Announcement: ESA claimants now have the option of having their WCA recorded

[reallymadwoman]

Excellent plan, Simon, if I may say so.

 

Nevertheless, I respectfully suggest you include some further 'contingency options' a.k.a 'Plan B', just to be 'on the safe side'.

 

1. When the next DWATO communication tells you that you have got to attend a medical examination centre 60 miles away rather than the one on your doorstep, because that is where one of the last of the 11 original 'approved recording devices' still working is reputedly to be found, you smile and agree.

 

2. The day before the rescheduled and relocated appointment you expend what is left of your budget of time, patience, health and tea-money for that day, or week, on the telephone trying to ascertain whether or not the 120 mile round trip would be a further, total, miserable, painful, waste of time and money.

 

3.When your efforts are met with a further cancellation and further rescheduling, you smile and agree, and ask to be sent confirmation.

 

4. Repeat 2 & 3 for several months.

 

5. Keep a) smiling and b) this thread posted.

 

NB. Please remember to leave instructions to your executors that they should inform of us of the final outcome, in case you should achieve an 'undeniable descriptor-score' by expiring before you are properly treated in accordance with the policy announced to Parliament last February. In this event, we will send flowers rather than tea-money. Can't say fairer than that.

 

On such a serious subject which has had, is having and no doubt will continue to have such an adverse effect on so many people, how wonderful to have a post which is accurate, helpful and funny. Thank you.

[Dilizjo]

Ditto:D

[Simon7685]

I fully expect that you're probably 100% right nolegion and they will mess me around. However I will see it through and even attend by medium if necessary:madgrin:.

 

I have been through so much garbage with my DLA claims that them messing me around is nothing more than I expect. After the so called doctors assessment I had with DLA renewal 1, I honestly believe that the best way forward with this whole system is to try and make things difficult for them in return and securing a recording can I think only be beneficial to the claimant. I have been dreading this day when the ATOS assessment was ordered for ESA migration, not because I have anything to hide but because it is all so one sided in favour of the DWP. I am in one respect luck though, as I am a migration at least there is no assessment rate for me to be put on while this part of the proceedings is ongoing (unless someone hasn't told me something), so I continue to receive the level of benefit I have been on, which includes the disability premium. I feel lucky in that respect as I know thousands of people only have the basic money and it's hard enough to manage as it is.

 

With their messing me about in mind and asking me to travel the length and breadth of the county to attend, from a financial point of view, I am keeping £100 out of my DLA to cover expenses for travel, which has been built up over a few months. If they make me go somewhere, only to not have the necessary equipment, I will refuse to go to another one until they have covered my expenses claim for the first one. I do not believe that is unreasonable to expect. I'm sure they will but I will test the resolve with the DWP and if needs be the media. I can be very stubborn when I have to and have been known to, "chop my own nose off, to spite my face" as the old expression goes.

 

You can rest assured the only possible way I would not see this through would be if a letter dropped through the door, telling me they had put me through without the medical. For the sake of my sanity I would have to concede defeat then, be it support group or WRAG. I have fought a lot of battles in the last 6 years including one for life and I aint giving up this time without a fight.

 

With that in mind I have even started to think about what I would do in the event of being refused ESA and then losing an appeal. I understand that my option then would have to be JSA. I would quite simply say to them, OK you find me jobs that I am physically capable of doing, I will gladly apply. Lets see how many prospective employers would employ me when they see my medical problems and all the drugs I take. Together with advising any prospective employer the amount of time I would likely be off due to ill health. There may be one but somehow I doubt it.

 

Which reminds me, if I ended up on JSA which would be IB, I believe I would still have the same amount of money as I get now unless I have read it wrong???? I currently receive IS (couple rate both over 25) and the disability premium payable due to DLA. So unless they used a ESA decision to disallow my DLA (that was renewed this month for 2 years) I should get the same?? Am I correct does anyone know?

