not getting £425 deposit back :(

[Cpt Black]

You gave him 14 days before issuing a court claim, correct? So a week left - he might just leave it to see if you'll follow through with it. Impatient week then!

[knoxvillain]

Yup a week left. Not going to be too impatient to be honest, I full expect this to end up in front of a judge so I'm not expecting to see my money anytime soon. I'm a patient man.

[knoxvillain]

ok so i'm fast approaching the 14 day deadline. needless to say I've still never received the promised Summons from the Landlord. So I am now starting to put together court papers to file and I was wondering if someone could help me/sanity check them for me. Mainly the Particulars of Claim, here's what I've come up with:

 

The claimant, knoxvillain, leased the property at 21/8 xxxxxx Street, xxxxxxxx, West Lothian, xxxx xxx from the defendant, xxxxx Property Developments Ltd, between 4th November 2005 and 17th November 2006. The claimant paid a deposit of £435 to the defendant at the start of the lease.

Upon departure from the property, the deposit was not returned to the claimant. Despite several requests, the defendant has refused to return any of the deposit and has failed to provide adequate documentation accounting for the use of the deposit for repairs. Copies of all correspondance, along with proof of delivery, can be provided.

The claimant admits that there was a small amount of damage to the decor of the property and a small amount of damage to a kitchen unit caused by a puppy chewing on it. The claimant contends that the £435 retained, along with the addition £662.33 requested, by the defendant does not accurately reflect the level of repairs required to restore the property back to its original condition (allowing for 12 months of wear and tear). The claimant calculates that £131.13 will reasonably cover the work required.

The claimant claims a sum equivilent to the remaining amount of deposit after repairs. The sum of £303.87 plus £4.40 in interest along with the costs of bringing this action.

 

thoughts/help on this would be much appreciated.

[Cpt Black]

Hi, have to be brief, have an exam in 30 minutes!

 

Should you number the points like banks one? (Unsure about this one)

 

The costs should be "costs alowed by court" However, when yo send a letter to the landlord with your breakdown (i.e. deposit - what you allow for repairs + interest) you can add on the court costs there if he wants to settle early. Even if you've already sent him a breakdown, make sure you send him a new one, and send one to the court, and inform both that the other party has received one.

 

Anyway, must dash, will look in later

 

CB

[knoxvillain]

thanks, good luck with the exam

 

I was going to attach a breakdown of the money on a seperate page like I did with my bank charges.

[Cpt Black]

Hi, went ok cheers

 

Just noticed your location is Scotland, this may have been addressed earlier in the thread, but short of ready the whole lot again, is there any other difference other than the amount claimable for the Scottish court?

[knoxvillain]

I'm not sure I understand what you are asking?

[Cpt Black]

I'm assuming that as your location is in Scotland, you're filing in a Scottish court (this may have been addressed earlier but can't remember)

 

In a Scottish small claims court there is a much lower limit to the amount claimable, I think its £750 but not sure, so that doesn't matter here. But are there any other differences in the laws of England and Scotland that may apply here? (Sorry, brain a bit fried!)

 

CB

[knoxvillain]

I don't think so, but I am going to go see CAB before I file court papers just to be sure everything is in order.

 

[you're right about the limit tho, it is £750]

[knoxvillain]

Ok, so I FINALLY got a reply from my landbaron. I don't currently have access to webspace to scan and upload it and I can't be bothered typing the whole thing out so I'll summarise :

 

- repeats that I'm responsible for the damage the dog did, despite me never arguing with this or denying it.

- Says I should approach the Letting Agent to get the entry report, he won't be providing it to me.

- repeats that this is the first time he's had to get an exit report done blah blah

- says that if I hadn't left the flat in a state an exit report wouldn't have been needed (I'm still not going to pay for it though)

- encloses an invoice for £160 for cleaning the flat. Fair enough, I'll adjust my figures

- complains that he can't run his business on £9.25, apparently the painting etc was done by his employees and doesn't take into consideration materials. (well I have asked several times for a break down of costs none of which have been forthcoming.)

- kitchen unit - "I'm sorry but this is a specialized kitchen unit and only 15 months old, I am not prepared to let somebody come in with a different unit and not the identical unit, this is why I got the original supplier to do the repair. Sorry but it wasn't my dog that eat the unit" (what he's prepared to do and not do isn't my problem, what I am willing to pay for and not pay for is!)

 

He also basically says that he doesn't accept the ARLA Guidelines nor the quote I provided him with "they mean nothing to me".

