Sherforce Again PLEASE HELP !!!

[Figgydoody]

Hi Jemjubs,

 

I have read with great interest your dispute with Southern Water. Well done on everything you've achieved so far!

 

Can I ask what judgment you relied upon to get the set-aside? I ask because I am involved in a dispute with a water company, and even though a defence was submitted the bulk centre have said they did not receive it even though I have proof they did! So I now need to apply to the Court to have this decision set aside.

 

Thanks,

 

Figgydoody.

[wonkeydonkey]

Set Aside follows a County Court Judgment given 'by default' if as you say you can prove a defence was submitted then you will need to apply on form N244 for set aside. Download the form from HMC&T website, if you need any help filling it out.. just ask. If you are on benefits eg: tax credits or low income then you will also need form ex 160

 

A word of caution...the likes of Yorkshire Water and Southern Water among others will transfer any debt with a ccj equal to or above £600 toa writ of Fi' Fa' therefore on your N244 you will need to make a duel application and apply for a stay of execution pending the set aside, otherwise you will find yourself with costs akin to telephone numbers.

 

WD

[Figgydoody]

Hi Wonkeydonkey,

 

Thank you for your comments. I am familiar with how to fill out an N244, it was the specific court case(s) Jemjub used to get the set-aside that I am interested in finding out about. The amount is less than £600.

 

Thanks.

[wonkeydonkey]

Jemjubs had no knowledge of the ccj or the debt until visited by Sherforce HCE, he paid the amount demanded by SF in full and then took both the utility company and Sherforce to task. He got the set aside due to not having been served the claim and that meant he had been denied a defence.. thats it thats the specifics to the case...

 

Can I suggest you start your own thread as new posts often get missed when tagged on to another thread. Also if you care to give a little more info caggers can get you on the right path to sorting such issues as disputed bills.

 

WD

[Jemjubs]

Hello Figgydody

 

As WD said, I had no knowledge of the debt or court judgement whatsoever. Hence my anger and ongoing battle with SW for their failings.

 

In my case it was quite easy, as I had made an offer of instalments to Southern Water on a copy of the internal DCA letter.

 

They banked the cheque but failed to respond to my request, a copy of the letter I sent was given to me as part of the SAR and submitted to the judge.

 

In court they had to admit that they had not followed procedure as they should have accepted or refused and they then said that normally they would have asked for a breakdown of income and expenditure.

 

The judge was aware of the long list of SW wrongdoings but by this stage he had seen enough to grant set aside and stay....

 

I was also not aware of any outstanding debt as the SW bill uses the ambiguous term 'transfer' and 'credit' for when they move the debt to legal proceedings showing a yearly balance of nothing owing other than standard water/sewage yearly charges.

 

Without the help that I got from this forum and especially WD & PT and others that you have seen post on this thread, II would never have known about SAR's and N244's etc, so I would always take on board and follow any advice from those that give their time freely to help people such as me

 

Good luck and it does seem that the Northampton CCBHC really does need to find out why paperwork is going astray...... Even the Sherforce HCEO said that he comes across so many cases where people say that court paperwork has gone missing that they can't all be lying !!!

 

As WD said, what is the proof of sending/receipt that you have?

Edited June 12, 2012 by Jemjubs

[Figgydoody]

Hi Jemjubs.

 

I think I may have misread one of your posts, (lol) as I was under the impression that you had referred to particular case law in getting the judgment against you set aside. But, as you say, given the actions of SW it was hardly surprising that the judge sided with you!

 

I have a detailed fax receipt as proof, so they have definitely received it! The bulk centre doesn't seem to be very competent!

[wonkeydonkey]

In that case you can apply to set aside .....however it is often the case that immediately after granting set aside a Judge will grant the claimant time to reinstate their case and you will then be back on track to a hearing of the claim. Unless you are in a position to pay the debt in full you will simply be exchanging one ccj for another should your defence fail....the only bonus is if you can show means to agree a repayment plan.

 

Like I said earlier, you will need to expand on the dispute scenario if you require advice on how to tackle it?

 

WD

[Figgydoody]

Hi Wonkeydonkey,

 

Thank you for your comments.

 

There are reasons I cannot go into all the details regarding this dispute, but I do not believe I will be swapping one CCJ for another. They have added various amounts to the sum they say is owing, which are admin charges, visits to the property etc, which I don't believe are lawful. That's just the start of things....