[RaeUK]

... Finally, are we not in the same 'boat' that when ESA first came out up to March 2011, it was made clear in a letter that came with the ESA50 that evidence in support of the claim must not be sent in with the ESA50 ...

 

amianne, as I said in the other thread when you mentioned this, that information is wrong. This is my fourth year on ESA. My ESA50 in 2009 clearly asked for medical evidence to be included. As did my ESA50 in 2010. I'm still waiting for my 2011 ESA50 ...

[Guest amianne]

amianne, as I said in the other thread when you mentioned this, that information is wrong. This is my fourth year on ESA. My ESA50 in 2009 clearly asked for medical evidence to be included. As did my ESA50 in 2010. I'm still waiting for my 2011 ESA50 ...

 

I'm talking about the letter that came with the ESA50 from ATOS - the QR1/10/08 letter. It clearly stated that you were NOT to send in any evidence back with the ESA50.

 

I've got it here

 

dated 2/11/09 from ATOS Croydon

 

"Please only return the enclosed form ESA50 ESA QUESTIONAIRE to the address at the top of this letter........Do not enclose them (evidence) with form ESA50"

 

This was the problem. Some people obeyed the instruction to the letter and some just went ahead and ignored it.

Obviously without any evidence , those that obeyed the instruction were prejudiced.

[nolegion]

As regards post # 200, this thread, many thanks for kind words expressed. Appreciated, truly. Simon, in particular: please keep going and posting. Exemplary.

[nolegion]

Is it just me, or does it seem that whenever someone asks for a recorded appointment, their appointment gets cancelled due to lack of equipment?

 

I have a dictaphone. If I get to the stage where I'm sent for a medical, I am tempted to record using that.

 

This seems to me an entirely reasonable, practical, response to DWATO's behaviour

 

And would it not surely save a great deal of time, money and angst for all concerned?

 

However, as I am sure many now know, the snag is that not only will DWATO refuse to allow this 'overtly', it will also halt a 'medical' if you are discovered doing it covertly, and then stop\refuse payment of any benefit on the purported grounds that the claimant has refused to submit to a medical examination.

 

In my genuine view, it is DWATO not the claimant who is behaving illegally in such circumstances,

 

But there 'tis.

[Nystagmite]

Many of us also have good reason (other than we think the HCP is lying) to want our medicals recorded. Ideally, I need my GP appointments recorded. I can speak to the GP, walk out and not remember what we just discussed.

[reallymadwoman]

Me too.

 

In my case it is so long standing and well known that my kids used to pull the 'but you said yes last night ...' trick until I learnt to write everything down.

 

In which case I think some claimants will have grounds for a disability discrimination claim if they withdraw recording facilities.

[nolegion]

Interesting further posts.

 

1. Please, genuinely, don’t let me 'get going', here, about recording doctors 'at large'. I can bore for England on the subject which wouldn't help this important thread stay focused.

 

The germane point, in a nutshell, is that you CAN insist on making a 'private recording' of appointments with clinicians consulted within the NHS. They may not like it, but both the GMC and the BMA have admitted that a patient should not be refused this option.

 

So why not with 'HCPs'?

 

2. As regards discrimination against, as it were, the almost-by-definition-disadvantaged, this very recent article might be of interest:-.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/jun/29/judicial-review-work-capability-assessment

Edited July 1, 2012 by nolegion

[Simon7685]

This is the main body of the letter I am writing to post off to the DWP hopefully tomorrow. My powers of letter writing are not what they were before, normally I would have expected to knock this out in an hour but I have been working on this on and off since Friday Any opinions or suggestions gratefully received.

 

Employment Support Allowance

 

I am currently going through the process of being migrated from Income Support on grounds of Incapacity to Employment Support Allowance. I completed and returned the ESA 50 to ATOS Healthcare on 6 June 2012. They attempted to contact me by telephone on 26 June, a call I was unable to take. This was then followed by receipt of a letter requiring me to attend a medical assessment on 11 July 2012.

