have never said I ever disputed the damage and I am not trying to completely avoid paying for what happened. I do regret it but let me be very clear, the level of damage was VERY small. There was one chew mark at foot level in the kitchen and the rest of the kitchen is in "GOOD" condition according to the Letting Agent's own exit report. None of the damage left in the flat was done intentionally and I am more than prepared to re-emburse the landlord for reasonable costs to get it repairs. £800 for a couple of teeth marks in a bit of chipboard is not a reasonable cost and I think you'll find a judge will agree with me on that. The ARLA guidelines also agree with me on that. The small amount of damage left by the dog does not really take away from any potential tenant's enjoyment of the flat as a whole or of the kitchen.

 

I left the flat knowing that I would probably have to give up some of my deposit to repair some things and I have been more than happy to negotiate in a reasonable manner however sadly my ex-landlord has decided to take it personally and rather than operate within the rules seems to think he is above them and can screw me out of as much money as he can. Unfortunately for him he's picked to do this with someone who's willing to fight him all the way.

 

If he fails to return the portion of my deposit which I believe is reasonably mine or if he fails to summons me to small court, I will summons him.

[knoxvillain]

Found a side panel online at a DIY place, £29.38, lol!!!!

[Nightmare4banks]

I would like to add on:

 

1.If the landlord refused to allow a pet in the property i.e.mainly dog or cat.The contract would probably be deemed unfair.If the tenant had wanted to house his pet crocodile,yes I would agree that that would be be fair on the landlord not to allow the tenant to house the crocodile.By the way this is just an extreme example to show what would/could be classed as fair/unfair.

 

2.In all cases,whether to allow housing a pet or the repair work the reasonability test would ALWAYS apply.As this is what the courts would apply.

 

3.In this particular case,the poster has to pay for the damage done by the dog but a reasonable and sensible amount.In order to work this out - find the costs of materials then add on the labour.It will 100% be much less than this landlord has quoted the poster.

 

So,knoxvillian go for it!

 

All the best!

[knoxvillain]

Thanks Nightmare4banks.

 

The remaining queries I have are:

 

1. I've seen £7.50 being quoted as the hourly rate allowed by the courts, does anyone know where this is stated? I've looked on google and around HRMC's website but can't see anything.

2. He's trying to charge me around £60 for the exit report, but in my opinion this is a landlords responsibility to have carried out as part of the processof leasing. It appears he doesn't normally bother but I don't think this should mean I should have to pay for it. Do you think this is reasonable?

 

Thanks again for your help

[callumsgran]

hi mrshed told me that £7.50 is accepted by the courts only if he has done the work himself, cleaning that is. if he gets in outside contractors then they can charge what they like!

we are facing a problem like this withour previous letting agents who are apparently notorious in bristol for finding faults that dont exist!

Not sure if anyone here has taken them to court yet, maybe we'll be the first!!

also i believe if the landlord wanted an exit report done, he is liable for the cost, good luck!

[knoxvillain]

Hi Cillitbanger.

yes, I saw your thread, thats where I got the £7.50 amount from. unfortunately MrShed didn't say where he got that number from. I did PM him and ask but it doesn't look like he's been on the forums for a while I just want to be able to back it up so when i write to my landlord and say you can only have £7.50 an hour I can tell him exactly why.

 

Good luck with your Landlord problems. I know how you feel!

[callumsgran]

have a look through this knoxy

LandlordZONE Forums - Search Results

[knoxvillain]

"Sorry - no matches. Please try some different terms."

 

what did you search on?

[callumsgran]

Landlordzone it worked when i tried it! sorry

[knoxvillain]

thanks, I had a bit of a look around but I've posted a question about it there to see what they say. Thanks for the link

[Nightmare4banks]

knoxvillian in reply to your questions:

 

1.Do not over worry about being too precise regarding the costings because it is very clear that this landlord is trying to rip you off and let him show it!

He is shooting himself in the foot and let him carry on.

 

2.You should tell him that the costings are excessive and you will challenge them in a court of law should the need arise.

 

Incidently,I have read the acceptable hourly rate is £7.50 but I cannot recall where.If I remember I will post a link on this thread.

 

By the way,who drafted the exit report - the landlord or the agent or both?

 

The answer to this question should hopefully enable me to assist you further.

[knoxvillain]

Hi nightmare4 banks,

 

The exit report was drafted by the letting agent who originally setup the lease between the landlord and myself. however the property was unmanaged so all further dealings until the exit report were directly between myself and the landlord.

[jamesbond]

hi knoxy...i take your point and i appreciate your level of concern about the costs involved..

 

the fact you can buy a replacement piece of chipboard for 30 quid or whatever is not the point...if the unit was an hygiena or whatever make that costs £800 quid to restore to the position it was prior to you taking the lease, then that is your responsiblity to repair to that level.

