15 year old fined?

[Tally18]

My daughter went to the beach today and used a Saveaway.

 

She went into the shop, asked for a child saveaway, paid and scratched off the date.

 

On the way home she was fined by an inspector because the saveaway she had was a "one zone" ticket (£2.10) and not an all zones ticket (£2.50).

 

She wasn't even aware there was two different types.

 

Can she legally be fined this £20 and what happens if I don't pay it?

 

It was a genuine mistake, not her trying to swindle Merseyrail out of 40p.

[dx100uk]

just to be clear tally

I think you'll find its a penalty fare not a fine.

 

 

dx

[Tally18]

Ooook then, useful!

[firstclassx]

She could actually be prosecuted under Railway Byelaw 18. A Penalty Fare is issued as an alternative to prosecution, in instances such as these.

 

I suspect she got an Area C Saveaway in Liverpool and then decided to pop along to Freshfield/Formby in Area D.

 

The Penalty Fare has been correctly issued. The amount of fare difference is irrelevant really.

 

My advice is to pay the Penalty Fare, of £20, and advise your daughter to ensure she is in possession of a valid ticket and if she is in any doubt as to it's validity, to enquire at a ticket office, all of which, are staffed from first to last train on the Merseyrail network.

 

If the Penalty Fare remains unpaid, it will eventually be cancelled, and potentially and increasingly commonly, a (criminal) court summons issued.

[Tally18]

I'll actually be appealing the penalty. She asked for an "child all zones" and paid £2.50, she gave me the receipt this morning when she got home (details were sketchy last night as sent through bbm and she was staying out for the night) and I've spoken to the shop keeper who remembers her coming in and said he must have given her the wrong one by mistake. My daughter is fully aware she should have the correct ticket (although wasn't actually aware there was even another type of saveaway), she didn't "decide to pop along", the journey was planned from the beginning and she went straight there. Thanks anyway.

[firstclassx]

I'll actually be appealing the penalty. She asked for an "child all zones" and paid £2.50, she gave me the receipt this morning when she got home (details were sketchy last night as sent through bbm and she was staying out for the night) and I've spoken to the shop keeper who remembers her coming in and said he must have given her the wrong one by mistake. My daughter is fully aware she should have the correct ticket (although wasn't actually aware there was even another type of saveaway), she didn't "decide to pop along", the journey was planned from the beginning and she went straight there. Thanks anyway.

 

I can guarantee that you won't win the appeal. It is a simple matter of determining whether a valid ticket was held. Mitigating circumstances etc are dealt with by the Inspector at the time of the incident. In this case, (s)he felt that a Penalty Fare was warranted. All the appeals body, IRCAS, can do, is check that the Penalty Fare was issued according to the rules.

 

She didn't have a valid ticket. It is her responsibility to ensure she travels with the correct ticket.

 

Failing to do so is a criminal offence, even if there is no intention to avoid paying the correct fare.

 

If you bought the day ticket from a newsagent, it is him that you need to complain to, especially if he charged for an All Areas ticket, and gave her a cheaper, 1 Area ticket.

[Tally18]

Taken from Citizens Advice website...

 

It’s not a criminal offence to refuse to pay the penalty fare, but if you don't or if you only offer to pay the original fare and not the penalty fare, you can be taken to a civil court to pay the outstanding amount.

 

If the revenue protection officer thinks that you have been travelling with intent to avoid paying the fare, this is a criminal offence and you might be prosecuted. It's possible to be issued with a penalty fare and then be prosecuted for travelling with intent to avoid paying the fare. However, if you're found guilty, the penalty fare should be refunded.

 

There was no intent, she had a ticket and had actually paid the full amount as the receipt proves.

[honeybee13]

There was no intent, she had a ticket and had actually paid the full amount as the receipt proves.

 

Hello there. I'm a bit confused by this. I thought your daughter had a ticket that only covered one zone of her journey and you're talking about 40p difference?

 

My best, HB

[firstclassx]

Taken from Citizens Advice website...

 

It’s not a criminal offence to refuse to pay the penalty fare, but if you don't or if you only offer to pay the original fare and not the penalty fare, you can be taken to a civil court to pay the outstanding amount.

 

If the revenue protection officer thinks that you have been travelling with intent to avoid paying the fare, this is a criminal offence and you might be prosecuted. It's possible to be issued with a penalty fare and then be prosecuted for travelling with intent to avoid paying the fare. However, if you're found guilty, the penalty fare should be refunded.

 

There was no intent, she had a ticket and had actually paid the full amount as the receipt proves.

 

I think you will find that that "advice" is very, very general and isn't particularly accurate or realistic. Each train company has their own procedures, some vastly different from others. The advice you have been given here is tailored to your specific circumstances.

 

It is certainly a criminal offence. The law states:

 

(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter

any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a

valid ticket entitling him to travel.

