Announcement: ESA claimants now have the option of having their WCA recorded

[Nystagmite]

Anybody that says that they can't walk yet manage to walk two steps at the assessment centre is going to lose!

 

They'd still qualify for DLA HRM. You don't need to be unable to walk at all to claim.

[worried33]

What was in your medical evidence you supplied?

It should describe your walking ability - distance, gait, speed and any symptoms that arose after walking. A GP's report saying that you find walking difficult is of no use.

 

Anybody that says that they can't walk yet manage to walk two steps at the assessment centre is going to lose!

 

Generally the measured distance in an assessment centre is 20 metres (waiting room to assessment room) Walk that, and tell them that you can manage only 15 metres is on a one way ticket - out!

 

Most people I know state about 27 metres which is well below the minimum required and greater than they can normally assess you doing.

 

As the 200 metres is just their opinion all you have to do is disprove it by having another walking assessment, say with the OT department at your local hospital.

 

Anybody and everybody is going to tell the assessor that they can't walk. It is not for the assessor to prove that you can - all they have to do is create doubt. As the claimant it is your responsibility to prove what you say on the claim from is the case and back it up. Provide cold hard reports from specialised medics or OT's. A half baked report that doesn't have much substance from your GP is a waste of time.

 

A recorded assessment in your case would serve no purpose. You say you can't walk, they say they think you can. It is medical evidence that is needed not a CD of what you said!

 

Actually if evidence is supplied to an assessoe ir is their duty to give a reason to put that aside. Which is why we have things like doctored reports because they dont need to put evidence aside if it simply isnt on record.

 

I wasnt in an assessment centre, in addition the criteria isnt not walking at all, it isnt even just walking distances, diffilculty in doing the walking should be assessed as well.

 

Anybody and everybody is going to tell the assessor that they can't walk.

 

You discredited yourself saying that, its a comment suggesting that people will simply lie to claim benefits. ATOS and the DWP should work on the assumption people are telling the truth. For your information my evidence did state distance and was from multiple professionals. You made assumptions and it didnt work.

 

The fact is I have medical evidence backing me up, someone making things up isnt medical evidence. 200 metres is quite a distance, how one can translate 2 footsteps albeit also havng to hold onto something as well to been able to comfirtably walk 200metres I would like to know (other than lieing of course).

Edited June 29, 2012 by worried33

[Simon7685]

I have recently started my migration from IS to ESA and I have to be honest it has frightened the life out of me after what I have read on this and other forums. I have been on IS on grounds of disabiltiy since 2006. In 2006 I also claimed DLA and was refused, stupidly I did not appeal as I could not face it. In 2007 I reapplied and was turned down, this time I appealed and got an award of high rate mobility and low rate care for 2 years.

 

In 2008 my renewal was refused, again I appealed and was awarded it for 3 years. During this process I had the ATOS home visit which was ultimately flawed and full of lies. I so wish I had been able to have a recording of that, nevertheless as I said I won the appeal anyway. My DLA was due for renewal on 4th June this year and I received the dreaded ESA 50 in May as well. I held off sending back the DLA renewal as I was terrified they may disallow it again and stop any further payments due before June. Amazingly I returned the form at the end of May, it was received on 31st May. They applied to my Dr for a report and I received notification on 19 June that they had awarded me DLA at the same rates for 2 years until 2014.

 

Regarding ESA I returned the form on 6th June (deadline was 11/06). On 26 June they telephoned me and I was unable to take the call so they left a message asking me to call them. I didn't want to as I knew it was relating to the dreaded assessment. Anyway I received an appointment letter yesterday for an assessment on 11 July. After reading this thread, I decided that having my assessment recorded was the way forward for me, especially given the previous ATOS experience. I telephoned them today and advised them that I wanted to have it recorded, I was asked to hold. After an age they came back on the line and apologised for the delay but they were speaking to the decision maker at DWP. I then got told that my assessment date had to be cancelled, which he then corrected to changed and they would contact me when a date was available.