 

if you feel you could have repaired and amended all this damage to the correct level a lot cheaper it would have been wise to have undertaken this yourself, by walking away and leaving it to the landlord to amend, you are opened up to having the work carried out by any professional body he chooses, and him claiming those reasonable costs back.

 

while i agree that £800 is a lot of money for a unit, as i said previously these new house builders use kitchen fitters on the build who generally supply their own units which are a dissimilar size and finish to what you can buy elsewhere..i.e b&q where you can buy a cupboard for £50..so to replace to the same spec you are dependent upon those suppliers who basically rip you off., i.e two wall cupboards have just cost me £650 to buy because i cannot match them at b&q for a lot less.that is the only reason i have knowledge on kitchen units as i have been ripped knowingly by these people and believe me if i could have got a cheaper unit i would have..my only other options were to have mismatched units or replace the whole kitchen with b&q ones.

 

if it is only the end panel damaged that can be replaced seperately with out large amounts of work, then yes question it and contact the suppliers for verification of the costs involved.

 

we need to clarify exactly what costs the landlord has been subjected to directly, so ask for itemised copies of invoices and you will then be able to ascertain if these are indeed his costs directly or if you have indeed been ripped off, this is most important as it will be what the courts will see and make judgement upon.

 

i clearly see your concerns on this matter as it does amount to alot of money, but unfortunately regarding the kitchen bit if he has a bill to show what replacement costs for that unit is,and he is the only supplier of that unit in the uk, which is sometimes the case, a judge would have little choice but award that cost minus a small amount for wear and tear, which being only 18 months old would not be great if any.

 

if the house was returned in the same state as when you moved in allowing for reasonable wear and tear, and the landlord tried to withold your bond i would say go for it, take him to court.

 

i have a property which i lease out and i suppose you could call me a private landlord, but there are good and bad landlords as there are good and bad tennants. but i am human and have the same problems in life as most others on here, because i am a landlord does not turn me into a super human or an ogre.

i have had furnture stolen , tenants run off owing large arrears, but i have a tennant now who has been with me for three years and to be honest they treat the property as if it were their own and take good care of it, and yes they do have a dog, and it works very well and we have mutual respect for each other , with a property at a very fair rent...at the moment this is fine but its a bit like the princess and the frog...you have to kiss a few before you find the right one.

 

your first priority is to ask the landlord to supply you copies of the itemised bills for the repairs he has had to undertake, this will clarify the position of the costs you have been deemed liable for, if he is reasonable he will supply them, i certainly would.

 

if you still feel you are being ripped off after getting the invoices,and checking their authenticity let him start court proceedings and counterclaim against him and see what the judge decides, this will allow you both to put your cards on the table and substantiate any claims..

 

good luck...007

[knoxvillain]

Hi 007,

 

Thanks for your input. It's always good to here the other side of a story, the landlord's view. Firstly I would like to say that I've rented 3 or 4 properties in the last couple of years and I have always taken good care of them, it's not like I am a wreckless tenant without care for the Landlord's property. I guess I hadn't realised the difference between renting a place that was years old and renting a flat that was 6 months old from build and what my Landlord's expectations. But like I've said several times, I realise that I did some damage (not deliberate in any way!) and I realise I am to be held accountable for those and I should compensate my landlord for it. but I will only do it at a reasonable level.

 

My understanding from the ARLA guidelines is that I can only be charged in proportion to the damage done. As I have said, this damage it minor and does not detract from the overall flat. 9 out of 10 people would walk in and out of the kitch and never notice it. The example given in ARLA guidelines is: say I leave a stain on a mattress. The landlord could have this cleaned for £5-£35. But if he chooses to buy a new one, that's his choice but the cost is apportioned between the landlord and tenant. The tenant still only pays £5-£35 and the Landlord pays the rest otherwise he has ended up with betterment. Even in such circumstances where the item is damaged beyond repair, he cannot charge me 100% of the cost and they do have a calculation for this based on the average lifespan of an item, the wear and tear on it etc etc so say a kitchen unit has a lifespan of 10 years. This kitchen cabinet at the end of my lease was approx 2 years old. He would only be able to charge me 8/10th's of the cost, the other 2/10ths he would have to pay. However, having done a bit of reasearch, I have found at least 2 places willing to provide JUST that panel that was damaged (there is no damage to the plinth, worksurface or door). One place for £30 and another for £47. As you can see neither of these are anywhere near £800. At least on of these suppliers are proper commercial supplies, however both are quoting on the exact part for the kitchen "model" that my landlord has. it's not a cheap replacement from B & Q. I will also add 2 hours labour onto this for my landlord to replace it.