 

I spoke to their litigation department this week and they seem to be under the impression that no contract actually exists, which I found hilarious and laughed down the phone! Apparently, the provision of a service and payment for it (although not recently) doesn't constitute a contract! A long discussion ensued, which I won't bore you with, but needless to say he maintained his farcical position and I continued to point out that he was talking nonsense!

 

While I believe he was talking twaddle, I wonder what he sought to achieve by saying there was/is no contract???

 

I intend to ask the Court as part of the set-aside application for permission to include a counterclaim, as I intend to raise issues to do with data protection breaches. Not only have they never obtained my consent regarding the processing of my data, but I've had a look at the ICO's DPA register, and the list of things they do with customer data is eyewatering! I have certainly never consented to any of what they do with the data!

 

Even worse, all communication from them up until a few years ago was in my name only, and then for some reason they added my wife's name. We never requested that they do it. My wife spoke to them on a couple of occasions, but I always had to give consent for that to happen as you would expect.

 

Anyway, even though my wife is nothing to do with this matter, they issued proceedings against her too and have put a CCJ on her credit file! Unbelievable! And the icing on the cake is, they are only pursuing me now in respect of the alleged debt as they've found out that I alone own the property and want to register a charging order!

 

I can't believe their arrogance! According to them there is no contract, which will certainly make things interesting when it comes to them justifying processing and sharing data, there being no contractual necessity, among other reasons; and effectively abusing the court system by trying to say my wife is culpable for the alleged amount! They also put on the claim form that a sum was due which is in advance of when the claim is dated! So how can an amount of money be deemed a 'debt' when it covers a future period in time?

 

Sorry for the rant I'm furious!

 

Anyway, those are some of the issues! I really do feel that pursuing the DPA route is a viable one, perhaps harassment may figure also, and anything else I can think of!lol

 

Figgydoody.

[wonkeydonkey]

If you cannot give inside info on the Forum I would be happy to take it in PM and reply back on forum...its not for me to tell you how to go about this but I will be very guilty of failure if I do not to express my concerns and I can tell you the DPA route will result in you being left with costs akin to telephone numbers when you fail.

 

WD

[Figgydoody]

Can I ask why you feel pursuing DPA breaches that have gone on for in excess of 10yrs are going to result in failure and leave me with costs akin to telephone numbers? I'm puzzled!

 

Figgy

[ploddertom]

Can I ask why you feel pursuing DPA breaches that have gone on for in excess of 10yrs are going to result in failure and leave me with costs akin to telephone numbers? I'm puzzled!

 

Figgy

 

You should really start a new thread for this as it distracts from the original - here's a link to start one http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=168

 

If you already have a CCJ & wish to challenge it then the reasons for doing so are quite narrow. DPA issues are a sepaprate entity and will not be entertained at a Set Aside hearing. Water bills like Council Tax are payable in full on 1 April each year unless on an arrangement or water meter. Reading what you have said so far will I believe result in failure and the Water Co will ask for & be awarded costs against you.

 

PT

[Figgydoody]

Hi Ploddertom,

 

Thanks for your comments.

 

I do not want to distract from the original thread, and will make the following my final comments on my situation.

 

There appears to be various misunderstandings about what I've said.....

 

Yes, there are CCJ's against both my wife and I, and yes, defences were submitted in time and I have cast iron proof of this.

 

I fully understand that the grounds for a set-aside are limited, and in addition to replying to the claim in time, I have other cogent arguments to put.

 

I did not raise the issue of DPA breaches as something that would be covered at a set-aside hearing. I stated that as part of the application notice seeking a set-aside of the judgment, I would seek permission to file a counterclaim, that will include DPA breaches, which is a different thing altogether.

 

I have done a fair amount of reading/research before joining the site, re DPA issues, and I find it a bit odd that I am being advised that failure beckons without any reasons being given as to why?

 

All of the data protection principles have been breached and I intend to hold them to account. I will say, when the conversation was had, the guy stated he had encountered complaints along similar lines, and wanted me to put a figure on their misdeeds!! The only reason I couldn't is because they haven't replied to a SAR request, so I don't know the extent of their unlawful behaviour, so it would have been stupid to do so. But essentially, he wanted to reach a financial agreement. If DPA breaches are irrelevant to them, why would the litigation dept want to settle?