 

I have today (29 June 2012) telephoned ATOS Healthcare to advise them that I wish to have my assessment recorded and be supplied with a copy of the recording and I am writing to advise you of this. I would also like to draw to your attention that had I not been made aware of my entitlement to have this recording made from an outside source, I would not have known about it. There is no mention of this in any of the literature I have received from either yourselves or ATOS Healthcare, which I believe is wrong and feel the DWP and ATOS need to address this.

 

I have been advised by ATOS that as a result of my request the appointment for 11 July has been cancelled and a new appointment will be issued when the equipment is available to facilitate the recording. In order to avoid any confusion and as a matter of courtesy I wanted to advise you of this. In the meantime I understand my payments of Income Support will continue as normal.

 

I also wanted to bring to your attention the reason I have asked for this to be carried out. In 2009 I had a home visit for a medical by an ATOS doctor in connection with my DLA renewal. At the time I had expected a factual report to be made by the doctor. However this was not the case and the report that was made contained a number of errors and less than factual information and assumptions (which in accordance with their training manual seems very much an ATOS code of practice). This resulted in my DLA not being renewed.

Having already been to appeal tribunal for the first award of DLA, I again went to appeal tribunal following this refusal. I was able to demonstrate at the tribunal that the doctors report was inaccurate to say the least and this in connection with being able to show that I did suffer the health problems stated, resulted in my appeal being allowed and DLA awarded for a further 3 years. Despite this result the presence of a recording of the medical assessment at the tribunal would have further enhanced my case and provided the absolute proof of what had taken place.

 

This award has since been renewed again from 04 June 2012 for a further 2 years, this time from the information in the renewal application and report from my doctors. I had fully expected and was prepared to have to go to appeal tribunal once more but was pleased that on this occasion it was not necessary.

So as a result of my previous dealings with ATOS I do not feel I can attend this assessment without the safeguard of having it recorded. At least this way I will have evidence of what is said, should it be needed for any appeal that may be necessary in the future and of course it is a safeguard for both myself and the ATOS member of staff. As the claimant I know I have nothing to either fear or hide from having any assessment recorded, in fact I believe there is a very strong case for every assessment to be both audio and video recorded.

Moving on from stating my reasons for requesting the assessment to be recorded, there are some additional clarifications I would like to seek from the DWP as follows.

When I completed the ESA 50 it asked for any dates when I would not be available for any assessment. I have also confirmed this today with ATOS. Depending on my health we will be taking my daughter away for 2 weeks hopefully commencing around 23 July. I trust that this is acceptable and that any new appointment will be arranged outside these dates and my payments of benefit unaffected?

Whilst going away entails a lot of prior planning and organization, with the help of others it is possible in the modern world and most people are able to cater for the needs of the less able without difficulty.

I have been advised (and also read) that if ESA is not awarded following an assessment, it is not uncommon for people to find that their payments stop before they ever receive any notification. With this in mind if my assessment was able to take place before 23 July and as a result I was not awarded ESA, would I find myself in a position of being away from home and the first I know of the decision would be no benefit being paid into my bank account? Or is there a provision for benefit to remain in payment for a set period following a decision not to award ESA? As things stand I am due a payment on 23 July and then again on 06 August, would any ESA decision be liable to affect these payments?

 

During the research for having my assessment recorded, I have spoken to other claimants of ESA, who have requested a recording and when they have arrived ATOS have informed them that the equipment is either broken or unavailable. I would like to know where a claimant stands if this is the case? It is my belief that if it is within your rights to have the assessment recorded, then if ATOS cannot facilitate it a claimant must be within their rights to refuse to go ahead with the assessment without fear of any sanction brought against their benefit entitlement as a result.

I look forward to hearing from you in due course regarding the questions I have raised.

Edited July 1, 2012 by Simon7685
Corrections

[Simon7685]

Sorry about the way it has pasted accross, I will try and edit it to make it look right.