 

It is pretty obvious to me that probably even the supplies my landlord has got the quote from would probably even be able to provide the panel rather than a whole new unit. I strongly suspect my landlord, who seems to have taken the damage quite personally, has decided he doesn't like me standing up for my rights and has expected to be able to work away with my entire deposit. Since I have stood up to him, he's obviously decided to try and scare me off by trying to charge me £662 more and threatening me with court action hoping I will let it drop and he gets 100% of my deposit. This isn't going to happen. In the new year, I intend to contact the company he got his quote from and ask them to quote on just the end panel. When they provide it, I will then be in a strong position to show my landlord is trying to screw me over and it will become evidence in my counter-claim or in my claim should he chicken out of summonsing me.

 

The other thing I find completely unreasonable is that what he is quoted on is a "three drawer pack" however the item damaged was merely a cupboard. I imagine since drawers have more parts that a drawer pack would be more expensive than a cupboard so not only do I find his quote expensive but I also refuse to pay it on the basis of that it is complete inaccurate. The supplier claims to have provided an inspection and the cost is based on that, you would hope a kitchen supplier was good enough to know the difference between a cupboard and a drawer. This whole thing wreaks of my landlord telling them to quote for the most expensive thing however I have no proof of that.

 

Regarding invoices/quotes, despite 1 verbal request and at least 2 written requests, it has taken him 2 months to provide me with a list of damages and the only quote I received was for the above kitchen unit. All other items are merely quoted as multiples of £20. This suggests to me that these are not from actual quotes but just numbers he has plucked out his butt or that he intends to do the work (or not) and charge me £20 an hour.

 

As I have said above, my next letter to him whether he replies to my last one or not, will be a Letter before action inviting him to take action against me so that I may counter-claim him but informing him that if he doesn't claim against me and fails to send me the amount outstanding from my deposit after reasonable deductions for the items mentioned then I will be claiming against him.

 

There are only 2 charges I dispute, the first being the shower seal. There is no mention of damage to this in the typed exit report. Only where he has written it on himself later. I do not recollect any damage to this item so can only assume it was wear and tear if any. The second thing being the £58 for the exit report. As far as I am concerned, this is a business cost to him as part of leasing and should not be done at my cost even if he has decided in the past not to bother getting them done with previous tenants. The rest of the items I acknowledge but am reducing from £20p/h to £7.50p/h and then reducing the kitchen unit from £800 to £50. Reducing my bill from £1038 to £116 meaning he owes me £300 approx.

[knoxvillain]

apparently the hourly rate allowed is £9.25 as per the County Court Act.

[knoxvillain]

This is the letter I intend to send tomorrow. Can you please have a read at it and post thoughts on it? Thanks in advance.

 

Letter before Action

 

Dear Mr xxxxxxx,

 

I write in response to your continued refusal to refund the outstanding balance of my deposit for 21/8 xxxxxxx Street, xxxxxxxx. I note that your position is that you feel you are entitled to withhold my full deposit and wish to pursue me for a further £662.38.

 

I disagree with your assessment and charges. I outline my requirements for each item below:

 

General Cleaning – 4 hours at £20 per hour = £80

 

You have failed to provide any quotations or invoice for this work so I must assume you intend to carry this work out yourself. I find £20 an hour to be excessive and instead will apply the rate recommended in the Department of Constitutional Affairs Guidelines of £9.25 unless you can provide specific justification for the rate of £20. As such, I am willing to pay 4 hours at £9.25 totalling £37.

 

Specialist Cleaning – carpets throughout = £80

 

Again, in the absence of requested quotations/invoices, I assume you wish to carry this work yourself. I will apply £9.25 an hour to this. I can’t, by any stretch of the imagination, see how it could take 2 hours to clean each carpet. I am willing to pay 1 hour at £9.25 an hour for each carpet (livingroom and bedroom), totalling £18.50.

 

Painting/repairs = £60

 

Applying £9.25 an hour, I am willing to pay 3 hours at £9.25 per hour, totalling £27.75.

 

Shower seal = £20

 

There is no mention of this item in the details completed by Letting Solutions nor do I recollect any damage to this item. I therefore reject your charge for this and will not be paying for this item. At the very most, this item will have been subjected to fair wear and tear.

 

 

 

Replacement kitchen cabinet = £798.58

 

Regretfully, I find this charge to be nothing short of ridiculous. I previously provided you with a copy of The Association of Residential Letting Agents guidelines on dealing with damage, deposits and disputes. This included a section dealing with “betterment”. I feel you have made no attempt to repair this damage at a reasonable cost. You are, of course, entitled to replace the cabinet; however the cost of doing so must be apportioned between the Landlord and the Tenant. Given how minor the damage to the unit is, I reject your 100% charge for replacement. I have obtained several quotes from companies who can provide a replacement side panel (instead of the full unit). I have enclosed one such quote for £29.38. Given that you appear to wish to generally carry work yourself, I am also willing to pay 2 hours labour at £9.25 per hour. Total compensation I am willing to pay on this item coming to £47.88.

