Sherforce Again PLEASE HELP !!!

[brassnecked]

Jenjubs, what they do around here, is as they are responsible for supply and sewerage, and many bills are RV/Ctax based, if even a couple of quid is left owing at the end of the financial year, they go straight for CCJ, and refuse instalments., citing the bill is due now, and as the ususally low income debtor, has failed to repay, on time previously they need the CCJ to guarantee payment of the bill. The County Court in Northampton which is usually the choice of court of the utilities, merely rubber stamps them in it's usual bulk kangaroo manner, so there is no meaningful check, on the applications, and utilities know that a debtor will usually put head in sand and let Northampton Kangaroo bulk clearing centre do it's worst. Then Up to High Court for fi-fa, then out to the likes of Sherfarce.

 

Next thing a debtor on low income or benefits is threatened with the house being cleared out by the HCEO, and the kid's Wii or PS3 joining the telly at auction as the HCEO misrepresents what they can take, to frighten the debtor into submission. They rely on ignorance to do their day to day business, and I wish you good luck in your ongoing fight with SW Sherforce. It is time they were kicked down or bankrupted.

Edited May 7, 2012 by brassnecked

[old bill]

In my case, we have Southern Water for Sewage and their justification for High Court Enforcement, is that they cannot cutoff supply in the way that electricity and gas can. We have Sutton and East Surrey for water and they have always been very reasonable and understanding, especially when their consumers fall on hard times.

 

You are both right with Southern Water using CCJ and High Court Enforcement as the preferred route. In my case, they knew that if I paid another £35.00, then I would have been under the £600.00 limit and they would have to wait another year for the next bill to get it above the threshold again and that is assuming that I had not paid anymore during the following year!

 

I guess it was for that reason that they didn't respond whatsoever. I certainly will be taking the fight to Southern Water and one of my demands will be a review of procedure practice on every CCJ and High Court Enforcement Writ that they have issued in recent years. You only have to look at some of the experiences reported by consumers who have been the victims of SW and Sheforce on here to realise there has been an appalling catalog of errors.

 

My hope is that CCWater will spearhead this and take some of the weight off my shoulders, after all, that is what they are there for, It would also be logical to push CCWater to carry out a review of other water boards who employ these tactics.

 

I am not sure if Ofwat would get involved, as they regulate the industry and not the consumer from what I understand, that said, SW have broken Ofwat guidelines, so it might be of interest.

 

Will keep you posted but should be an interesting couple of weeks !!!

 

From what you have said, it is now clear that Southern Water have abused the legal process, which can be grounds to strike-out any action in a civil court. With regard to having Southern Water investigated over CCJs and Writs of FiFa they have obtained in recent years, may I advise that you consult with a legal professional before approaching the regulators and the police. I certainly wouldn't trust Southern Water to investigate themselves. The fact that Southern Water attempted to pervert the course of justice and were stopped by a judge sitting in a court is serious. In my considered judgement, there is a case to answer, in law, against Southern Water.

[brassnecked]

From what you have said, it is now clear that Southern Water have abused the legal process, which can be grounds to strike-out any action in a civil court. With regard to having Southern Water investigated over CCJs and Writs of FiFa they have obtained in recent years, may I advise that you consult with a legal professional before approaching the regulators and the police. I certainly wouldn't trust Southern Water to investigate themselves. The fact that Southern Water attempted to pervert the course of justice and were stopped by a judge sitting in a court is serious. In my considered judgement, there is a case to answer, in law, against Southern Water.

Southern Water's actions are highly questionable at best, and most likely criminal, the problem is that the powers that be will be reluctant to do anything, to alter the situation, they will opine that it is not in the "Public Interest" to investigate and scrutinise this, as it would "Undermine Public Confidence In The Civil Enforcement System", so they will be happy to let SW and Sherfarce carry on illegally fleecing customers. To do otherwise and investigate would collapse the whole Civil Court house of cards.

[old bill]

Southern Water's actions are highly questionable at best, and most likely criminal, the problem is that the powers that be will be reluctant to do anything, to alter the situation, they will opine that it is not in the "Public Interest" to investigate and scrutinise this, as it would "Undermine Public Confidence In The Civil Enforcement System", so they will be happy to let SW and Sherfarce carry on illegally fleecing customers. To do otherwise and investigate would collapse the whole Civil Court house of cards.