 

So it is back to the waiting game for me again. In the meantime I am writing to the decision maker, out of courtesy to advise what has gone on today. I am also going to explain my exact reasons for asking for the assessment to be recorded. I am also asking why there is no documentation advising people they are entitled to have their assessments recorded, if I hadn't found this thread I would never have known.

[Guest amianne]

They'd still qualify for DLA HRM. You don't need to be unable to walk at all to claim.

 

The point I was making is that you have to be very careful what you put on the claim form.

 

If you say that you can't walk but manage 2 steps, it puts into doubt the integrity of your statements. The facts stated have to be bourne out by reality.

If you say that you can only walk 15 metres, yet manage to walk the pre-measured distance from the waiting room to the assessment room, which is normally 20 metres, once again doubt will arise as to the truth in what you have claimed.

[Guest amianne]

Actually if evidence is supplied to an assessoe ir is their duty to give a reason to put that aside. Which is why we have things like doctored reports because they dont need to put evidence aside if it simply isnt on record.

 

I wasnt in an assessment centre, in addition the criteria isnt not walking at all, it isnt even just walking distances, diffilculty in doing the walking should be assessed as well.

 

 

 

You discredited yourself saying that, its a comment suggesting that people will simply lie to claim benefits. ATOS and the DWP should work on the assumption people are telling the truth. For your information my evidence did state distance and was from multiple professionals. You made assumptions and it didnt work.

 

The fact is I have medical evidence backing me up, someone making things up isnt medical evidence. 200 metres is quite a distance, how one can translate 2 footsteps albeit also havng to hold onto something as well to been able to comfirtably walk 200metres I would like to know (other than lieing of course).

 

The ATOS assessor does have to justify any decision that he/she makes if it is contrary to other evidence supplied or verbal comments made by the claimant.

If the assessor considers the evidence you have supplied is irrelevant, then they can ignore it.

If it is relevant, then they have to give a reason why they don't accept it.

 

The assessor does NOT have to justify any decision he makes if there is no relevant evidence or where comments made by the claimant are also considered irrelevant and off topic.

More often than not most evidence submitted is irrelevant.

 

ATOS do not make any of the decisions they just provide evidence for the DWP. It is the DWP that will weigh up the relevance of any evidence before coming to a decision.

 

As regards to the paragraph, if ATOS or the DWP were just to believe what was put on the ESA50, then everybody would pass with flying colours!! Who would lie to claim a benefit? Not me, not you probably, but many 1,000's will and do!

[Nystagmite]

The point I was making is that you have to be very careful what you put on the claim form.

 

If you say that you can't walk but manage 2 steps, it puts into doubt the integrity of your statements. The facts stated have to be bourne out by reality.

If you say that you can only walk 15 metres, yet manage to walk the pre-measured distance from the waiting room to the assessment room, which is normally 20 metres, once again doubt will arise as to the truth in what you have claimed.

 

You are meant to write down what you're like before any pain sets in.

[worried33]

The ATOS assessor does have to justify any decision that he/she makes if it is contrary to other evidence supplied or verbal comments made by the claimant.

If the assessor considers the evidence you have supplied is irrelevant, then they can ignore it.

If it is relevant, then they have to give a reason why they don't accept it.

 

The assessor does NOT have to justify any decision he makes if there is no relevant evidence or where comments made by the claimant are also considered irrelevant and off topic.

More often than not most evidence submitted is irrelevant.

 

ATOS do not make any of the decisions they just provide evidence for the DWP. It is the DWP that will weigh up the relevance of any evidence before coming to a decision.

 

As regards to the paragraph, if ATOS or the DWP were just to believe what was put on the ESA50, then everybody would pass with flying colours!! Who would lie to claim a benefit? Not me, not you probably, but many 1,000's will and do!

 

The ATOS assessor doesnt make the decision but its simply a formality of rubber stamping it. I expect the occurances of a decision maker going against a ATOS assessor report is extremely low, as I have never heard of a single occurance.

