fight for rights

[fight for rights]

dos any one know about subrogated mortgages and if the banks have to comply with a high court order made against a adviser in lincolnshire.

were a mortgage had to be subrogated to the rights of the bank on a mortgage

Edited April 12, 2013 by ims21
name removed

[honeybee13]

Hello there.

 

Could you tell us a bit more about your story please, so we can decide which forum to move your thread to?

 

My best, HB

[fight for rights]

yes i had a Mr X from dunholme who was at the time in Louth he had taken out mortgages in my name

i won three high court orders number two was that the mortgage on my own property with the bank of Scotland should be subrogated to the rights of the bank over one of Mr X's as Mr X had used money which he had taken from us to pay his own mortgage with the bank

Edited April 13, 2013 by fight for rights
name removed

[citizenB]

I will move this to mortgages forum.

 

It is purely administrative so you will still be able to find your thread as will others

[citizenB]

In answer to your question, High Court judgments are usually precedents and lower courts have to abide by them.

[fight for rights]

I feel that you should have all the facts as it is so important.

in 2004 a mortgage was taken out by Mr X a mortgage broker and financial adviser from Louth in Lincolnshire.

this was with the bank of Scotland t/a Birmingham and Midshire for us.

at the time (not known then) he was not registered to do this work or give advise and had no insurances to do the work.

 

Then in 2005 i need £10.000 to complete a new build

again he did the work but had taken out £60.000 £50.000 of which was placed into his own account from my own.

this was with the GE money and unbeknown to me it was on my other property.

in 2006 he come to my home because he owed money from a investment and we was told that he had placed into our account £20.000

asking for 15 of it back as it was two much which was given.

in 2007 i started to get letters from a firm called Kensington

it turn out that the money was in fact from them or a firm who they had taken over from.

 

I started court action after the police would not do any thing although it turned out they was some other six people

who he had also done the same to. After almost six years fighting in the court he refused to turn up on the last date having had already his own defense turn down by the court as unbelievable at which time he was denied a defense by the court.

 

I got to show to the high court at Cambridge that in fact all the mortgage was done by fraud this encluded the one with B+M as he had put me down as a H.G.V driver( which is good as i had never hold a licence yet alone earn £50.000 per year)

 

the order is as follows

 

1.Juddgment is entered in favour of the Claimant against the Defendant in relation to the first claim of the sum of £75016.56 together with intererest.this sum shall be paid in full by friday 28th September 2012

 

2/ It is declared that the Claimant is entitled to be subrogated to the rights of bank of Scotland under its legal mortgages on

beechwood and or olcote louth lincolnshire.

 

3/ Juddgment is entered in favour of the Claimant against the Defendant in relation to the first claim of the sum of £44723.72 together with intererest. this sum shall be paid in full by friday 28th September 2012

 

Todate no money and can not enforced as everything been put into other names.

also Kensington just had possession of my home as they was not party to the case(the Judge said this is a matter which should be heard at the Chancery which i must take out a court case against Kensington but how.

 

And now B+M are saying the same and will take court action and not remove there charge

 

and that it so i do need your help Thanks

[citizenB]

Righto.. I think I might know someone who might be able to help.. I will send out an S.O.S on your behalf. I am sure they will respond as soon as they can.

[Lea_HTH]

There is undoubtedly a lot of paperwork to look through - and someone will need to read that in order to give accurate advice. I am afraid that it is highly unlikely that anyone with the required level of knowledge will be prepared to do it for free. You'll almost certainly need to instruct a solicitor, or, at the very least, prepare your paperwork and contact a direct access chancery barrister and ask for a written opinion/advice on the merits of your case as it stands today (i.e. against the mortgagees).

[fight for rights]

There is undoubtedly a lot of paperwork to look through - and someone will need to read that in order to give accurate advice. I am afraid that it is highly unlikely that anyone with the required level of knowledge will be prepared to do it for free. You'll almost certainly need to instruct a solicitor, or, at the very least, prepare your paperwork and contact a direct access chancery barrister and ask for a written opinion/advice on the merits of your case as it stands today (i.e. against the mortgagees).