 

You're absolutely right when you say Southern Water's actions in Jemjub's case are most likely criminal. Going by the circumstances, there is clear evidence of Perverting the Course of Justice or, even, Attempting to Pervert the Course of Justice. Either way, the offence carries a substantial custodial sentence. I note your argument about the powers-that-be being reluctant to investigate. In my experience, any offence or, even, alleged offence of Attempting to Pervert or Perverting the Course of Justice is taken seriously where evidence exists. If Jemjubs does go to the police with the evidence they have, including the evidence from the court, it will be investigated, particularly as the judge seems happy for Jemjubs to take the matter further. It is immaterial whether a perversion of justice takes place in the criminal justice or civil law system - it undermines the entire legal system. The next question is, "Would other CCJs and Writs of FiFa be investigated as well as jemjub's, as a result of the revelations in their case?" Again, in my experience, if it is found that a claimant/plaintiff has set out to pervert justice, including misleading a court, it raises questions about the validity of other proceedings brought by that claimant/plaintiff prior to the perversions coming to light. I do know, from when I was in the police force, that if a police officer was found to be perverting the course of justice, for whatever reason, all cases that officer had dealt with were subject to review. As Ploddertom has said, in this case, Sherforce haven't actually done anything wrong. However, they and their HCEOs can be summoned/subpoenaed to give evidence against Southern Water.

Edited May 7, 2012 by old bill

[Jemjubs]

The fact that Southern Water attempted to pervert the course of justice and were stopped by a judge sitting in a court is serious. In my considered judgement, there is a case to answer, in law, against Southern Water.

 

Oh but the SW legal representative (after having been given a 10 minute recess to phone SW litigation to find out what had gone on, under the direction of the judge) said "It was an administrative error and was possibly overlooked", so I guess that's OK then... Thankfully the Judge had seen and heard enough by that point.

 

Fortunately, what I believe to be a deliberate attempt to Pervert the Course of Justice, would appear to be far more clear cut because it was nothing to do with what I have disclosed on here (for obvious reasons) and would appear to be a pro-active measure to mislead by one or more employees of SW rather than anything that could be seen a being as a result as inaction of ineptitude. To this purpose, yes I really do think there is a case to answer !!!

[old bill]

Oh but the SW legal representative (after having been given a 10 minute recess to phone SW litigation to find out what had gone on, under the direction of the judge) said "It was an administrative error and was possibly overlooked", so I guess that's OK then... Thankfully the Judge had seen and heard enough by that point.

 

Fortunately, what I believe to be a deliberate attempt to Pervert the Course of Justice, would appear to be far more clear cut because it was nothing to do with what I have disclosed on here (for obvious reasons) and would appear to be a pro-active measure to mislead by one or more employees of SW rather than anything that could be seen a being as a result as inaction of ineptitude. To this purpose, yes I really do think there is a case to answer !!!

 

I would be inclined to report Southern Water's solicitor to the SRA. If what you say is indeed going on, then the solicitor should ensure it is not going on and refuse to handle any cases where there is or where they with reasonable cause suspect to be complete 100% compliance. Failure to do so is not only a breach of the law, but of the Solicitor's Code of Conduct, also. It is serious professional misconduct for a legal professional to mislead a court or engage in, or aid and/or abet, or counsel or procure others to engage in any unlawful or illegal conduct of any description. I think you will find that what you suspect is going on at Southern Water has almost certainly or, at the very least, most likely been sanctioned at board level.

[Jemjubs]

I would be inclined to report Southern Water's solicitor to the SRA. If what you say is indeed going on, then the solicitor should ensure it is not going on and refuse to handle any cases where there is or where they with reasonable cause suspect to be complete 100% compliance. Failure to do so is not only a breach of the law, but of the Solicitor's Code of Conduct, also. It is serious professional misconduct for a legal professional to mislead a court or engage in, or aid and/or abet, or counsel or procure others to engage in any unlawful or illegal conduct of any description. I think you will find that what you suspect is going on at Southern Water has almost certainly or, at the very least, most likely been sanctioned at board level.

 

In fairness, I liked her professional approach and in her defence, she was only handed the case notes the night before and it was clear that she had not been furnished with the facts and was therefore put in an uncomfortable position by the judges questions.

 

I would suspect the reason for them being handed over late was that an internal investigation may have been launched as my complaint and disclosure documents had been sent to the CEO the previous week. Quite reasonable that they would have been withheld from the litigation team given the circumstances.

[old bill]

Given what you say, Jemjubs, probably the best thing to do is pursue a civil action against Southern Water. I would think, given the circumstances, they will be pretty keen to settle out of court, rather than risk their grubby actions coming out in an open court.

[MadMaisy]

Really interesting thread & glad to hear the OP got things sorted out.

