Announcement: ESA claimants now have the option of having their WCA recorded

[nolegion]

Many thanks to those who kindly tracked down the link below for me. It's to a report by Atos to the DWP about the audio recording of medicals, which has only just been published.

 

Although the report was finalised in June 2011, the DWP has been refusing to divulge it, despite repeated Freedom of Information requests aimed at getting them to admit what's going on in the light of the Harrington report's recommendation on the issue.

 

There's a lot of detail and, frankly, naivety in it, as well as, in my view, some material evasion, but I am very glad to see the role of internet discussion in bringing pressure to bear is squarely acknowledged by Atos.

 

E.g.:-

 

"As a result of the publicity surrounding the Harrington recommendations, the Government’s acceptance of these recommendations and an increase in activity on welfare rights blogs relating to recording, there has been a significant increase in requests from customers to undertake recordings."

 

Let's keep it up!

 

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/wca-recording-pilot-report.pdf

[nolegion]

A survey of those who chose to have their medicals recorded last year asked claimants to rate the HCPs behaviour towards them under headings such as:-

 

- explaining how the assessment would be carried out

- giving enough time to describe symptoms\difficulties

- courtesy\politeness

- unhurried manner

 

and the report linked in the post above concludes:

 

" …the performance during the trial period was considered to be at least as good as normal, and in most measures much better ...

… being recorded had a positive effect on the behaviour of the health care professional."

 

Ridiculously, however, the report was finalised less than 4 weeks after the 6 week trial period ended, and contains no evaluation of how the actual decisions\reconsiderations\appeals were or were not affected by the fact that the assessments were better conducted.

[honeybee13]

Hi nolegion, this is interesting stuff. I have to say I can't really follow the flowchart . I can't believe it needs to be that complicated.

 

As you say, let's keep up the pressure and well done to you.

 

My best, HB

[dpick]

This may be of interest I have attended three ATOS medical assessments with three people who have been on income support or incapacity benefit due to mental problems, the first two were not recorded and the result to my disgust 0 points awarded. The third was recorded by my just switching my phone onto voice record as we entered the room. No objection was raised but then the person doing the assessment could see that I was recording and any objection would have been recorded, that assessment gained 15 points. Both the failed medicals when appealed gained more than 15 points.

 

It is my impression that ATOS medicals do not take any notice of mental issues just physical issues. IE can they walk unaided can they wash with aid etc, not do they have to be told to wash etc. All three of these people had held jobs in protected environment but these positions had been closed due to cutbacks. When they lost there jobs it seems all support for them disappeared and they had no welfare support until they contacted the voluntary support group that I am a member of.

 

I should state that these are my own views and I am not a support professional in any way.

 

dpick

[nolegion]

Thanks, HB, and I think that is indeed an interesting account, dpick.: both because of the HCP who didn't make the objection the WCA handbook (still) dictates, and because of the better outcome from the recorded assessment.

 

All accounts I have heard or read to date indicate that a claimant will be better off in many ways if they elect to have a recording.

 

As regards the pilot\trial last year, Grayling told parliament that less than half of those asked whether they wanted their assessment recorded said they did. I'm sorry, but now the shoddy little report on the matter is available, one has to conclude that, in so saying, Grayling was 'a stranger to the truth' (to use the permitted parliamentary circumlocution).

 

Of the 500 asked on the telephone when their assessments were booked, 344 (68.8%) said they did. Of these, 25 later changed their minds but that still leaves 319 (63.8%) who wanted it done.

 

To 'spin' the numbers, the DWP subtracted from the count those whose assessment didn't actually proceed as first scheduled e.g. because the claimant concerned couldn't make it to the assessment centre on the day, and even instances where the claimant did turn up but Atos still couldn’t actually provide a 'recording HCP' – or when there was 'equipment failure'! Staggering, and totally misleading.

 

It is quite clear that when it comes to dealing with Atos most people darned well want evidence of how they treated.

Edited April 29, 2012 by nolegion

[osdset]

One claimants recent experience with trying to get an assessment recorded http://jaynelinney.wordpress.com/2012/04/30/a-day-in-my-life-when-dealing-with-atos/

[worried33]

Ok they have added notes and sent off a request for me to get recorded and told me they will let me know if they need to move the appointment so thats done, my issue now is I cant get approval for a taxi, in the past they approved me fine.

