Sherforce Again PLEASE HELP !!!

[brassnecked]

Excellent news :whoo:for you and as for Sherfarce and SW they got what they deserved in the end.

[ploddertom]

http://www.shergroup.net/blog/?page_id=1684

[brassnecked]

http://www.shergroup.net/blog/?page_id=1684

 

The arrogance of the woman knows no bounds, would she like those vulnerable debtors to be automatically handed to Sherfarce, with an extra £1000 for their collection service to the water company? sure seems that way

[wonkeydonkey]

UPDATE

 

Set Aside.......... Granted

 

Stay of Write.... Granted

 

Well I would like to say a big thank you to Ploddertom, Wonkeydonkey and others who gave me help with regards to this matter, as a result of information unveiled in the SAR from Southern Water that was picked up on by the judge, he was able to ask Southern Water if they wished to still oppose the applications for Set Aside and Stay of Writ....... A rather embarrassed SW solicitor (due to not being furnished with the facts by her own litigation team) had to concede that they would no longer oppose

 

£2750.00 should be heading back my way and Southern Water will have to pay Sherforce out of their own pocket (or to be precise out of the consumers pocket)

 

Very hard going and cost me £2900.00 in loss of earnings to pursue this, I was relieved with the outcome but no big smiles as this for me, as this is just the start of the battle.

 

I will now be pursuing civil action against SW for my costs and distress and also follow up on a complaint that I made regarding the issuing of the Writ FiFa that may end up in a disciplinary hearing or better still criminal proceedings against an employee.

 

Now to formally register my complaint with CCWater and alert media watchdogs amongst others

 

WELL DONE:whoo::whoo:sorry I couldn't answer your email I have had hellish problems with my server

Thrilled to see both Sherfarce and SW in their rightful place

 

WD

[Jemjubs]

WELL DONE:whoo::whoo:sorry I couldn't answer your email I have had hellish problems with my server

Thrilled to see both Sherfarce and SW in their rightful place

 

WD

 

 

Could not have done it without you guys, I didn't even know what a SAR or N244 was until I joined the CAG forum

 

The arrogance of the woman knows no bounds, would she like those vulnerable debtors to be automatically handed to Sherfarce, with an extra £1000 for their collection service to the water company? sure seems that way

 

Self richous twaddle she has no concern for the vulnerable and is incapable of showing one ounce of humanity from what I can see. Yes, like any business, waterboards and utility companies need paying and bad debt is a huge problem but to tar every debtor with the same brush is wrong, like countless others, I didn't even know there was a debt until the HCEO's knock on the door and then they start apply their £1000.00 per visit tactics

Edited May 4, 2012 by Jemjubs

[brassnecked]

Could not have done it without you guys, I didn't even know what a SAR or N244 was until I joined the CAG forum

 

 

 

Self richous twaddle she has no concern for the vulnerable and is incapable of showing one once of humanity from what I can see. Yes, like any business, waterboards and utility companies need paying and bad debt is a huge problem but to tar every debtor with the same brush is wrong, like countless others, I didn't even know there was a debt until the HCEO's knock on the door and then they start apply their £1000.00 per visit tactics

 

We can only hope that some bad Karma will attach itself, and they get a good spanking by a judge, they are investigated and closed down. Water and fuel are becoming affordable only to the rich, if someone has lost their job, how can this arrogant woman expect them to pay her obnoxiously high fees if they can't afford the bill in the first place. Help not financial punishment is what is required.

 

I think a march to water utilitiy headquarters simultaneously, with customers handing the "Shirt Off Their Backs" over the counter to illustrate how desperate some are when faced with these eye watering bills, all filmed as part of a protest..

[old bill]

Jemjubs,

 

When you say "criminal charges", could you elaborate on what you mean, please?

[Jemjubs]

Jemjubs,

 

When you say "criminal charges", could you elaborate on what you mean, please?