 

Exit Report from Letting Solutions = £58.75

 

It is my opinion that an exit report is part of the normal process of leasing a property to a tenant and as such should be carried out at the cost of the Landlord regardless of whether you have chosen not to have these carried out with past tenants or not. As such, I reject this charge.

 

Summary

 

It is my calculation that you are entitled to withhold £131.13 from my £435 deposit. I am therefore seeking the return of the remaining £303.87. I therefore invite you to summons me to Small Claims Court as mentioned in your letter dated 19/12/2006. I will, however, be raising a counter-claim, upon receipt of the summons, against you for the above amount.

 

Please note if no summons is received or you do not return the requested amount, I will raise a Sheriff Court Small Claims Action against you. The court can order you to pay the deposit back and the proceedings are very straightforward. You may also be ordered to pay interest on the outstanding amount along with my costs in raising the action against you.

 

I sincerely advise you to comply with my request. From my extensive research, the courts are very sympathetic to tenants whose landlords do not follow good practice guidelines and do not fulfil statutory requirements regarding issues of deposits.

 

I am very disappointed in your lack of communication and your failure to provide quotations and invoice despite numerous requests.

 

Yours Faithfully,

[knoxvillain]

LBA sent by Special Delivery. The game is afoot....

He's got 14 days

[knoxvillain]

LBA showing as delivered

[demon_x_slash]

Oooh, I wish I could have seen his face when he opened it... sorry I didn't reply earlier, the letter looks the absolute model of reason, and that's obviously what the judge will like. £800 for a bit of chipboard, honestly.

On the decorating part - I personally would have allocated him a little more, but I don't know how big your property was; we've got a one bedroom flat, and a fresh coat of paint all over would probably take around three hours - but ours is quite a small flat. I suppose it all depends on how big your place was

Well, you'll hear back from him by the 24th, if you're counting Saturdays.

[knoxvillain]

Me too, I did consider hand delivering it but then I figured it wasn't a good idea. With regards to the decorating, I'm merely using the number of hours he has alocated himself (3) and purely reducing the hourly rate from £20 an hour to £9.25, the only place I changed the hours was for carpet cleaning because the rooms aren't that big and unless you're gonna shampoo the carpet by hand, there is no way it would take 2 hours per carpet.

 

I wasn't couting Saturdays but I intended on giving him 21 days even though the letter says 14 days so I have enough time to see if he does summons me to court.

 

Thing is, he might as well take the £131 pounds I've offered him because if it goes to court I'll be taking him for costs (£39), interest (about £5) and costs of preparing court documents and research (4 hours @£9.25) so if he loses and the judge grants me expenses, he'll end up with next to nothing.

 

If I do end up going to court, I'll probably go see CAB or Shelter and run everything past them and get their advice. They might be able to give me more information or legislation that will help back up my case.

[Cpt Black]

Hi, I've recently had my own problems with my landlord and a few emails have been exchanged over the xmas period. My best advice is stay calm wen writing a letter, stay unemotional and stick to the facts and justify any opinion: let them dig their own grave!

 

I think the LBA quoted above is great, I might use some bits of it in the future! I'd be interested in hearing other thoughts on this, but I'd refrain from using phrases like

Regretfully, I find this charge to be nothing short of ridiculous

instead going for something like

I disagree with your proposed charge and instead suggest the following compensation

Just to 'keep emotion out of it'

Also, if you show that its clearly not getting to you, it winds them up that little bit more which is satisfying!

 

However I think its a minor point and certainly forgivable!

 

Best of luck, I will be watching and waiting - I don't think he has a leg to stand on!

 

Cpt. Black

[knoxvillain]

Hi Cpt Black,

 

I actually totally agree with you with regards to that part of the letter. so much so that I actually removed it from the letter before I sent it to my landlord I just never got round to updating the one I posted.

 

Help yourself to any part of that letter. If it helps you get what is rightfully yours back then great!

 

Also, for whoever is interested, £9.25 is the amount quoted as being the hourly rate a person can use if they choose to file their court papers themselves instead of paying a solicitor to do it. It's not directly in relation to landlords however this means the courts accept this as a reasonable hourly rate so I would challenge any landlord who tries to charge the likes of £20 an hour. They would have to justify the rate they used in court. I decided against asking my landlord to justify his £20 an hour in my LBA and decided to let him keep the rope he's gonna use to hang himself. I can provide links to where £9.25 is stated if anyone requires it to back their letters up.

 

Enclosing a copy of the ARLA guidelines about deposits,damages and dispute and highlighting relevant sections as to where your landlord has failed is helpful. I have done this twice hightlighting the section on "betterment" in my case.

[knoxvillain]

7 days gone, heard nothing so far.

[demon_x_slash]

Probably crying into his beer 'cos he was saving up for a real brain instead of the straw one he's got...

[knoxvillain]

lol