 

Thank you all

Citizen B my Thanks

Lea-HTH I would agree and would do if i had any money left i been fighting for over six years now tryed legal aid with out any luck i would love to get in touch with a chancery barrister like the judge said this case dos need to go there to the Chancery

but then we come back to money yet again so were to turn. Will not just give up got to make sure every one can fight for their rights which we know is right thanks again

[Lea_HTH]

The point of getting an opinion/advice from a chancery barrister is to see whether you have a good prospect of success. If you do, then it may be worthwhile you spending money fighting the case as if you win, your costs will be paid by the other side. If the prospects of success are low, then there'll be no point in going any further as you would just increase not only your own costs, but you would have exposed yourself to paying your opponent's costs too.

 

Lots of people ask barristers for advice on merits of cases before proceeding for this very reason. Yes it will cost you a few hundred pounds, but ultimately it could save you thousands, not to mention months, if not years, of stress and ultimate failure.

 

You should check your insurances, there may be legal insurance attached to it, which might assist you with paying for, at the very least, the initial advice/opinion from a barrister.

[fight for rights]

The point of getting an opinion/advice from a chancery barrister is to see whether you have a good prospect of success. If you do, then it may be worthwhile you spending money fighting the case as if you win, your costs will be paid by the other side. If the prospects of success are low, then there'll be no point in going any further as you would just increase not only your own costs, but you would have exposed yourself to paying your opponent's costs too.

 

Lots of people ask barristers for advice on merits of cases before proceeding for this very reason. Yes it will cost you a few hundred pounds, but ultimately it could save you thousands, not to mention months, if not years, of stress and ultimate failure.

 

 

You should check your insurances, there may be legal insurance attached to it, which might assist you with paying for, at the very least, the initial advice/opinion from a barrister.

 

I understand but that OK up till now it taken every thing I got so i only wish i had a few hundred pounds, thanks any way and i do agree with you as for insurance i was told by him that it was there but it was not

[steampowered]

I should be able to give you a view on this. However I need to get a much better understanding of your post so I hope you don't mind if I fire some questions. I gather that you have been defrauded by a mortgage broker but I don't follow the rest of your post.

 

Who are B+M?

 

I am hopelessly confused about the different properties. Please can you take each property individually one at a time. Please explain what properties there are, who is the registered owner, and what mortgages there are. Most important, what happened with the Beechwood and Olcote properties?

 

There is no such thing as the High Court in Cambridge. A case of this value would normally be dealt with by the High Court which is London, although it is possible that it might be allocated to the County Court in Cambridge. As the Defendant lives in Lincolnshire why was the Cambridge County Court involved at all? Why did proceedings take six years? Was there more than one set of legal proceedings?

[fight for rights]

any questions you got just let me know and i get back right away.

and you gather right we was defrauded by a mortgage broker

 

B+M is the Bank of Scotland T/A Birmingham Midshires who i had our mortgage subrogated to the right of over one of the brokers properties

 

I had one of my own that was number 16 that had to be sold to pay one of the mortgage with GE money.

The other is in my name only because of the Broker doing the paperwork that number 4, which needed the !0.000

in fact it belongs to a family friend.on this is B+M for £80.000 and a Kensington loan for £20.000

 

The Beechwood and Olcote properties

 

Beechwood was his own and because of the police statements we now know that Olcote is in his father name but is in fact his and he been paying the mortgage on this with others money for over 17 years now and that a fact in his father statement also.

 

It was in front of a high court judge siting at the County Court in Cambridge. it was taken to Cambridge County Court by my then solicitors from Peterborough and it was them that keep the case going for so long trying to get X in front of the court Was there more than one set of legal proceedings only the first then a update just before the update was the money

 

I should add that it has come to light that in 2004 he had 285.000 from a widow

Edited April 17, 2013 by fight for rights
new information

[steampowered]

Do I understand correctly that these are the properties involved and what has happened to each of them?

 

- Number 16. This has now been sold and the mortgage paid off, so no longer relevant.

- Number 4. There is a Bank of Scotland mortgage for 80,000 and a secured loan of 20,000 in favour of Kensington. The registered owner is a family friend. I don't understand what interest you have in this property if it is owned by your friend?

- Beechwood. This is the broker's property. There is a mortgage in favour of Bank of Scotland. You have a High Court order subrogating you to the position of Bank of Scotland.

- Olcote. This property is in the name of the broker's father. However you believe that it is held for the broker and that the broker has been paying the mortgage.

 

What did you mean in your first post when you said Bank of Scotland will take court action? What court action against who?

 

Please search the individual insolvency register and let me know if the broker is on it: http://www.insolvencydirect.bis.gov.uk/eiir/. Can you also tell me if you know where the broker lives.