 

My question is, firstly should I write back or should I adjust my figures to take into consideration the cleaning cost and just go to court? If I adjust these figures for this do I have to issue a new LBA?

 

Thanks

[Cpt Black]

I think you should just go to court (after checking with CAB) You do not need to supply him with a new LBA, just an updated se of figures with the letter saying you have now filed a claim for the outstanding amount of £xxx. If you think the new cleaning figures are reasonable and justified then agree with them or argue against them.

 

IMHO if he relies on the exit report in court but wont supply you with it before hand (did he refuse to send it to you?) then a judge wont take to kindly. However he has said go to the letting agent so I'm not sure how that fits in.

 

Bear in mind I'm not a trained lawyer!

 

With the unit, I cant see any problem with fixing the unit to the same stndard as before, as long as it looks the same, has the same functionality and the same lifespan as before (dogs excepted! ) And its obviously your perogative to seek out the cheapest price possible.

 

If he can't run his business on £9.25 then justify it with a breakdown of costs other than the cleaning!

 

The necessity of an exit point is an arguable point, really don't know this one I'm afraid.

 

 

How much of this you want to include in the letter informing him of the court claim is up to you and how much you can be bothered to let him get away without a hearing. However, you do have a duty to seek all alternatives before starting a court case, but sometimes you can see it will be fruitless.

 

Last point (your first point) blaming you for something you admitted was your fault (the dog/cabinet issue)

a) stirring up trouble

b) need something to argue about

c) needed to filll up space in the letter

d) just plain stupid

e) all of the above

 

take your pick!

 

Hope this helps

CB

[knoxvillain]

ok here we go:

 

Dear Knoxvillain,

 

Sorry for the delay but your letter arrive the day I went away on a break, so I must apologies for the delay.

 

I must now go through this once again and please read this letter carefully as I think you never read the other one correctly.

 

1. It was you that asked if you could have a dog, at the time I told you yes but YOU would be responsible for any damages it caused. The dog eat the kitchen unit, and I don't think you ever cleaned the kitchen were you obviously kept the dog as its kennel!

2. You can obtain the entry report which was done by YOUR letting agent. They fully checked and inspected this flat before you took entry, and they were very happy with the excellent condition it was in (as with all our flats), so I suggest you contact them for a copy, but I find it strange that you don't have this as they put it in with your lease when you take possession.

3. All the other damages which need repaired were all set out in the exit report that I had to get done when you handed the flat back. Letting [agent] were shocked with the state of the flat, as they inspected it before you took it. I must admit that this is the first time I have ever had to get an exit report done, after a tenant has vacated one of my flats. Letting [agent] agree that all of these repairs/cleaning jobs should be taken care of before another tenant takes possession of my flat. So in short they say you are responsible for the repairs, as you obviously caused all the damages with your dog and lack of respect for my flat which you only rented of my company. As far as you complaint about the charge of an exit report, if you had left the flat in a reasonable condition and not in the state you left it in, then an exit report would not have been needed.

4. I have enclosed a copy of the invoice for the cleaning, from the company which carried out the job. The other jobs which were done by my employees (painting and shower reseal). I sorry but all the internet things you sent mean nothing to me, I cannot run my business charging £9.25 per hour. This rate of £9.25 is a mans wages only, and doesn't take into consideration all the other expenses which are occurred when you employ somebody, or the materials which were used.

5. kitchen unit, I sorry but this is a specialized kitchen and only 15 MONTHS old, I am not prepared to let somebody else come in with a different unit and not the identical unit, this is why I got the original supplier to do the repair. Sorry but it wasn't my dog that eat the unit.

 

Lastly I wouldn't like to think that you are accusing me of not following good practuse, I have got Letting [agent] who would give me a reference as one of the best and fair Landlords which they deal with. Again I would like to add that this is the first time I have had to do an exit report due to the very poor condition YOU left my flat in.

 

Regards

 

Landbaron

 

Bad english and spelling is the Landbarons not mine.

[knoxvillain]

How about this for a reply?

 

Dear Mr LandBaron,

 

Deposit for 21/8 xxxxxxxx Street, xxxxxxx

 

Thank you for your letter dated 16th January 2007. I am delighted to see you are FINALLY providing me with some of the documentation I have requested. I remind you that the deposit is MY money and that YOU legally HAVE TO account for it correctly. To date you have failed to fully comply with this. You say that £9.25 doesn’t cover materials; I have requested, on numerous occasions, a breakdown of the costs of work you (or your employees) have done and you continue to fail to provide it in full.

 

Thank you for sending me a copy of the cleaning invoice. I accept these charges and have amended my figures to reflect this.