 

Other than saying that someone may have attempted to pervert the course of justice, I'm afraid I can't at this stage ;-)

[old bill]

I have a reasonably good idea of what you're getting at, Jemjubs.

 

Please be aware, however, that in cases of Perverting the Course of Justice you need to be able to show who was responsible for any such conduct, how it affected or would have affected the outcome of a case and would there have been any different outcome had it not been for the conduct.

 

It needs to be borne in mind that the offence of Perverting the Course of Justice, although a Common Law offence, is taken very seriously and carries a substantial custodial sentence.

 

If a legal professional has been involved, then this needs to be brought to the attention of the court that dealt with the case. The reason for this is because other cases that legal professional has put through that court may need to be reviewed and, if necessary, re-tried or judgements rescinded. I am attaching a PDF copy of a form to report a solicitor to the Solicitors Regulation Authority (SRA) if a solicitor has been involved in any way. For any legal professional to mislead a court is serious professional misconduct and must be reported. If a barrister is involved, then this needs to be reported to the Bar Standards Board (BSB). If a legal executive is involved, this needs to be reported to the Institute of Legal Executives (ILEX).

Report a solicitor form.pdf

[Jemjubs]

I have a reasonably good idea of what you're getting at, Jemjubs.

 

Please be aware, however, that in cases of Perverting the Course of Justice you need to be able to show who was responsible for any such conduct, how it affected or would have affected the outcome of a case and would there have been any different outcome had it not been for the conduct.

 

It needs to be borne in mind that the offence of Perverting the Course of Justice, although a Common Law offence, is taken very seriously and carries a substantial custodial sentence.

 

If a legal professional has been involved, then this needs to be brought to the attention of the court that dealt with the case. The reason for this is because other cases that legal professional has put through that court may need to be reviewed and, if necessary, re-tried or judgements rescinded. I am attaching a PDF copy of a form to report a solicitor to the Solicitors Regulation Authority (SRA) if a solicitor has been involved in any way. For any legal professional to mislead a court is serious professional misconduct and must be reported. If a barrister is involved, then this needs to be reported to the Bar Standards Board (BSB). If a legal executive is involved, this needs to be reported to the Institute of Legal Executives (ILEX).

 

Thank you OB

 

Yes I can, yes it would and no it didn't but would have, if it had not been spotted

 

Oh and the Judge was made aware of the allegation and supporting evidence at the hearing, however, my presumption would be, that as Set Aside was granted, this effectively meant that the issuing of the Writ FiFa became annulled and from the courts perspective, the judge by granting Stay of Writ effectively closed the case.

 

I would therefore assume that what I perceive to be an attempt to pervert the course of justice concerned the issuing of the Writ FiFa, then this would be more a matter for the police and regulatory bodies? It would of course also constitute evidence in any civil proceedings I choose to bring against SW.

 

Many thanks for the forms, they will be used if needed and deemed appropriate to the persons legal status.

Edited May 6, 2012 by Jemjubs

[old bill]

Hi Jemjubs,

 

Trying to load a claim to push it up above the £600 mark is a common trick of water companies. I have looked at the Water Industry Act 1991 and can find nothing that allows a water company to claim for water it has not yet supplied or sewerage services it has not yet provided. In the absence of any case or statute law stating they can, I would be inclined to take it that Southern Water's actions in your case amount to Unjustifiable Enrichment, at best, and Perverting the Course of Justice, at worst, especially if they have tried to claim for solicitor's fees when the law states they cannot. This is especially true if the amount involved falls within the Small Claims Track.

 

In view of what has happened, I would be inclined to speak to the court's legal team, in the first instance, as to provision of documents, etc., and be guided by them as to how to go from there. Please be aware that any decision to prosecute for an offence of Perverting the Course of Justice lies with the CPS.

 

As for the £2900 in losses you have suffered as a result of Souther Water's action, I would be inclined to recover this from them and, if you need to obtain a CCJ, use a firm of HCEOs, other than Sherforce if Southern Water drag their heels.

