Sherforce Again PLEASE HELP !!!

[ploddertom]

Got to agree, it would appear that I have received all the mundane bills, final demands and statements but anything to do with court, legal action or the use of HCEO has never been received......... Has anyone else found this to be the case ???

 

Southern Water have said that they don't receive copies of court documents from Northampton and that is the reason that they didn't forward any documents or paperwork regarding the CCJ or Writ of Fi Fa.

 

I'm making interesting progress on things but I guess I should play my cards close to my chest at the moment, so watch this space !

 

SW are right in what they say about the Court docs. However it would be interesting to find what address & postcode they have put forward to the Court.

[ploddertom]

Have they passed the whole enforcement procedure from initial DCA type action to obtaining the CCJ to Sherfarce, who "may" for obvious reasons sit on paperwork until they have a debt of over £600?

 

Or am I just being cynical

 

Far be it for me to defend SF but in this case they are not guilty. Look further towards the Claimant for ensuring it gets to the magic £600 figure.

[brassnecked]

Far be it for me to defend SF but in this case they are not guilty. Look further towards the Claimant for ensuring it gets to the magic £600 figure.

 

Sorry yes PT the Water Co will add fees and their legal costs onto the judgment, to put it above the magic number

[Jemjubs]

Far be it for me to defend SF but in this case they are not guilty. Look further towards the Claimant for ensuring it gets to the magic £600 figure.

 

I would agree, whilst Sherforce load outrageous charges and fees on to a CCJ that I knew nothing about, they are just doing their job (as morally corrupt as it might be) it is Southern Water that have carried out deception (yes deception) no wonder they were fined £20.3 million for deceiving their customers in 2008.

 

 

Sorry yes PT the Water Co will add fees and their legal costs onto the judgment, to put it above the magic number

 

Surely not !!!

 

I am still trying to work out where they loaded it by £200.00 (surely they wouldn't be cheeky enough to charge you for their own SW solicitors letter on there automated SW letter-headed paper (which looks just like a bill) at £100.00 each would they) ? (I have asked) !!!

 

Had to laugh today....

 

Got the paperwork that I requested from SW and amongst the pdfs were two letters with pretty yellow and grey cog logos from Highdown Debt Recovery PO Box 4056, Worthing, West Sussex, BN13 3NX.

 

That postcode rings a bell........

 

Anyway, my wife who has a photographic memory, a lady who does the accounts and myself, have never seen this letterhead or heard of the company, so a little bemused, I read all the way down the page to the tiny writing at the very bottom.

 

 

It said..........

 

Highdown Debt Recovery is a trading name of Souther Water Services LTD Registered Office: Southern House, Yeoman Road, Worthing, BN13 3NX Registered in England No. 2366670"

 

 

Guess what? ...... we never had a copy of either of those or the High Court Writ pre-notification either !

Edited January 30, 2012 by Jemjubs

[ploddertom]

For clarification - HCEOs do not have to notify you they have a Writ nor do they notify they are going to attend. The first you usually know is when you get the knock at the door. The Claimant is also under no obligation to tell you they are taking further enforcement action once a CCJ is obtained and it goes unpaid.

 

PT

[brassnecked]

"It said..........

 

Highdown Debt Recovery is a trading name of Souther Water Services LTD Registered Office: Southern House, Yeoman Road, Worthing, BN13 3NX Registered in England No. 2366670"

 

 

Guess what? ...... we never had a copy of either of those or the High Court Writ pre-notification either !"

 

That's why I am cynical, in house DCA adds fees, kerching up to High Court IMHO

[Jemjubs]

For clarification - HCEOs do not have to notify you they have a Writ nor do they notify they are going to attend. The first you usually know is when you get the knock at the door. The Claimant is also under no obligation to tell you they are taking further enforcement action once a CCJ is obtained and it goes unpaid.

 

PT

 

Tell me about it not a lot of help when I didn't even get any court papers or notification of the CCJ.

 

It amazes me in this day and age that the court service just rely on standard post. Surely it is time that there should be at least two forms of contact to the alleged debtor when regarding solicitor letters, final demand, letters before court action and all court related correspondence?

 

All I have received from SW is back-dated copies of some rather dubious letters, (one not even on a letterhead) that I/we have certainly never seen and some rather convenient dates!

 

2 or three points of contact would ensure this type of problem never occurs.

 

SW stated that the only contact they had for me was my postal address, yet within a minute, I managed to get my telephone number off directory enquiries and also google searched my name + Kent and it came up with me as the first seven headings with email, address and telephone numbers.

 

Perhaps if they did a bit of research or knocked on the odd door, once in a while instead of tarring all their consumers with the same brush of being wilful debtors, they might get paid on time and in full !!!

 

EDF manage it, so why can't Southern Water?

[Jemjubs]

Well time for an update....