 

I think evidence submitted which is directly tied to the qualifying conditions is very relevant, what I see with you here is you making excluses for whats happening, you first stated I only supplied a vague worded GP letter justifying your belief the assessor has done nothing wrong, then when I told you that your assumption was wrong you have then declared the evidence I did supply is simply irrelevant, its very relevant since the basis of the the report used against me was stating I could walk comfortably 200 metres. This is in direct contradiction to medical evidence provided by myself verbally and professionals verifying it. I already know there is no mention of the evidence I supplied on the report as was confirmed to me, anyone in that situation would have to lat least mention the evidence even if they considered it irrelevant.

 

You are probably right in that the assessor doesnt have to justify themselves, however that doesnt make it right, thats something thats wrong in the system that the DWP seemingly gives them immunity. Someone has even done a FOI request asking the DWP what happens when an assessor has been found putting false information on reports proven by a recording.

 

question

 

do you work for or have any affiliation with ATOS?

[Guest amianne]

You are meant to write down what you're like before any pain sets in.

 

Are you sure about that? I thought that you had to not only do that but explain in detail why you get the pain, where it is and what happens after.

[Guest amianne]

The ATOS assessor doesnt make the decision but its simply a formality of rubber stamping it. I expect the occurances of a decision maker going against a ATOS assessor report is extremely low, as I have never heard of a single occurance.

 

I think evidence submitted which is directly tied to the qualifying conditions is very relevant, what I see with you here is you making excluses for whats happening, you first stated I only supplied a vague worded GP letter justifying your belief the assessor has done nothing wrong, then when I told you that your assumption was wrong you have then declared the evidence I did supply is simply irrelevant, its very relevant since the basis of the the report used against me was stating I could walk comfortably 200 metres. This is in direct contradiction to medical evidence provided by myself verbally and professionals verifying it. I already know there is no mention of the evidence I supplied on the report as was confirmed to me, anyone in that situation would have to lat least mention the evidence even if they considered it irrelevant.

 

You are probably right in that the assessor doesnt have to justify themselves, however that doesnt make it right, thats something thats wrong in the system that the DWP seemingly gives them immunity. Someone has even done a FOI request asking the DWP what happens when an assessor has been found putting false information on reports proven by a recording.

 

question

 

do you work for or have any affiliation with ATOS?

 

The answer is no, I don't.

[dpick]

You are meant to write down what you're like before any pain sets in.

 

I find this very much wrong as I myself cannot even stand without pain. Also I found that I feel that who ever set the questionnaire up was trying to trap people with the same question repeated in a slightly different way on further pages in the end I started putting see question nn.

 

Bye the way I am in receipt of full rate mobility and middle rate care component DLA etc and have done so for the last 12 years.

 

dpick

[reallymadwoman]

We seem to have moved a long way from the original point of this thread.

[Dilizjo]

We seem to have moved a long way from the original point of this thread.

 

Indeed we have...... which in my opinion is a shame

[nolegion]

After reading this thread, I decided that having my assessment recorded was the way forward for me, especially given the previous ATOS experience. I telephoned them today and advised them that I wanted to have it recorded, I was asked to hold. After an age they came back on the line and apologised for the delay but they were speaking to the decision maker at DWP. I then got told that my assessment date had to be cancelled, which he then corrected to changed and they would contact me when a date was available.

 

So it is back to the waiting game for me again. In the meantime I am writing to the decision maker, out of courtesy to advise what has gone on today. I am also going to explain my exact reasons for asking for the assessment to be recorded. I am also asking why there is no documentation advising people they are entitled to have their assessments recorded, if I hadn't found this thread I would never have known.

 

I found this an encouraging post from Simon7685. The best results from the current mess certainly seem to stem from those who assert their right to a recorded assessment as soon as they reasonably can in advance, don't back down, and then confirm what they are told both to the DWP and its subcontractor in writing. In the light of what parliament has been told and the DWP has been obliged to confirm in response to FoI requests, the DWP really has 'nowhere else to go' at the moment, it appears.