[nolegion]

Seems to me the last two posts sum up the current position. Yes, you can require a recording of your medical simply by a phone call, in principle (good, worried33); but the eloquent testimony brought to this thread by odset shows what may happen in practice.

 

The advice must remain to note and to confirm by recorded delivery letter, every step of the way, until this disgraceful situation is sorted out.

 

Initial fears that they really don't have enough equipment at present to handle demand are being proved true, it would appear. But is that the whole of the story?

 

" Acceptability of compulsory recording on HCPs

 

…it was accepted that not all HCPs would be able to accept the change and it could lead to increased stress in the workplace… "

 

That's from the Atos report linked earlier, and somehow my heart fails to bleed.

[nolegion]

In the audio recording trial or 'pilot' last year, Atos used hand-held digital recorders. However they decided, according to the report on the trial now made public, that this presented a security risk for any national roll-out.

 

So they are now using this 'desk-top' model:-

 

http://www.neal.co.uk/products/9102.htm

 

The trouble is they have got over 140 medical assessment centres but presently only ELEVEN such recorders.

 

See this FoI response to campaigner Paul Smith:-

 

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/audio_recording_devices#incoming-278446

 

From which:-

 

"…a request for the recording of a Work Capability Assessment must be made in advance by contacting the Atos Healthcare Contact Centre. This is so that Atos Healthcare can make an appointment when the necessary equipment and consenting HCP is available.

 

Requests for recording of assessments can only be agreed with the

* prior consent of the Healthcare Professional (HCP),

* use of approved recording equipment.

 

These criteria must be in place so as to ensure that stringent safeguards are in place to produce recordings that are complete, accurate and that the facility provides for simultaneous duplicate copies to be made available to both the claimant and the HCP."

 

If the same percentage of people who wanted their assessments recorded during the trial (64%) insisted on it now, the entire system would grind to a halt.

Edited May 2, 2012 by nolegion

[reallymadwoman]

 

If the same percentage of people who wanted their assessments recorded during the trial (64%) insisted on it now, the entire system would grind to a halt. [/font]

 

So how about a national campaign to get everyone to ask for their assessment to be recorded, at least for IB/ESA migrators since they're unlikely to be any worse off whilst waiting however many months it would then take to have their medical?

 

If even 10% of IB claimants asked for their medical to be recorded, that's around 1100 per week (ATOS are supposed to be doing 11,000 a week now) which, by coincidence, is 100 times the number of recording devices available. We could be in for a long wait.

[osdset]

So how about a national campaign to get everyone to ask for their assessment to be recorded, at least for IB/ESA migrators since they're unlikely to be any worse off whilst waiting however many months it would then take to have their medical?

 

If even 10% of IB claimants asked for their medical to be recorded, that's around 1100 per week (ATOS are supposed to be doing 11,000 a week now) which, by coincidence, is 100 times the number of recording devices available. We could be in for a long wait.

 

A long wait indeed, and just how many will wait? Faced with months on the assessment rate I'm willing to bet a good many will opt out of the recording just to get the claim moving.

[reallymadwoman]

This is why I suggested IB/ESA migration claimants only, since they would be on whatever benefit rate they were before, not the assessment rate.

[Crazy Diamond]

Reading nolegion's post in particular re employment tribunals put me in mind of a case many years ago (well before mobile phones and digital recorders). Someone was making a claim for Constructive dismissal and won the case by covertly recording the boss kicking off.

 

I won a case of constructive unfair dismissal, and part of the evidence was a threatening recorded message left on the answering machine by the boss. Made a transcript of it, entered into evidence with the option for the tribunal to hear the tape if they so wished or if the other party wanted to dispute the accuracy of the transcript.

[nolegion]

Good call, if I may say so, CrazyD.

 

As this situation slowly edges its way toward, let us hope, some glimmer of improvement, I think people need all the encouragement of successful examples they can get.

 

The key concept as regards admissibility of recorded evidence is relevance to facts in dispute.