[fight for rights]

Yes I had my own and i helped to build my friend home which was put into my name in 06 by X

-My Own Number 16. had to be sold to pay GE Money which he had put on it and that paid in full

 

- Number 4. There is a Bank of Scotland mortgage for 80,000 and a secured loan of 20,000 in favour of Kensington. Because of X I alone am the registered owner of my friend house.

 

- Beechwood. is or was the broker's property. There is or was a mortgage in favour of Bank of Scotland.

yes I have a High Court order subrogating to the position of Bank of Scotland.

- Olcote. This property is in the name of the broker's father. However you believe that it is held for the broker and that the broker has been paying the mortgage as the police statements from doth show.

 

What did you mean in your first post when you said Bank of Scotland will take court action? What court action against who Beechwood as they had given him £675.000 when in fact the place was sold for £285.000?

 

He was at one time under the FSA under is birth name but they had him removed i can tell you that much

 

with a new wife in a new home at Dunholme lincoln

[fight for rights]

and looking at the site you give he has not

[steampowered]

OK, here are my thoughts. It sounds like you want to enforce the judgment you already have.

 

The simplest method of enforcement would be to send HCEO bailiffs round to his place. You should be able to find HCEOs on google, e.g. the Sheriffs Office (n.b. I've never used these guys I just mention them as an example). There will be some costs but they should not be too high. I doubt you will get the full judgment by doing this but may get something.

 

Another easy method of enforcement would be to serve a statutory demand and then apply for a bankruptcy petition. If made bankrupt the Official Receiver would take over this assets and distribute them to creditors. Please review the Insolvency Service guide to making someone bankrupt which you can find on google. If you can't afford a solicitor you can do this yourself with help from the internet. There will be up front costs of something like 800 for the court fee and deposit towards the Official Receiver's costs of administering the bankruptcy. It sounds like this guy is not already bankrupt so hopefully he has some assets, but I doubt you will get anything near the full amount if he owes money to other people that were defrauded.

 

Another option is to apply for an order that he attends court to give information about his assets. If he refuses to attend court then you apply for a committal order. In theory refusal to co-operate with the order to provide information could result in imprisonment but in practice it is difficult to enforce if he does not co-operate. I would use a solicitor for this one.

 

Subrogation is a concept where someone who discharges the debt of another person, can get the benefit of security given to a third party for that same debt. However I believe that Bank of Scotland has first rights - you come second, you only get to use BoS' charge once BoS has been paid. If there is more money outstanding on the mortgage than the property is worth, then I am sorry to say that your subrogation is probably worthless. I would at least contact BoS (their litigation team perhaps?) to try and establish how much of the charge has been paid to see what your position is.

 

Another option would be try and claim a charging order over Olcote. This would rely on proving that the broker is the true owner of the property and that the father's ownership is a sham. This is quite a high threshold to meet, though I note you have the police statements. You would definitely need a solicitor for this.

 

The final option is to try and trace the money. When you are defrauded out of money, you can follow that money and claim property rights over things bought using it. For example, if I defrauded you out of 100k and used that to buy a yacht, and I then ran away and moved to China, you could claim the yacht. Accordingly if you can prove that your money was used towards the properties in Olcote or Dunholme, then you could claim ownership over those properties according to the proportion of your money that was used. Tracing the money is very difficult without access to his bank statements. Realistically the banks would want a court order before they give his bank statements to you. You would start the process by getting a court order against the bank into which you paid money and go from there. This is the most powerful method of enforcement but also a complicated and expensive process for which you would need a specialist solicitor.

[fight for rights]

steampowered my thanks for your help

the debts on the property is total 90 to Bank 10 to kensington the propertys value is 250.

and i can show he used some of the money on his fathers and the rest on his own with the same back

in fact i know he as assets but always in others names he just got a new car top Audi estate with his own plate on MJS.

 

that car is in fact in his girlfriends name as his her own new car deb.

it like his father house

 

when at court it was made clear why the Subrogation because he had done the same before to other and that was the one way i would recover some of the debt to remove the mortgage to him.

 

what got to be ask is why take court action in the first place.

again my most sincere thanks to you for your help

[steampowered]

Alright, lets get him. If you can find any assets in his name (e.g. a house) then go for a charging order. I believe the Land Registry can run searches for the properties owned by a given person (though I don't think you can do it online due to privacy concerns I'm not sure what they require to do it). You can check the current legal ownership of any of the properties mentioned in your post by getting a copy of the title register online, it costs £1 per property.