 

It is black and white - absolutely no intent is needed. It is still an offence just having an invalid ticket.

 

 

Anyway, you obviously have your own thoughts on the matter - which, as you will find on other threads on this forum, usually end badly.

 

My final comments are that Merseyrail will eventually cancel your Penalty Fare and proceed with more serious actions.

[Tally18]

Because last night I was unaware what she had paid and assumed she had bought a one zone ticket for £2.10. When she come home this morning I got the full story and the receipt that shows she spent £2.50 and was given the wrong ticket by the shopkeeper.

[Stigy]

Taken from Citizens Advice website...

 

It’s not a criminal offence to refuse to pay the penalty fare, but if you don't or if you only offer to pay the original fare and not the penalty fare, you can be taken to a civil court to pay the outstanding amount.

 

If the revenue protection officer thinks that you have been travelling with intent to avoid paying the fare, this is a criminal offence and you might be prosecuted. It's possible to be issued with a penalty fare and then be prosecuted for travelling with intent to avoid paying the fare. However, if you're found guilty, the penalty fare should be refunded.

 

There was no intent, she had a ticket and had actually paid the full amount as the receipt proves.

That's true if they're prosecuting the Penalty Fare itself. They won't do that, and I'm surprised (actually I'm not...), that the CAB offer this info. They theoretically could go to County Court to recover the Penalty Fare amount, but they'd have more success with the Magistrates' Court for the initial unpaid fare amount.

 

In this case, because your daughter is only 15-years of age, if they wanted to prosecute her they'd have to take her to a Youth Court. Unless an extremely persistent fare evader, this will not happen as it wouldn't be in their interest or the public's. Most of the time the Penalty Fare will eventually be forgotten about (though not wiped from IRCAS's system) after a few threatening letters to yourself, as she's not an adult. The morally correct thing to do would be to pay up and put it down to experience, as Penalty Fares are intended for this very thing (not for fare evasion, but honest mistakes....a deterrent if you like). If you appeal, I think you might win, so give it a go for sure! If it's rejected, I'd write to Merseyrail's Customer Services Department, as they might be more understanding. I'm surprised she was Penalty Fare'd as most TOCs instruct their staff to issue an Unpaid Fare Notice or similar in such cases. Worth bearing in mind that until she turns 16, the Train Company has a duty of care for her whilst on their network. Although they'll probably cancel the notice eventually, your daughter was in the wrong here and the notice issued to all intents and purposes, correctly. Simply ignoring it wouldn't be setting a very good example, and it'll be logged indefinitely on her file with IRCAS so if she comes to the attention of staff again, especially when over 18, it'll more than likely be straight off to court as opposed to another Penalty Fare being issued. If it's paid, it'll show as paid and not outstanding/gone to debt recovery, which paints a better picture. If it's cancelled, it'll show as cancelled.

 

Your choice.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Stigy

[Stigy]

I think you will find that that "advice" is very, very general and isn't particularly accurate or realistic. The advice you have been given here is tailored to your specific circumstances.

 

It is certainly a criminal offence. The law states:

 

 

 

Anyway, you obviously have your own thoughts on the matter - which, as you will find on other threads on this forum, usually end badly.

 

It's NOT a criminal offence to not pay the Penalty Fare, which is what CAB is baffling on about. The Penalty Fare is a civil matter. The Byelaw breach is criminal. As you know, Penalty Fares are a civil remedy for a criminal offence. It is resolved once paid, only becoming a criminal matter again when cancelled and proceeded under the 18(1) if ignored or left unpaid.

[Old-CodJA]

Taken from Citizens Advice website...

 

It’s not a criminal offence to refuse to pay the penalty fare, but if you don't or if you only offer to pay the original fare and not the penalty fare, you can be taken to a civil court to pay the outstanding amount.

 

If the revenue protection officer thinks that you have been travelling with intent to avoid paying the fare, this is a criminal offence and you might be prosecuted. It's possible to be issued with a penalty fare and then be prosecuted for travelling with intent to avoid paying the fare. However, if you're found guilty, the penalty fare should be refunded.

 

There was no intent, she had a ticket and had actually paid the full amount as the receipt proves.

 

 

 

Unfortunately Citizens Advice in some areas frequently get this completely wrong and no matter how many times we tell them they do nothing to correct the information on their websites.

 

A Penalty Fare is a civil remedy for something that might otherwise be prosecuted as a strict liability offence, but the authorised person has considered may be dealt with less harshly. A Penalty Fare can only be levied in areas where there is a specific authority to do so.

 

In this case I would appeal directly to IRCAS and send a copy of your letter to the Customer Relations department of the TOC concerned along with a photocopy of your daughter's receipt and a statement from the shopkeeper who sold her the ticket, both of which should also be copied to IRCAS.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Old-CodJA