 

If the organisation of this matter is being severely hampered by, amongst other things, the fact that claimants are STILL (7 months into the scheme) not being told of their rights before they return their questionnaire (resulting in claimants' requirements being announced relatively late in the process, as in Simon's case) the DWP has no-one but itself to blame.

[reallymadwoman]

We're back on track - excellent.

 

Whilst I have seen many threads/posts where people have asked for their assessment to be recorded, I have yet to see a single one where a recording has actually taken place.

 

It would be helpful to have some idea of how long the wait is actually likely to be, how the technical process works and how the claimant felt afterwards.

 

Any takers?

[Simon7685]

I agree it would be interesting to find out about other people who have requested a recording.

I will post the letter I am sending on here hopefully tomorrow, I did not quite manage to get it finished today despite my best efforts. It will be interesting to know peoples opinions of it.

 

Aside from this I have tonight learnt of at least one person who has told me that they requested a recording, only to turn up to be told the equipment was broken and would they mind going ahead without it! How convenient for ATOS.

 

This has got me thinking and I will have to try and find out...........

If having your assessment recorded is a right, then surely you are within your rights to refuse to go ahead if you get there and there is no equipment, or it is not working. If they say you will be penalised, then that has to amount to an infringement of your rights?

[nolegion]

In my view, that is entirely right, Simon.

 

“Atos Healthcare will offer to undertake the recording of a Work Capability Assessment (WCA) where a claimant enquires about recording their WCA. The process for the claimant will be to contact the Atos Healthcare Contact Centre to make a request for a recording to be made of the WCA. Atos will then timetable an appointment so as to ensure the necessary equipment and suitably trained staff are available for the appointment. Atos Healthcare will respond to all requests.”

 

“..if a claimant is unable to attend their WCA because Atos Healthcare are unable to comply with the request the postponement will not be attributed to the claimant.”

 

Response to FoI request 14 06 12. DWP ref VTR 3013-1090

( http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/wca_audio_recordings_2#comment-28778 )

 

Nobody should be bullied into agreeing to attend […] an unrecorded WCA which they have clear evidence they have required to be recorded in advance.

 

(Text in italics is from a post of 28 06 12 at 'atosvictimsgroup' by Jim Otram quoting an FoI response obtained by John Newman at WDTK. I would of course prefer to provide a full link rather than acknowledge sources, but the last time I tried to do this the link to first-named site gave some viewers' browsers here a few problems. If anybody wants to give it a try, refer post # 164 this thread.)

 

In any event the FoI response link included above is the most important bit.

[reallymadwoman]

I think that the problem is that where the claimant has had to travel, often in quite a lot of discomfort, quite a long distance and their companion has had to take time off work then the thought of having to do it all again when the recording equipment is available is just too much and they give up. Remember also that this probably won't be the first appointment they've been given either so it may by now be months since they filled in their form.

[speedfreek]

(Text in italics is from a post of 28 06 12 at 'atosvictimsgroup' by Jim Otram quoting an FoI response obtained by John Newman at WDTK. I would of course prefer to provide a full link rather than acknowledge sources, but the last time I tried to do this the link to first-named site gave some viewers' browsers here a few problems. If anybody wants to give it a try, refer post # 164 this thread.)

 

mhtml:{AB8F01F8-FD18-4A7C-A021-043D4D38FE6D}mid://00000002/!x-usc:http://atosvictimsgroup.co.uk/2012/06/04/atos-wca-audio-recording-pilot-study-report/

 

The link has extra encoding information on the front end see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MHTML for details as it's nowt sinister!

 

I have a similar issue if I pull links direct from google search. Google always prefixes it's links with it's referal information so although the link says CAGForum it's encoded google.32872685/fkjfhks.dflsfdgip/sdlkff.....ad_nausium

 

You just need to pull the http:// bit so izzy wizzy let's get busy

 

http://atosvictimsgroup.co.uk/2012/06/04/atos-wca-audio-recording-pilot-study-report/

 

Tra daaaaaa!