[brassnecked]

what the water companies have been doing increasingly, is not arranging payment plans, as the bill on a Council Tax value based bill is due in full at the beginning of the financial year, they are going for CJ at once and sending in the HCEOs, whereas with a metered account, they can only charge retrospectively on usage, but no doubt they have gone to court like the power companies do on estimated bills be3fore now.

[old bill]

what the water companies have been doing increasingly, is not arranging payment plans, as the bill on a Council Tax value based bill is due in full at the beginning of the financial year, they are going for CJ at once and sending in the HCEOs, whereas with a metered account, they can only charge retrospectively on usage, but no doubt they have gone to court like the power companies do on estimated bills be3fore now.

 

Utility companies tend to rely on customers' lack of legal knowledge - that's why they get away with it so much. If it were not for forums such as CAG and LB, to name two, a lot of utility customers would be beaten to pulp, in the legal sense. What is needed is a crackdown on creditors, as well as enforcement agents. The only way a utility company can obtain a CCJ they can then use to obtain a Writ of FiFa is to have a genuine debt of over £600 or fabricate figures and then lie to and mislead a court. For any legal professional to mislead a court, whether deliberately or recklessly, is a serious matter and constitutes serious professional misconduct as well as, potentially, Perverting the Course of Justice.

 

Unless a utility company can provide evidence of case or statute law that proves they can behave in the manner they do with debtors, it should be taken that their actions are potentially unlawful or, even, illegal. Repeatedly insisting they are doing nothing wrong and failing/refusing to provide such evidence to confirm this is a pretty sure indication that what they are doing is far from legitimate.

[brassnecked]

A Water Company has told some people that as they were in arrears and only paid the last installment, in March, they could not have a payment agreement, and that the accounts would be handled by Bay Collections, their debt enforcement arm which doesn't have an 0800 number, but only an 0845, and one missed instalment could mean that they go straight away for CCJ for the entire amount for 2012 plus legal costs, Don't know what HCEO they would use but these customers are low income families.

[Jemjubs]

As I understand it, if a consumer cannot afford to pay the Utility Company's bill and the consumer makes offer of a payment plan, then the company needs to acknowledge it and either set up a plan, send an attachment of earnings or refuse instalments and demand immediate payment, which they are entitled to do of course.

 

In my case they banked the money I sent them and they never responded to the request, the next thing that happened was a CCJ seven months later !!!

 

A copy of my wife's letter to SW with banked payment was provided back to me by SAR (SW did not have a copy in court, so the SW legal representative was unprepared for what followed). The judge picked up on this and stated that their failure to respond would have given me a good defence in the original CCJ hearing (had I been aware of it). Therefore by default SW were in the wrong and asked SW whether they wished to withdraw their opposition to the applications.

 

Regarding my accusation of Attempting to Pervert the Course of Justice against an employee of SW, that is a completely different kettle of fish and the judge was clearly astounded by what had been uncovered but it was not discussed in depth, as it is a separate issue that happened after the original CCJ had been granted.

 

He was fully aware of the facts was happy for me to follow up with civil proceedings and an internal investigation within SW. Whether the police are notified will depend on what is uncovered of course.

[old bill]

A Water Company has told some people that as they were in arrears and only paid the last installment, in March, they could not have a payment agreement, and that the accounts would be handled by Bay Collections, their debt enforcement arm which doesn't have an 0800 number, but only an 0845, and one missed instalment could mean that they go straight away for CCJ for the entire amount for 2012 plus legal costs, Don't know what HCEO they would use but these customers are low income families.

 

If that's the case, the only way they could obtain a CCJ is to lie to and mislead the court. Under CPRs, you have to be able to prove you have attempted to resolve the matter by other means, including payment plans. I cannot, in all honesty, see any judge tolerating the sort of thing you outlined in your post, BN, unless the judge is totally devoid of any sense of justice and propriety.