[nolegion]

Simon. All the points and questions you have raised concerning recording in your letter seem perfectly fair and reasonable to me, even though the chances of your ever getting a proper and detailed response (or any) are probably not that good. The accepted wisdom seems to be that if you send to Atos, copy to DWP, and vice-versa - and recorded delivery in both cases, if you can.

 

(I sent an original 'sealed' Court Order to the DWP on behalf of a relative not long ago, with some fairly urgent queries. They vigorously denied receipt, recorded delivery notwithstanding. Three weeks later, they sent back the original document – which was what I had required, after they had 'noted' it – without any covering letter or apology, let alone any response to my queries.)

 

Time for bed

[Simon7685]

I know there's not much chance of any reply, let alone a detailed one. At least I will have done my bit and they can like it or lump it. Hopefully they will realise that I am not just going to lie down and accept them "riding rough shod over me". I'm not sure whether to antagonize ATOS by sending a copy of this one, or just send them a confirmation of the request for the recording, what do you think?

[Simon7685]

This is a copy of the letter I am going to send ATOS today, a copy of which will be included with the letter to the DWP detailed in post 211, once again thoughts on this appreciated and hope it pastes accross ok without me then needing to edit it:madgrin:

 

Dear Sir/Madam

Medical Assessment Wednesday 11 July 2012 - 2.45PM at Scarborough Medical Examination Centre

On 28 June 2012 I received a letter advising me of the above appointment having been booked for me, relating to my migration from Income Support to Employment Support Allowance.

On 29 June 2012 I telephoned you at 10.25 AM to advise you that I wished to have the assessment audio recorded. I chose this option after having found out from external sources that it was my entitlement to have a recording made.

Following a period on hold, I was advised that the assessment detailed above would need to be changed and that you would contact me in the future to advise of a date and time when the equipment necessary was available to facilitate the recording.

I have written to the DWP to advise them of this under separate cover and am writing to you today as a matter of courtesy to confirm the details discussed at the time.

At the time of the call, I also confirmed the dates I would not be available for any assessment due to taking my daughter away on a family holiday. This will of course be dependent on my health allowing the trip to take place, the dates we have proposed and therefore the dates I am not available are, Saturday 21 July to Tuesday 07 August 2012.

If you have not already done so, I would request on receipt of this letter that you confirm the cancellation of the appointment of 11 July 2012, in order that I have a record for my personal file relating to my dealings with you. I am happy to accept either posted or emailed confirmation, my addresses are at the top of this letter for your reference.

I would also draw your attention to the fact that when you send out documentation to clients detailing the need for them to attend one of these assessments, at no point in any of the documentation do you advise clients of their right to have the assessment recorded. It is my understanding having researched the matter that this service has been a right of the client for over 4 months and yet you are not advising them accordingly.

I believe that both yourselves and the DWP have an obligation to make sure people are advised of their rights when attending these assessments and to not do so is not entirely acceptable. I as a claimant and customer have nothing to hide or fear from the recording of any assessment and feel it appropriate to ask if ATOS are of the same belief? If you are, then why are you not advising people of their rights but leaving them to find out by other means which I have had to do?

I would also like to advise you in order that the matter is entirely clear, that should I attend for an assessment and there is no means of recording it, I will refuse to have it carried out and I have advised the DWP of the same. I appreciate that you may perceive this as my being obstructive towards you but having had prior experience and dealings with ATOS, I feel that the only way to ensure total transparency and protect both myself and the Health Care Professional is to have a recording made. That way there can be no doubt as to what was said by whom and when.

I trust this matter will receive your prompt attention and I look forward to receiving confirmation of the assessment of 11 July being cancelled and wait to hear from you regarding the availability of a recorded assessment at a later date.

Yours faithfully

Edited July 2, 2012 by Simon7685
didn't copy accross correctly!!!

[honeybee13]

Good letter.

 

HB

[nolegion]

Indeed, HB. Not half bad.

 

Looking at today's date, I might add we can now very definitely say the 'new arrangements' are supposed to have been in operation for over half a year.