 

Oh one of the 1st recordings (pre-pilot) was done by I think user cit_k over on moneysavingexpert and also reported that site we can not mention. Not sure if they were a member here?

 

****Addendum***** I'm 99% sure but a search on their user name.... it does not find that thread unless I'm doing something wrong which I probably am?

 

From memory it took ages to get them to agree, he had to sign a pretty strict data use (lack of it) form and still failed te WCA!

[nolegion]

Many thanks for providing a proper link to that site and topic. speedfreek. It provides quite a bit of commentary as well as an easy route to the pilot study report.

 

In connection with which, I am sure that what RMW has just mentioned about people giving up their entitlement to a recorded assessment because, although they have required one, they are told when they get to the MEC that there isn't the kit\staff after all, is entirely right.

 

And the labour invested in getting to the MEC is made all the worse because the claimant concerned will probably have had to travel to a MEC further away than their closest , on account of the scarcity of recording facilities in the first place.

 

If, say, using speedfreek's link above, you scroll down to 3.1 of the pilot study report, you will find that allegedly 25 of the 344 claimants who wanted a recording 'withdrew' from the trial at the MEC. Yeah, right. I believe that they were on time and wanted a recorded assessment but they were told that it couldn’t be organised for them after all - so they would either have to wait an unreasonable amount of time or go away and wait for another appointment. So, very understandably, they gave in.

 

From what I am reading (inc. worried33's accounts here), the tactic seems to be to spend a wearisome amount of time on the telephone very shortly before the appointment day, seeking confirmation that when you arrive, say the next day, recording will indeed be available. If you persist, the chances are you will then get you get a postponed appointment - because had you turned up no recording would have been possible.

[Nystagmite]

Is it just me, or does it seem that whenever someone asks for a recorded appointment, their appointment gets cancelled due to lack of equipment?

 

I have a dictaphone. If I get to the stage where I'm sent for a medical, I am tempted to record using that.

[Guest amianne]

I found this an encouraging post from Simon7685. The best results from the current mess certainly seem to stem from those who assert their right to a recorded assessment as soon as they reasonably can in advance, don't back down, and then confirm what they are told both to the DWP and its subcontractor in writing. In the light of what parliament has been told and the DWP has been obliged to confirm in response to FoI requests, the DWP really has 'nowhere else to go' at the moment, it appears.

 

If the organisation of this matter is being severely hampered by, amongst other things, the fact that claimants are STILL (7 months into the scheme) not being told of their rights before they return their questionnaire (resulting in claimants' requirements being announced relatively late in the process, as in Simon's case) the DWP has no-one but itself to blame.

 

Am I right in saying that there are no rules or regulations that dictate that a recorded assessment must be carried out without cost, if the claimant requires it?

 

All I seem to hear is that a statement was issued. Where are these regulations that people can use to demonstrate their entitlement?

 

Finally, are we not in the same 'boat' that when ESA first came out up to March 2011, it was made clear in a letter that came with the ESA50 that evidence in support of the claim must not be sent in with the ESA50. We had some people ignoring that letter whilst others complied with it. Is it not true that those that complied ended up with less of a chance of a successful outcome than those that ignored the letter and went against the request?

 

From what I can see, there is no legal requirement for ATOS to provide these recorded assessments. Once again the same seems to be happening - a 2 tier system. Those that don't ask for or have a recorded assessment - in line with the regulations will have a much worse outcome than those that do.

 

As I have already said, I suspect that the government will review the need for them in the light of the percentage number that have had them carried out against the total assessments.

 

Like what happened in March 2011, the government will at some future date either decide that recorded assessments are a waste of time and money and that very few have them vcarried out, or go the whole hog and revise the ESA50 to make it clear that they are availabe to everyone.