 

Perhaps what I intend to do seems too radical for some reason or hasn't been understood fully.....all is know is, I have a right of action against them for innumerable DPA breaches, as well as numerous other things, and I haven't found in the DPA legal texts I'm reading anything that states pursuing them over DPA breaches will end in disaster!

 

I'll let you know when I'm successful!

 

Sorry to Jemjubs for getting into my issues on your thread!

 

Regards,

 

Figgy.

[wonkeydonkey]

Good luck

 

Wd

[Jemjubs]

I posted a few letters and asked for another SAR from Southern Water and left things on the back boiler whilst the cheques from them cleared.

 

As you know, they wanted to deduct the principle debt from the reimbursement that was due back to me as a result of being granted set aside and stay. I dug my heels in and insisted they should pay the full amount due to me and once it had cleared, it was up to me if and when I pay the principle amount.

 

I requested that my direct costs 2 x £80 court application fees and 2 x £10 SAR fees should be deducted from the total sum, as it was entirely their fault that the situation was wrongly taken to court in the first place.

 

They have now come back with a reply saying this is not acceptable as it should have been raised at the set aside hearing.

 

At the hearing, I presented the judge my costs on a paper document and asked the judge if the best way to pursue SW for my costs was separate civil action and he agreed this would be the case.

 

Any thoughts on this matter?

[old bill]

I posted a few letters and asked for another SAR from Southern Water and left things on the back boiler whilst the cheques from them cleared.

 

As you know, they wanted to deduct the principle debt from the reimbursement that was due back to me as a result of being granted set aside and stay. I dug my heels in and insisted they should pay the full amount due to me and once it had cleared, it was up to me if and when I pay the principle amount.

 

I requested that my direct costs 2 x £80 court application fees and 2 x £10 SAR fees should be deducted from the total sum, as it was entirely their fault that the situation was wrongly taken to court in the first place.

 

They have now come back with a reply saying this is not acceptable as it should have been raised at the set aside hearing.

 

At the hearing, I presented the judge my costs on a paper document and asked the judge if the best way to pursue SW for my costs was separate civil action and he agreed this would be the case.

 

Any thoughts on this matter?

 

If that's what the judge said, SW should like it or lump it. Did the judge include this as part of his adjudication? You are entitled to ask for a transcript of the hearing once the judge has signed off the proceedings.

[Jemjubs]

If that's what the judge said, SW should like it or lump it. Did the judge include this as part of his adjudication? You are entitled to ask for a transcript of the hearing once the judge has signed off the proceedings.

 

Thanks OB, I will ask for a transcript in the morning. At what point are the proceedings signed off?

[old bill]

An audio CD recording of the hearing is sent to a transcription company under contract to HMCTS who then type it up into manuscript form. Once this is returned to the court involved by the transcription company, the judge who presided over the hearing then signs the manuscript and this is then archived. Once the judge has signed the transcription, which is referred to as "Signing-Off the Proceedings", copies can then be provided to those requesting them. By all means speak to the court staff tomorrow morning. They should be able to tell you if the transcript is available, whether it is awaiting sign-off by the judge who presided over the hearing, or whether it is with the transcription company. Once you have a copy of the transcript, this will tell you what the judge ordered and you can then copy the relevant extract and send it to SW. They cannot argue with it. It is an official record of the proceedings. Hope this is helpful.

[wonkeydonkey]

or ....small claim with MOCL would do it..... along with claim to those costs also:-D

 

Did I hear you say the letter before action for SW is ready and awaiting a stamp

 

WD

[Jemjubs]

An audio CD recording of the hearing is sent to a transcription company under contract to HMCTS who then type it up into manuscript form. Once this is returned to the court involved by the transcription company, the judge who presided over the hearing then signs the manuscript and this is then archived. Once the judge has signed the transcription, which is referred to as "Signing-Off the Proceedings", copies can then be provided to those requesting them. By all means speak to the court staff tomorrow morning. They should be able to tell you if the transcript is available, whether it is awaiting sign-off by the judge who presided over the hearing, or whether it is with the transcription company. Once you have a copy of the transcript, this will tell you what the judge ordered and you can then copy the relevant extract and send it to SW. They cannot argue with it. It is an official record of the proceedings. Hope this is helpful.

 

That is really helpful thank you...... I will have to ring tomorrow morning, as I ran out of time today....

 

Also thank you to WD....... Also a very helpful reminder, just a shame that I couldn't get all these letters out before the postage went up