 

In late January I filled out two N244 forms for stay of write and set aside and paid the 2 x £80.00 fee which was taken from my account.

 

As I was going away for a week, I notified both Sherforce and SW that this had been done the previous week (I did check with the local court that they had received the paperwork from Northampton) and that they should wait to hear from the local court as it had been transferred and was being dealt with there.

 

When I returned, I got a date for the Set Aside and assumed that the Stay of Writ had been done at the same time.... How wrong I was !!!

 

I had another visit from Sherforce this week (the 2nd ever) and the costs and principle debt are now nearly £2800.00 on the original debt of £620.00. this is up £900.00 from the first visit. I asked why it had gone up so much and was told that this was to cover car impounding costs if I did not pay immediately. There was no recovery truck booked or anything but it was a simple choice of pay now or lose the car.

 

I checked with the local court by phone whilst the HCO was here and it would appear that either Northampton only forwarded the set aside N244 or that the local court did not notice the second N244 form for stay of writ. This they can fight out between themselves but I do want answers, as they had full payment and signed copies by email, fax and postal service !!!

 

I stand to be corrected but in the absence of a Stay of Writ the Sherforce HCO would have been entitled to take the car there and then!

 

I am again disgusted with SW over this, they knew stay of writ had been applied for, I have the paperwork, I have the proof of payment, yet they obviously sat on the knowledge that no stay of writ had been given by a judge due to an internal court error and then they authorised Sherforce to go for the kill without any communication whatsoever.

 

As you can guess, I am truly gutted but had no option but pay the demand for nearly £2800.00 there and then, as they new that I would apply to the court for an immediate stay of writ and they were clearly not going to let that happen!!

 

The HCO was helpful but firm and I have no problem with him personally, as he is just doing his job but for me, to get another phone call from my wife in tears was just not worth the hassle, upset and stress.

 

Anyway, I now have a court case (set aside) in early May and obviously my hope is that the judge believes me and the witnesses that state that we received no CCJ court papers before or after the hearing. We also did not receive letters from the in-house DCA at SW. if he goes with us, then the costs and fees will not apply.

 

I guess it would be wise for me to also dispute the costs as £900.00 per visit is not exactly fair, especially given the circumstances. I have also now lost over £1000.00 in loss of earnings from dealing with all this.... it is so unfair !!!!

 

Help and advice would be much appreciated please

[ploddertom]

I'm really sorry to hear this has happened. I appreciate this is easy for me to say as I have not had to face the troubles you have but:

1 - did it not occur to you there was no Order about the Stay

2 - in the absence of the Stay being served either on SW or SF then they will have assumed you did not go forward with this which will be why you had another visit

 

There may be some good that may have come out of it, if albeit an expensive mistake. have you sent off for a Subject Access Request to SF - it will be £10 well spent, they have 40 days in which to reply. If your Set Aside is granted then they have to repay all monies back to you so in my view I would wait to see what happens with the Hearing first.

 

PT

[Jemjubs]

Thanks PT

 

No it didn't occur to me that there was no Stay or Writ order, I had checked by email and phone that Northampton had sent the two N244 forms on to the local court and I checked 2 times by phone that the application had been received by the local court and then phoned again to check that they had been passed on to the judge...... Not a lot more I could have done really as we are always told that court paperwork does not go missing and that standard post is quite adequate.

 

There is a certain irony to the fact that the misplacement of the N244 'Stay of Writ' documents due to an internal error, does kind of substantiate my claim that court documents sometimes don't get sent out or received, as was with the case with our original CCJ from Northampton. Lets hope the judge views it the same way!

 

I asked SW for a SAR, as you advised and they have given me the everything I request including a complete transcript of my 30mins phone call to them when I first became aware of any debt after the first visit by the Sherforce HCEO, it makes very interesting reading and fully supports all that I have said in a way that is non scripted and non edited unlike emails.

 

I have not asked Sherforce for a SAR but will do, now you have advised it, any particular request on type of information???

 

Can I ask for copies of their communications with SW that concern me.... I guess not?

 

Regarding the court case itself, I guess I have to make disclosure of documents to SW at least two weeks before the case and also send a copy to the court. I also guess it would be good to attend with the two people that provided witness statements stating that they had never seen any of the disputed communications from SW or the original CCJ itself?

 

Thank you once again for your continued help and support.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Jemjubs

[Deadwood]

Sherforce have an associated solicitor's practice called Sherwins, The MD, senior partner and owner of both is Claire Sandbrook. It's possible that Sherwins are processing County Court claims and not impossible that paperwork is going "astray".

There is a requirement to issue a notice that a judgement is going to execution but no requirement for notice to enforce via Fi Fa although is a warrant of execution and an attempt to execute a requirement before allying for Fi Fa? and is it necessary to show how or why Fi Fa is necessary?