 

Until that time we are in the middle of a 'pilot' scheme.

 

Are recorded assessments a good thing? Some say no, citing cost, time wastage, and not being able to retract something that was said by the claimant. Some say yes - a much fairer and transparent system. But we cannot have both going on at the same time with those having a recorded assessment 'appearing' to have a better outcome over those that don't.

 

It should be all assessments are recorded or none at all.

[osdset]

If I had my way the recordings would be both audio and video, legislation should be brought in to enable tribunal judges to sanction both ATOS and the HCP in the event that there were blatant disregards for clear evidence of LCFW, a number of judges have commented on the absolute absurdity of some cases where the appellant was clearly unfit for work and the HCP chose to turn a blind eye.

 

If ATOS have nothing to hide they have nothing to fear from recordings, in fact it impacts far more on the claimant, plenty of claimants have distressingly embarrassing conditions, that I'm sure they would rather keep between themselves and their GP. However if having the WCA recorded and shown at appeal affords justice, they may well decide that it's worth it.

[reallymadwoman]

If I had my way the recordings would be both audio and video, legislation should be brought in to enable tribunal judges to sanction both ATOS and the HCP in the event that there were blatant disregards for clear evidence of LCFW, a number of judges have commented on the absolute absurdity of some cases where the appellant was clearly unfit for work and the HCP chose to turn a blind eye.

 

If ATOS have nothing to hide they have nothing to fear from recordings, in fact it impacts far more on the claimant, plenty of claimants have distressingly embarrassing conditions, that I'm sure they would rather keep between themselves and their GP. However if having the WCA recorded and shown at appeal affords justice, they may well decide that it's worth it.

 

Hear hear!

 

I absolutely detest the sound of my voice on audio recordings and I usually cringe at photos, never mind video, but there is no way on this earth I am having an assessment unless it's recorded. Ideally, that will be done officially, but if not it will be covertly. And yes, I will cringe if the recording ever has to be played to a tribunal because I do have an extremely embarrassing condition, but it will definitely be worth it.

[Simon7685]

OK.......

Here is the deal, my WCA is within my home town, actually less than 1/4 of a mile from my address. ATOS have allegedly cancelled the appt for 11 July following my request for the recording. When they issue a new date,

1. I will contact them to make sure the equipment is going to be there.

2. I will attend the appt.

3. If on arriving they say either they don't have the equipment or it is faulty or any other excuse, I WILL refuse to go ahead with the WCA.

4. I will ask for written confirmation on the day that the reason the WCA was not carried out was as a result of whatever their excuse is.

5. I will report back on here what goes on.

finally

6. If DWP stop my money as a result of this I will post my bank details on here and you can all send me £5 via faster payments so I can buy some tea:madgrin:

[nolegion]

Excellent plan, Simon, if I may say so.

 

Nevertheless, I respectfully suggest you include some further 'contingency options' a.k.a 'Plan B', just to be 'on the safe side'.

 

1. When the next DWATO communication tells you that you have got to attend a medical examination centre 60 miles away rather than the one on your doorstep, because that is where one of the last of the 11 original 'approved recording devices' still working is reputedly to be found, you smile and agree.

 

2. The day before the rescheduled and relocated appointment you expend what is left of your budget of time, patience, health and tea-money for that day, or week, on the telephone trying to ascertain whether or not the 120 mile round trip would be a further, total, miserable, painful, waste of time and money.

 

3.When your efforts are met with a further cancellation and further rescheduling, you smile and agree, and ask to be sent confirmation.

 

4. Repeat 2 & 3 for several months.

 

5. Keep a) smiling and b) this thread posted.

 

NB. Please remember to leave instructions to your executors that they should inform us of the final outcome, in case you should achieve an 'undeniable descriptor-score' by expiring before you are properly treated in accordance with the policy announced to Parliament last February. In this event, we will send flowers rather than tea-money. Can't say fairer than that.

Edited July 1, 2012 by nolegion