 

An FoI question got it out of the DWP in January of this year, after which Grayling acknowledged the scheme to Parliament (at the beginning of February 2012) - when he also said that this had been in operation since 'late last year.'

 

In a subsequent FoI response, the DWP has now said that the first WCA recorded under the new arrangements actually took place some time last November, at the request of a claimant made in August 2011.

 

I stress these dates not so much, I trust, out of officious, clip -board pedantry, as in a wish to emphasise how absurd it is that after all this time the DWP are still not telling claimants of their right to opt for a recording when they require ESA questionnaires to be sent in.

[Guest amianne]

after all this time the DWP are still not telling claimants of their right to opt for a recording when they require ESA questionnaires to be sent in. [/font]

 

As this has not as yet found it's way into the regulations or indeed the Decision Makers Handbook, there is no new right to a recorded assessment. At the moment until it is decided whether it is viable to allow it to continue,, depending on the numbers that have had a recorded assessment, it is an option. You do have the right to have the assessment recorded in accordance with the conditions already laid down - the overall cost of the recording to be bourne by the claimant.

 

What is the point in re-printing the ESA50 or printing 100's of thousands of leaflets if by Christmas 2012 the government decides to revoke the option on the grounds of lack of interest?

 

Much the same as you have the option to complete the on-line version of the ESA50 or the one sent by post to you, or the option to ask for the assessment to be carried out at home or indeed the option as to whether you decide if you want to send any supporting evidence to the DWP or ATOS prior to the assessment.

[Dilizjo]

Excellent letter Simon:) I would be very interested in the reply.......

[ee-bee]

brilliant letter simon,x

[Simon7685]

Both letters were fired off yesterday, DWP letter also included a copy of the letter sent to ATOS. Both sent via Recorded Delivery. First time I have used Recorded since the price increases. £3.10 to post 2 envelopes containing between them 6 sheets of A4 paper!!!!

 

Wonder if I can claim it back as expenses when it gets to tribunal:madgrin:

I will update when I know they have been received............

Or when my money doesn't go into the bank next Monday because I've p'd them off!

[nolegion]

Good stuff.

 

Now, if I've got this straight, in summary so far, this thread has contributors:-

 

worried33

reallymadwoman

Dilizjo

Simon7685

 

all facing WCAs as yet unperformed, because they want a recording; and all are encountering significant delay\uncertainty\'rescheduling' - or even purported refusal of the option. And all are taking the trouble to share their experiences on an ongoing basis. Invaluable, in my opinion.

 

Sincerely hope I haven't left out of account any protagonist to date, here – please correct - (rainbo and H 's predicament duly noted at #109 this thread) and that all and any existing or further viewers will feel confident to pool any similar experiences. You would clearly be in good company.

 

Also, as has been requested earlier, reports of any WCAs actually being properly recorded at claimant's option, would be very useful, I think

 

As a footnote, I would, in addition, be particularly grateful if in due course anyone could post the full and exact text of any purported 'agreement' claimants are now made to sign before they can get a recording. I am familiar with the wording that was used in 'the pilot' – but what is being produced now? (I thought the last one was disgraceful, and more than likely, unenforceable, tripe.)

[reallymadwoman]

 

As a footnote, I would, in addition, be particularly grateful if in due course anyone could post the full and exact text of any purported 'agreement' claimants are now made to sign before they can get a recording. I am familiar with the wording that was used in 'the pilot' – but what is being produced now? (I thought the last one was disgraceful, and more than likely, unenforceable, tripe.)

 

Do you have a copy of the wording from the pilot, just out of interest? No one has yet mentioned me signing anything.

[Simon7685]

Just checked PO track and trace, so much for 1st class.........

both letters confirmed posted and still working their way through the Royal Mail system, see what they tomorrow brings.

[Slatted]

I think you will find that the Post Office no longer guarantee first class post will be delivered next day...and I know Recorded Delivery is not guaranteed either, other than it will be signed for within 28 days......I have had to use Special Delivery to get speed guaranteed....very costly....

 

Sign of the times again?