 

Sorry to hijack post, let me know if I need to start a new thread pls?

 

I have a similar scenario with SW & Sherforce. Original debt with SW was for around £558 but as with this OP, legal fees took the debt over the £600 mark.

I too never received any CCJ paperwork, first I knew was a Sherforce guy at my door.

 

When I contacted SW I was told that because this years bill was also in arrears I would be eligible to apply for SW's NewStart scheme where customers with over £750 debt & haven't paid anything for 2 years can have payments made this year matched by SW to reduce their outstanding debt.

Duly applied for said scheme & in meantime contacted SW for a payment card to start making at least some payments towards this years bill.

I was told by advisor that she could see I had applied for NewStart scheme but that as that debt had been passed to an external agency that it couldn't be included in the overall debt, therefore I wouldn't be eligible for this scheme.

 

Given that SW go for CCJs within 4 months of new bills being issued & unpaid as a matter of course & then for Writ Of Fifa shortly thereafter, surely every debt will fall into this category, so NO-ONE will ever qualify for the NewStart scheme?!!

I haven't had any confirmation from SW whether I have been accepted or declined...

 

My debt with Sherforce fees now stands at over £2k, I have nothing to sell (HCEO checked) & no vehicle & on a low income with a miriad of other joint debts to repay courtesy of my disappearing ex.

I rang Sherforce to make an offer to pay, the guy at the Indian call centre refused point blank to accept a payment unless it was the full amount.

I contacted SW litigation dept who replied saying that they or Sherforce had never received my written offer to pay (sent twice) & that I have 14 days to email all the information I wrote down.

 

CCCs have advised I apply on an N244 which I think I have seen sight of a blank one & think I can complete.

 

Sherforce HCEO who came to my house, very professional & doing his job, Sherforce guy in Indian call centre hideous in the worst way.

 

Just wondering if there is any way I flag up the issues regarding the NewStart scheme to a regulator or other body that ISNT SW themselves - given SWs procedure for debt collection means that no-one would ever be eligible!!

 

Thank you

[Annette1973]

I was just wondering. Before a Writ of FiFa is granted, does it need to be a CCJ first?

[MadMaisy]

I think they have to get a CCJ first yes & then the Writ but in my case I never even knew about the CCJ, I don't think they have to inform you that they have gone for a Writ.

Am one of the posters on here will know for sure

[brassnecked]

They must have a CCJ, it must be for more than £600 to allow transfer to the High Court for a writ of fi-fa. No CCJ HCEO cannot be engaed,as HCEO or bailiff, can act as debt collector only without CCJ.

[Annette1973]

They must have a CCJ, it must be for more than £600 to allow transfer to the High Court for a writ of fi-fa. No CCJ HCEO cannot be engaed,as HCEO or bailiff, can act as debt collector only without CCJ.

 

Thanks BN. Southern Water and Sherforce has been at it with my husband. He has a thread on the forums regarding it, his username is duncan1970. We have received a letter from Northampton, where Southern Water supposedly had the CCJ granted, and they said that the case had not been heard yet and that they had not granted any CCJ's against either of us. We then did a registry search and there were no judgments in our names. This did not stop Sherforce from coming out and taking my daughters car though. They refuse to acknowledge every letter we send them, as do Southern Water. I would just leave it if it were my car they took, but instead they took my daughters car which was worth a lot more. Now I realise they did not have the CCJ, we will definitely pursue it.

[MadMaisy]

Not that it makes any of this any less painful but I feel a bit better knowing that it isn't just me having problems with SW & Sherforce

 

It's enough to make you lose the will to live

[ploddertom]

Not that it makes any of this any less painful but I feel a bit better knowing that it isn't just me having problems with SW & Sherforce

 

It's enough to make you lose the will to live

 

If you start your own thread we'll see if there is anything we can do to help.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=168

 

PT

[Jemjubs]

Really interesting thread & glad to hear the OP got things sorted out.

 

Sorry to hijack post, let me know if I need to start a new thread pls?

 

I have a similar scenario with SW & Sherforce. Original debt with SW was for around £558 but as with this OP, legal fees took the debt over the £600 mark.

I too never received any CCJ paperwork, first I knew was a Sherforce guy at my door.

 

When I contacted SW I was told that because this years bill was also in arrears I would be eligible to apply for SW's NewStart scheme where customers with over £750 debt & haven't paid anything for 2 years can have payments made this year matched by SW to reduce their outstanding debt.