[old bill]

As I understand it, if a consumer cannot afford to pay the Utility Company's bill and the consumer makes offer of a payment plan, then the company needs to acknowledge it and either set up a plan, send an attachment of earnings or refuse instalments and demand immediate payment, which they are entitled to do of course.

 

In my case they banked the money I sent them and they never responded to the request, the next thing that happened was a CCJ seven months later !!!

 

A copy of my wife's letter to SW with banked payment was provided back to me by SAR (SW did not have a copy in court, so the SW legal representative was unprepared for what followed). The judge picked up on this and stated that their failure to respond would have given me a good defence in the original CCJ hearing (had I been aware of it). Therefore by default SW were in the wrong and asked SW whether they wished to withdraw their opposition to the applications.

 

Regarding my accusation of Attempting to Pervert the Course of Justice against an employee of SW, that is a completely different kettle of fish and the judge was clearly astounded by what had been uncovered but it was not discussed in depth, as it is a separate issue that happened after the original CCJ had been granted.

 

He was fully aware of the facts was happy for me to follow up with civil proceedings and an internal investigation within SW. Whether the police are notified will depend on what is uncovered of course.

 

I don't know who the judge was and which court he/she sits at, Jemjub, but they're one bloody good judge! Southern Water were in the wrong, period. By banking the payment and not responding, they basically acted unreasonably and the judge is within their right and power to refuse an outright judgement in their favour under those circumstances, but can make a judgement for something like a structured settlement (another name for a settlement by instalments). By making a payment, you and your wife showed the court you were not refusing to pay, which would weaken Southern Water's arguments.

 

Unfortunately, DJs and DDJs in the civil courts cannot deal with Perverting the Course of Justice offences. As stated in my earlier post, the matter will need to be referred to the CPS. However, the judge who heard your case can make an order so that the case papers and transcript of the hearing can be used as evidence. This is why I have advised you to speak to the legal team at the court. In my considered judgement, I feel that Southern Water have two choices open to them - if they call in the police, they leave themselves wide open to a very searching investigation which will, I suspect, involve the police interviewing employees up to and including boardroom level. That could be highly-damaging for Southern Water. If they've got any sense, they'll repay what they owe, plus reimburse your loss of salary and costs with a full admission of liability. They haven't really got a lot of choice, in my opinion.

[brassnecked]

If that's the case, the only way they could obtain a CCJ is to lie to and mislead the court. Under CPRs, you have to be able to prove you have attempted to resolve the matter by other means, including payment plans. I cannot, in all honesty, see any judge tolerating the sort of thing you outlined in your post, BN, unless the judge is totally devoid of any sense of justice and propriety.

 

That is what water companies do, they say the entire bill for 2012 or whatever year is due April, and the installments are only a concession, they often go for CCJ around May, to make sure they get their money, naughty but it seems to be the way they operate since the Fresh Start cut you off prepayment meters were oulawed, as a means of collecting water debt, as they cut people off without a court order.

[old bill]

That's not the only thing water companies are prohibited from using, BN. They're not allowed to use any form of equipment that restricts water flow to a property. The reason for this is because some appliances, particularly gas boilers, can be affected by low water pressure and become dangerous. When the Tories privatised the water industry, the muppets failed to amend public health legislation which requires a running water supply to each residential property. I won't go into the reasons why, but I think most caggers can work that one out! I can find nothing in case or statute law that requires a consumer to pay for water and sewerage services in advance. I think if this was brought to the attention of a court, water companies would be put on the spot and their unacceptable behaviour exposed to the glare of public scrutiny. It would be interesting to see what happened.

[brassnecked]

Oldbill, they do this mainly where houses are not on water meters as a great deal of social housing still is, larger families would be worse off with a water meter, so they rely on the fact that the bill is settled as is council tax payable, forthwith on first week of April at the beginning of the financial year, and that installments are a concession not a right, so they may well go for a CCJ May June time to make sure they are paid.