 

The big sticking issue is that of the kitchen unit. I’m sorry, there is no way I am willing to pay anything close to £800 to replace the full unit. Regardless of whether you want to accept the information I have previously provided you with or not, £800 does not accurately reflect the level of damage requiring repair. A small chew mark on a piece of chip board. You have chosen to replace the full unit; however you will not be doing so at my cost. I also reject your claim that the unit is specialized and only available from your original supplier; I have been able to find several suppliers who can provide items from the Zeit Maple range. I will be able to demonstrate to the court that the exact side panel is available as a separate item and that there was no requirement at all for you to replace the whole unit. There was no damage to the work surface, door or interior of the unit in question; only the damage shown in the photograph. If you think you can justify replacing the full unit at a cost of £800, as a result of minor damage, to a judge then I invite you once again to raise Small Claims Court action against me for recovery of the cost. I draw your attention to the fact that the quote you provided me with was for a “three drawer pack” despite the fact that the unit in question was a cupboard and not a set of drawers. It is also good practise to obtain multiple quotations so that you are able to demonstrate the independence and reasonableness of the quote.

 

 

 

Given the information provided so far, my amended figures are this:

 

Cleaning - £160

Painting/repairs (in the absence of requested breakdown) - £27.75

Kitchen unit - £47.88

Shower Seal - £0

Exit Report - £0

 

Total Deductions - £235.63

Remaining Deposit - £199.37

 

I regret that there was damage to the property when I vacated it. I have been trying to address my responsibilities for repair while trying to ensure that the costs are reasonable and fair and that, as well as your property being repaired, the outstanding balance of my deposit is returned to me. It is a shame that from the outset you have been difficult and unhelpful about the whole situation. Had you accounted properly for the use of my deposit at my first request, this would have been dealt with quite a while ago. As things stand, I am still trying to squeeze the full set of information out of you. I have ran out of patience. I would have liked to settle this between us in a reasonable manner however you have left me very little option but to commence Small Claims Court action. I would strongly encourage you once again to enter into an meaningful dialogue with me so that we can attempt to settle this ourselves and not have to waste the Court’s time with this issue.

 

As a show of goodwill and a demonstration that I am keen to try and settle this outside of Small Claims Court, I will give you 7 more days to provide the information I have requested along with any outstanding amount of my deposit or to refund the amount shown above. Once court papers are files, I will also be seeking interest and costs which at the moment will be broken down as follows:

 

Court Fee: £39

Research: £27.75 (3 hours @ £9.25)

Postage: £12

Time spent at Post Office: £9.25

Interest: £2.71

 

Bringing my total claim to £290.08 plus lost wages should I have to take time away from work to attend court. Please note, should you fail to take any action at all within the next 7 days, I will start proceedings without any further notice.

 

Yours Faithfully,

 

 

 

 

knoxvillain

[Cpt Black]

Yeah, looks good to me. However, the amount you're claiming (as part of the deposit) has shrunk a little from the £425. Don't back down unless you feel you actually owe the money! I'm unsure of the costs you have incurred. The research and time at the post office may be a bit flimsy but if a judge sees it, let him decide!

 

With the part about good practice just before your ammended figures, I think he has a legal responsibility to get several quotes to make sure he gives you a chance to get the cheapest option. However, if (as he claims) there is only one supplier of the cabinet, he can only get one quote! So if you can prove otherwise then, again, a judge wont take too kindly!

 

Cheers

CB

[knoxvillain]

He provide me with an invoice for £160 for cleaning from a cleaning company. £80 for carpet cleaning, £80 for general cleaning. I'm not sure I can argue with the invoice? The carpet cleaning does seem awful high though. I can see that the livingroom carpet might have needed cleaned to remove some dog hair (although it was vaccuumed twice by me before I moved out) and possibly the dog smell (which I must have grown immune to since I was living there and couldn't smell) but the bedroom carpet shouldn't have been an issue. it too was vaccuumed by me but the dogs were never allowed in the bedroom. Based on that then do you think its reasonable for me to only offer him half of the carpet cleaning cost?

[Cpt Black]

Hmm, not too sure. If you think it seems excessive then you should say so. But if you think its reasonable then pay it. Without a copy of the exit report or photos of when you left its hard to prove that the carpets needed the attention they received. Perhaps write to the letting agent for a copy of the exit report.

 

Anyone elses thoughts?

CB

[Nightmare4banks]

Hi all!

 

Knoxvillian,I have just had another idea regarding your claim which you could potentially take on board:

 

Make your claim unfixed up to £750 to include interest at 8% - Small Claim.