[worried33]

This is why I suggested IB/ESA migration claimants only, since they would be on whatever benefit rate they were before, not the assessment rate.

 

I am ringing up again tommorow since I only have little time now till my medical and I have had no correspondence since my phone call.

[worried33]

well I rang up again, nothing was actually arranged. But it seems they have had to cancel my appointment anyway for my taxi as I need to get a letter of my GP to authorise it, so they going to rebook it after I get my taxi letter faxed and a date when they can record, although I am worried I will be in trouble for it been rearranged but they insist its fine.

[nolegion]

Atos only listened to 46 of the 230 WCAs recorded during the trial\pilot, last year.

 

"There were a couple of cases early in the pilot w[h]ere LiMA approximations were used that did not fully explain the situation but this would not have changed the outcome...", they say.

 

Yeah, right. The leave it to tribunals to do that.

[nolegion]

"Claimants should make their requests for recording their Work Capability Assessment (WCA) by contacting the Atos Healthcare Contact Centre. This is so that Atos can make an appointment when the necessary equipment available. The claimant should also state in their completed medical questionnaire (ESA50) that they want a recording made of their WCA.

 

In order to accommodate the request within a reasonable timescale a customer may be asked to attend a Medical Assessment Centre (MAC) that is not the nearest MAC to their home address.

 

Customers would not be expected to travel to a MAC where this involves a one way journey of more than 90 minutes."

 

FoI response of 11 05 12, here:-

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/wca_audio_recordings_3#comment-28002

[keefyboy]

very interesting indeed, thanks for posting this up

 

Now the question, I never knew that you can claim Travel Allowance to go to a MAC. Can anyone tell me under what criteria you have to meet to claim this? is a NHS HC1 certificate enough or is there other bits you have to get?

 

KB

[worried33]

Just to let you know I was heading for a 3+ month delay, and I have a further complication that my GP has gone on the sick and the temp who seen me wouldnt do the letter for the taxi.

 

However I did a complaint about a load of other stuff within the DWP and a local manager has me under care and attention and she ended up chasing ATOS who had a cancellation so now I am looking at end of june although no fixed date set yet.

[nolegion]

Goodness gracious, worried33. They really do seem to be making any absolutely meal of your case. Thanks for keeping us up to date in any event. There are a lot of people trying to learn about how the new recording scheme is actually working – or not – in practice. Best of luck.

[nolegion]

From a couple of recent FoI Act responses by the DWP:-

 

"The implementation of the revised audio recording methods was introduced in August 2011, with the first request being received on 30 August and the recording was undertaken in November 2011."

 

(http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/110371/response/283730/attach/2/IR244.pdf)

 

11 May 2012 " [The] DWP are currently in discussions with Atos Healthcare about the best methods of communicating to claimants the options available for the recording of WCAs." (linked earlier)

 

You could get the impression some people are just 'taking the whatsit.'

[worried33]

in the 6 week s or so period I have had since requesting recorded ATOS have booked me 4 normal medicals.

 

3 were cancelled imemdiatly when I reminded them I wanted a recorded however the 4th one the guy said he wont cancel it because apparently they been booked auto by the system and he is waiting for them to fix it then he will cancel nearer the date, he also said there was no record of me asking for recorded strange eh?

 

It seems as if they trying to catch me out on a missed medical appointment.

[Guest amianne]

I have just spent the best part of 10 mins reading this entire story.

 

To say the least I get the impression that this company ATOS are acting much like MI5 agents

 

Since when has it been required that their staff working as agents for the DWP should have the right to consent to having an assessment recorded? I have never heard such a load of rubbish as this in being asked if they would permit themselves to be recorded.

 

My uncle is a police officer based in the Met. He is never asked if he has any objection to a recording being made in one of the many weekly interviews he carries out. What would happen if he was to say that he objected to it?

[osdset]

My uncle is a police officer based in the Met. He is never asked if he has any objection to a recording being made in one of the many weekly interviews he carries out. What would happen if he was to say that he objected to it?

 

The police are subject to the Police and Criminal Evidence Act (PACE) and recordings are a legal requirement under the act.

 

Whilst claimants obviously have the right to a recording I don't think legislation is in place to force ATOS employees to consent.