 

I would be tempted to immediately serve a statutory demand then go for bankruptcy. You will benefit greatly from having the Official Receiver sort out this mess. When he gets made bankrupt, explain your concerns to the Official Receiver. The Official Receiver should take control over his bank accounts and investigate what has happened to his assets. If he has simply given stuff to his family or sold it at an undervalue the Official Receiver can order that those transactions are unwound. However, you should move quickly because there are statutory time limits on how far back you can go to unwind such transactions.

 

The big advantage of going for bankruptcy is that the OR will be doing this for you rather than paying a fraud solicitor £300 an hour to do it. The disadvantage is that the OR might not do his job properly because they can be overburdened and lack the expertise of a true fraud lawyer, and also any assets received this way would probably be shared with his other creditors. You will also need to come up with about £800 for the court fee and deposit (though you can hopefully get this back from the OR). Going for bankruptcy is better than doing nothing.

 

If you can prove that your money, specifically your money, was used to acquire a particular asset, then you can assert a right of ownership over that asset. This would be achieved by bringing a claim against the person who currently owns the asset (friend, family whatever) for a declaration that the asset belongs to you and must be transferred to you. The current owner can defend against your claim by proving that they bought the asset for full value without knowledge of your claim, but I doubt his family will be able to prove this defence. The real difficulty is proof, once your money starts getting mixed with other creditor's money and his own money in a bank account things get complicated and you need to rely on legal presumptions about whose money is used for what ... hence the need to get hold of his bank accounts through a disclosure order against his bank.

 

I would go to see a specialist fraud or asset recovery solicitor. Most general high street solicitors will be out of their depth. Given the amounts in question hopefully you could agree some sort of conditional fee agreement or damages based agreement where the sol only gets paid if successful. It may be difficult to get someone to take this one unless you already have pretty good proof but worth a go I think.

 

If you want to go for bankruptcy I can help you with the forms, but not with the asset tracing as this is not really feasible through an internet forum.

[fight for rights]

you have been a god send i dont know how to thank you or for that matter how to thank you enough.

 

i already looking at the sheriffs office and yes i have some bank accounts of his already along with his mate who a solicitor were in three month some two lots of 27000 went in to his personal account from him.

 

i know were is cars and motorbike are along with some hidden things which i don't know what at his father address is a big barn were one car is

 

thanks again i let you know if and when some thing gos right the bank is now after my home which is my friends house in my name

[Lea_HTH]

As suggested, here and on another forum, you NEED legal assistance because the intricacies of your issues are undoubtedly within your paperwork and the court judgments and not simply in your understanding of them and re-interpretation of them in an online forum. That alone may already have led to you receiving incorrect advice in this thread.

 

By all means choose what advice you want to follow - but it could be a costly mistake.

[steampowered]

You know his bank accounts? And they might still have money in? If so, go straight for a third party debt order.

 

Complete form N349 and send to the court which issued the judgment. Attach a witness statement (using a proper template) briefly explaining that the order is unpaid, how you know about the accounts and that you believe there is money in them. Attach a copy of the court order to the witness statement.

 

This is done without notice - you do not inform the debtor. If the N349 is accepted an interim TPDO will be granted. You then serve that TPDO on the bank at their registered office - contact the bank in advance and find out exactly what department it should be sent to, to avoid delays. This freezes the account. You then file a certificate of service at court. There will then be a hearing which he gets to attend, which will decide whether the TPDO should be made final and the money paid to you, and you need to file a witness statement with court and serve on debtor before the hearing. Please review http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part72#IDADVP2B.

 

Do it at the same time or before sending in bailiffs, to reduce the risk he will move money out. You cannot get a TPDO against a joint account with his girlfriend/wife.

 

Cars/bikes at his father's place a bit more complicated, wait and see what the HCEOs come up with. Remember that HCEOs charge a fee and do not always get results, make sure you know what you will be expected to pay before overcommitting.

 

Obviously I am assuming that everything you have said in this thread is accurate and complete, and haven't reviewed your paperwork. People can often misunderstand things or block out important facts when they are emotionally involved with a dispute so be careful of that. Whenever you start court proceedings (TPDO or otherwise) there is a risk you will have to pay the other side's legal costs if your application is denied or you fail to comply with the proper procedures. Do bear this in mind.