 

This enables you to still get the most back out of the deposit should the landlord defend and without putting in place figures yourself thus reducing the potential amount of deposit to be refunded.

 

The potential double benefits for you are as follows:

 

1.The onus will be on the judge to decide what is fair and proper in your particular case.On your part you have been very reasonable in your dealings with this landlord.Regarding the landlord,I feel he is only starting to wake up at the fact that you are really serious about the claim against him now.

 

2.The landlord may worry that he will be made to pay more than the £425 and thus cough up quicker.This is because the general view is that judges are more understanding towards tenants than landlords.Personally I think each case is treated on its merits.Anyway,this is how you "bluff your opponent" with one objective at face value but your REAL main goal is another i.e. to see that you get your deposit refunded.

 

I hope you find these points useful.

[Cpt Black]

Thats true, I seem to remember somewhere that a judge can lower a preset claim but can't raise it. So leaving it undefined lets you claim potentially more.

 

I think you'd still need to enter the documents etc. above and in a hearing you may be asked to justify these.

 

I think the main benefit will be hurrying up the Landlord, I think a judge may reach the same conclusion as you did assuming the figures are correct

[Nightmare4banks]

Cpt Black,

 

Yes,the documents should be filed but at the end of the day the final decision will be with the judge.

 

Personally,I have done this in the past and I would not think there would be any difference in Scottish Law however I will not comment here as Knoxvillian will have to take note of this as I know nothing at all about Scottish Law/Court Procedures.

[knoxvillain]

Thanks guys, how would I got about specifying that in court papers and especially the particulars of the claim?

[Cpt Black]

Perhaps one of the points should be:

 

I enclose the following documents as evidence:

1) Breakdown of charges from Landlord including relevant invoices.

2) My proposed revision including quotes where necessary.

etc.

 

Not sure what else you mean

 

CB

[Nightmare4banks]

Knoxvillian in reply to your last post:

 

1.Put the following words in your claim form:

 

"This claim is unfixed and up to the value of £750 including interest at the Daily County Court Rate - Small Claim".

 

2.Do as Cpt Black has suggested regarding the list of expenses etc but delete the amount claimed for waiting in the post office and change it to an hour towards your loss of earnings as it maybe perceived as "doubling up" on your part with loss of earnings - just my 2p's worth here!

 

3.Then write as follows:

 

"I will leave the Honourable Court to decide the quantum of the claim including interest upon the inspection of the documents and truth statements

that have been submitted by both parties".

 

4.Do not forget that judges tend to believe that if an ordinary layperson like what we are here on this forum goes to all the bother to make a claim

"with the balance of probabilities" has a genuine case.

 

However this would not apply in the case of

a silly,petty or plain daft claim which of course yours does not fall under any/all of these catergories.

 

5.To be perfectly honest with you the claim could sway either way but I feel that this landlord's costings are too excessive which is the central issue of the whole case.

 

Anyway,I hope you find this information useful.

[knoxvillain]

Are you sure the small claims track allows for undefined amounts?

[Nightmare4banks]

Knoxvillian in reply to your last post:

 

I cannot see why not as I did this with success here in England several years ago and my opponent doubled the offer prior entering the judge's chambers and the agreed amount was endorsed by the judge without a hearing.

I received the money about one month later.However,if you do this you cannot recover your claim fee.

 

 

As I mentioned before I do not have a clue about Scots Law/procedures.

 

However,I have found a few links that should be useful:

 

LINK ONE:

 

http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/sheriff/small_claims/forms/taking_claim_to_court.pdf

 

 

LINK TWO:

 

http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/sheriff/small_claims/forms/what_is_small_claim.pdf

 

There are some examples would should be able to help you out further.

 

Also,having quickly glanced through the site I noticed two important points:

 

1.If your claim is less than £200 you cannot claim back any expenses.

 

2.If your claim is of a value between £200 and the upper ceiling £750,the maximum amount you can claim in expenses is £75.

 

Also,I note that Claimant is called Persuer and Defendant is called Defender.

 

I would also suggest that you contact the court service for some guidance regarding which form to fill in - if it makes any difference after explaining your case i.e. you want the judge to decide how much to award you between £200 and £750 including County Court interest.

 

Anyway,I hope you find this information useful.

[knoxvillain]

Thanks for that! So it seems I should definitely keep my claim above £200. I have to go away this week with work but I'm going to try and put on an appointment with CAB for next Mon or Tue and we'll take it from there.

 

It's a pity the max expenses is £75 especially once you count the £39 court fee. Not a lot of room for getting your money back.