Duly applied for said scheme & in meantime contacted SW for a payment card to start making at least some payments towards this years bill.

I was told by advisor that she could see I had applied for NewStart scheme but that as that debt had been passed to an external agency that it couldn't be included in the overall debt, therefore I wouldn't be eligible for this scheme.

 

Given that SW go for CCJs within 4 months of new bills being issued & unpaid as a matter of course & then for Writ Of Fifa shortly thereafter, surely every debt will fall into this category, so NO-ONE will ever qualify for the NewStart scheme?!!

I haven't had any confirmation from SW whether I have been accepted or declined...

 

My debt with Sherforce fees now stands at over £2k, I have nothing to sell (HCEO checked) & no vehicle & on a low income with a miriad of other joint debts to repay courtesy of my disappearing ex.

I rang Sherforce to make an offer to pay, the guy at the Indian call centre refused point blank to accept a payment unless it was the full amount.

I contacted SW litigation dept who replied saying that they or Sherforce had never received my written offer to pay (sent twice) & that I have 14 days to email all the information I wrote down.

 

CCCs have advised I apply on an N244 which I think I have seen sight of a blank one & think I can complete.

 

Sherforce HCEO who came to my house, very professional & doing his job, Sherforce guy in Indian call centre hideous in the worst way.

 

Just wondering if there is any way I flag up the issues regarding the NewStart scheme to a regulator or other body that ISNT SW themselves - given SWs procedure for debt collection means that no-one would ever be eligible!!

 

Thank you

 

 

Hi MM..... I can only sympathise and like I have said elsewhere, until you have been there and felt the injustice of it all, no one can truly appreciate the complete upheaval and upset that it causes. You really do wonder if you are going mad at times and like I said in my thread, if it had happened 1-2 years ago the outcome for my health and welfare might have been very different!

 

Wonkydonky and Ploddertom and others will hopefully help steer you in the right direction, they were brilliant for me and I learnt quickly, It would be good for you to start your own thread,so that your plight is highlighted and people can respond appropriately. You are not alone and hopefully things are going to change for the better very shortly.

 

On the new thread, can you give me rough dates (months) concerning SW letters before the CCJ, the service of the CCJ and the SW pre-enforcement letter that would/should have be sent before them applying for a Writ FiFa, and the rough date of the Writ FiFa itself. Or just tell me on this thread is it is easier.

 

I do not consider myself knowledgeable enough to advise on what you need to do, as others on here are much better informed but I am going after SW and their disgusting contempt for their consumers and the law !!!

 

I am dealing with CCWater, who are the consumer based regulators for the water industry, recorded delivery letters to the CEO of Southern Water are now sent by me on a weekly basis and my next target is their annual audit, as the accountants have to include in their report, items such as billing and debt collection procedures, anti-corruption and complaint procedures. Not sure if I can get them to investigate the period April 2011 - March 2012 as it is due out in June but I will sure as hell try.

 

The other logical step is letters of complaint to SW catchment area MPs........

 

Oh and to cap it all, the police will be informed next week, if an SW internal investigation does not come up with a satisfactory explanation for what would appear to be falsification of documents and attempting to pervert the course of justice by one or more employees.

 

I will therefore be taking great interest in all the threads concerning Southern Water and Sherforce, oh and for what it is worth yes I agree, the Indian call centre was the pits and I honestly thought it was a set up, when he was screaming at me to get my card out and pay, this was no more than 10mins after the first HCEO visit.... no wonder I called the police that evening

[MadMaisy]

Yes the little man at the call centre almost caused me to have meltdown!

 

I will start a new thread when I have fed my screaming hoards, thank you

[brassnecked]

Thanks BN. Southern Water and Sherforce has been at it with my husband. He has a thread on the forums regarding it, his username is duncan1970. We have received a letter from Northampton, where Southern Water supposedly had the CCJ granted, and they said that the case had not been heard yet and that they had not granted any CCJ's against either of us. We then did a registry search and there were no judgments in our names. This did not stop Sherforce from coming out and taking my daughters car though. They refuse to acknowledge every letter we send them, as do Southern Water. I would just leave it if it were my car they took, but instead they took my daughters car which was worth a lot more. Now I realise they did not have the CCJ, we will definitely pursue it.

 

 

If there is no court judgment, they cannot send a HCEO to seize goods or add loadsa fees, this is criminal, as they have miserpresented their powers, no ccj means Sherfarce had no right to sieze anything. SW are ultimately responsible, so they should be the target.

[MadMaisy]

I have started a new thread,although now I can't find the link ugh!