[old bill]

Thanks for that, BN. That answers a lot of questions I was going to ask in one go. A lot of older social housing stock cannot have water meters fitted for technical reasons, mainly, because they have a rising main or are multi-occupancy. With regards to Council Tax, I can only go by my local authority who collect over a 10-month period, if you pay by Direct Debit, usually, May to February, or a 12-month period, if you pay by instalment booklet. The local water company where I live is South West Water. On the whole, they are okay and will try and sort out a way of customers paying their water bills where they have having problems. They were like Southern Water up until some years ago when they were given a hammering for treating customers badly. They had to change their ways, otherwise the regulator made it quite clear there would be consequences. It will be interesting to see if Jemjubs case makes Southern Water change their ways. I do know, from having discussed cases like Jemjubs with a number of legal professionals I know that judges in the civil courts do not like bullying. They also look to see if a customer has been given a reasonable opportunity to pay. If Southern Water is using CCJs as a default revenue collection method, sooner or later, the bar is going to come down on them.

[brassnecked]

Oldblll I saw a lot of this whilst I did advice work in a CAB,I still do as a community councillor, and all the water companies are guilty of this one as it isn't strictly absolutely unlawful, I would like to see them get a good kicking by a judge, and the appeal of the Utility dismissed at the High Court, they finally get the picture when they are kicked out of the Supreme Court.

 

However there is more chance of me winning £20 million in the Euromillions that this happening. Time to re-nationalise water imho

[old bill]

Oldblll I saw a lot of this whilst I did advice work in a CAB,I still do as a community councillor, and all the water companies are guilty of this one as it isn't strictly absolutely unlawful, I would like to see them get a good kicking by a judge, and the appeal of the Utility dismissed at the High Court, they finally get the picture when they are kicked out of the Supreme Court.

 

However there is more chance of me winning £20 million in the Euromillions that this happening. Time to re-nationalise water imho

 

I think re-nationalisation of the water industry is very likely. It has been predicted that, when all water customers have to be on meters, by law, the privatised water industry will be bankrupt within six months. The only way out of a situation like that is re-nationalisation.

[brassnecked]

I think re-nationalisation of the water industry is very likely. It has been predicted that, when all water customers have to be on meters, by law, the privatised water industry will be bankrupt within six months. The only way out of a situation like that is re-nationalisation.

Exactly, water as a life essential should be a municipal responsibility, not in the hands of foreign owned companies that bend rules and terrorise low paid and vulnerable people with the sharks from the likes of Sherforce.

[Jemjubs]

Exactly, water as a life essential should be a municipal responsibility, not in the hands of foreign owned companies that bend rules and terrorise low paid and vulnerable people with the sharks from the likes of Sherforce.

 

In my case, we have Southern Water for Sewage and their justification for High Court Enforcement, is that they cannot cutoff supply in the way that electricity and gas can. We have Sutton and East Surrey for water and they have always been very reasonable and understanding, especially when their consumers fall on hard times.

 

You are both right with Southern Water using CCJ and High Court Enforcement as the preferred route. In my case, they knew that if I paid another £35.00, then I would have been under the £600.00 limit and they would have to wait another year for the next bill to get it above the threshold again and that is assuming that I had not paid anymore during the following year!

 

I guess it was for that reason that they didn't respond whatsoever. I certainly will be taking the fight to Southern Water and one of my demands will be a review of procedure practice on every CCJ and High Court Enforcement Writ that they have issued in recent years. You only have to look at some of the experiences reported by consumers who have been the victims of SW and Sheforce on here to realise there has been an appalling catalog of errors.

 

My hope is that CCWater will spearhead this and take some of the weight off my shoulders, after all, that is what they are there for, It would also be logical to push CCWater to carry out a review of other water boards who employ these tactics.

 

I am not sure if Ofwat would get involved, as they regulate the industry and not the consumer from what I understand, that said, SW have broken Ofwat guidelines, so it might be of interest.

 

Will keep you posted but should be an interesting couple of weeks !!!

Edited May 7, 2012 by Jemjubs