 

I did forget to include the ques you asked above Jembubs.

 

- 2 letters before the CCJ I think (one was red)

- I never received any kind of service of the CCJ, only on further investiagtion did I find out that one had been made in July 11

- No pre enforcement letter received by me

- No idea of the date of the Writ or even if there is on (although the HCEO told me there is one)

 

MM

[old bill]

Thanks BN. Southern Water and Sherforce has been at it with my husband. He has a thread on the forums regarding it, his username is duncan1970. We have received a letter from Northampton, where Southern Water supposedly had the CCJ granted, and they said that the case had not been heard yet and that they had not granted any CCJ's against either of us. We then did a registry search and there were no judgments in our names. This did not stop Sherforce from coming out and taking my daughters car though. They refuse to acknowledge every letter we send them, as do Southern Water. I would just leave it if it were my car they took, but instead they took my daughters car which was worth a lot more. Now I realise they did not have the CCJ, we will definitely pursue it.

 

If there's no CCJ, the seizure is, in my considered judgement, illegal, as the Writ of FiFa was obtained using perjured evidence or by perjury. The HCEOs need to be informed immediately and told to return the car forthwith. Watch that the buggers don't go running to a Court Master at the High Court for protection. In fact, get your daughter to slap a Third Party Claim on both SW and Sherforce. If they try to sell her car, that would be Theft and both they and Southern Water would be in the running for Theft (Sherforce) and Handling Stolen Goods (Southern Water). It would be interesting to see what a Court Master would say about that.

[brassnecked]

Oldbill, I think it was time this not so comedic duo of SW and Sherfarce were put in front of the beak on criminal charges, it gets worse and worse, seizing cars with no CCJ,

Edited May 9, 2012 by brassnecked

[Jemjubs]

I have started a new thread,although now I can't find the link ugh!

 

I did forget to include the ques you asked above Jembubs.

 

- 2 letters before the CCJ I think (one was red)

- I never received any kind of service of the CCJ, only on further investiagtion did I find out that one had been made in July 11

- No pre enforcement letter received by me

- No idea of the date of the Writ or even if there is on (although the HCEO told me there is one)

 

MM

 

PT or WD will no doubt tell you on the other thread but a SAR to Southern Water is a must. I can PM you the name of the Data Manager and what I asked for if it helps?

 

Best £10.00 I have ever spent...........

[MadMaisy]

Please that would be great thank you.

I'm not s stupid person but all of this is taking up more brain capacity that I possess!

[old bill]

BN. There is a procedure that can be used to do this, particularly where the police drag their heels or sing the "It's A Civil Matter" song. It is not something I would encourage a layperson to undertake themselves. It requires a pretty good knowledge of Criminal Law and is best done with the assistance of a legal or law enforcement professional, serving/practising or retired. It also requires there to be pretty good evidence. The reason I have recommended a Third Party Claim be slapped on both SW and Sherfarce by Annette's daughter is to block any attempt by Sherfarce to sell the vehicle. Whether an interpleader would be better, I don't know. However, if Sherfarce do try to sell the vehicle, knowing they had no right or power to do so, both they and SW stand to face charges such as Fraud by False Misrepresentation (in respect of the mug who buys it at auction) and Handling Stolen Goods (in respect of Sherfarce being involved in the disposal/realisation of stolen goods and SW in respect of receiving the proceeds of the disposal/realisation of stolen goods).

 

Any HCEO who ignored a Third Party Claim on a vehicle they had seized illegally or wrongfully and proceeded to sell it would, in my considered judgement, raise serious questions as to their fitness to continue to act as an HCEO. A conviction for Fraud or Handling Stolen Goods should, in my considered judgement, result in immediate cancellation of their authorisation to act as an HCEO.

[Jemjubs]

It is becoming increasingly obvious that some form of group action is needed, whether that be through the courts or through the media.

 

The real problem with this is that every case is different and the victims are already on hard times, so more expense and time is a burden for most.

 

On the plus side, all the cases have one thing in common and that is missing paper work and SW's admission that they only use standard mail and there is no proof that anything has been sent, received or dealt with other than their word of course, which we know can not be trusted.

 

I am very curious as to why the court papers from Northampton have not turned up for a few people now, perhaps there is a case to answer there as well?

 

I will do my best in my dealings with SW and CCWater to fight the corner and get cases reviewed for other CAG members, ( if they are agreeable) but I guess what is really required, is a review of all cases and perhaps that is where the media might need to be involved.

 

Any thoughts on this ???

Edited May 10, 2012 by Jemjubs