[brassnecked]

Sherforce have an associated solicitor's practice called Sherwins, The MD, senior partner and owner of both is Claire Sandbrook. It's possible that Sherwins are processing County Court claims and not impossible that paperwork is going "astray".

There is a requirement to issue a notice that a judgement is going to execution but no requirement for notice to enforce via Fi Fa although is a warrant of execution and an attempt to execute a requirement before allying for Fi Fa? and is it necessary to show how or why Fi Fa is necessary?

The problem would be proving that this was happening

[ploddertom]

Sherforce have an associated solicitor's practice called Sherwins, The MD, senior partner and owner of both is Claire Sandbrook. It's possible that Sherwins are processing County Court claims and not impossible that paperwork is going "astray".

There is a requirement to issue a notice that a judgement is going to execution but no requirement for notice to enforce via Fi Fa although is a warrant of execution and an attempt to execute a requirement before allying for Fi Fa? and is it necessary to show how or why Fi Fa is necessary?

 

It is a thought but in this case am 100% certain it would not have happened, so for once they are not to blame.

 

PT

[Jemjubs]

Hmmmm....... Interesting...... I paid my £5.00 and I got a copy of the case details from Northampton today.

 

To get to their magic figure of above £600.00 SW included the entire year bill for period ending 31/03/11

 

Strange, as the CCJ issue date was 2nd Dec 2010

 

So that means I am taken to court without my knowledge for a charges on a year with 4 months left to run.

 

I am sure it will be covered under some rule on the 1991 water industry act but even so, to take me to court on services I had not received isn't exactly playing cricket.

 

The dates on the case details are really useful for my defence, as there is a very good reason why the postal service may have been disrupted !!!

 

That aside, it amazes me that this is the nearest I have come to finding anything thats looks like original court papers, as Southern Water say they don't keep them and Northampton say the file has been transferred to the local court.... Why can't I obtain the standard County Court papers that you would normally be issued with ???

[brassnecked]

I beleive the bill is payable in advance, and due 1st April, so installments aren't actually enshrined in law, others will know more, but it is accepted practice to seek liability for the whole year including the months in advance, which actually are arrears It certainly needs clarification, as if one had a water meter, they could not seek liability for estimated use? but could for sewarage. Wait a mo i think like the elaectricity and gas companies they actually take enforcement action for ESTIMATED BILLS.

[Jemjubs]

Does anyone know if disclosure rules would apply for the 'set aside' court hearing?

 

If so, then I guess I would have to send a full set of papers, witness statements and evidence to SW and the court at least a couple of weeks before the hearing.

[wonkeydonkey]

Hi Jembubs

 

Although it is not compulsory to comply with the disclosure rules for a set aside it is expected you do so. It is IMO always better to send SW and the Court a copy of all the documents you wish to rely on at the hearing, mainly due to the fact they will simply ask the Court to adjourn in order to give them time for consideration to your evidence/statement of case if they have not had sight of them previously.

 

WD

Edited March 18, 2012 by wonkeydonkey

[Jemjubs]

Hi Jembubs

 

Although it is not compulsory to comply with the disclosure rules for a set aside it is expected you do so. It is IMO always better to send SW and the Court a copy of all the documents you wish to rely on at the hearing, mainly due to the fact they will simply ask the Court to adjourn in order to give them time for consideration to your evidence/statement of case if they have not had sight of them previously.

 

WD

 

Thank you WD

[Jemjubs]

Thank you WD

 

Got the Sherforce and SW SAR's through......Will give both companies their due, they didn't delay on getting them out..... Should make exciting reading this weekend....

[wonkeydonkey]

Help available f you have need for help deciphering anything...of course Sherforce do have a legal obligation to provide a key to any abbreviations:-)

 

WD

[Jemjubs]

Help available f you have need for help deciphering anything...of course Sherforce do have a legal obligation to provide a key to any abbreviations:-)

 

WD

 

 

Yes please....

 

I will need an email address and I could also send on a copy of that rather interestingly dated and adapted document I was talking about

[wonkeydonkey]

I have sent PM with email details.

 

WD

[Jemjubs]

I have sent PM with email details.

 

WD

 

Sent

[Jemjubs]

I have been busy doing the final paperwork for this

 

What really frustrates me, is that I have now spent 106 man hours sorting this all out instead of spending the time working and earning money.....

[Jemjubs]

UPDATE

 

Set Aside.......... Granted

 

Stay of Writ.... Granted

 

Well I would like to say a big thank you to Ploddertom, Wonkeydonkey and others who gave me help with regards to this matter, as a result of information unveiled in the SAR from Southern Water that was picked up on by the judge, he was able to ask Southern Water if they wished to still oppose the applications for Set Aside and Stay of Writ....... A rather embarrassed SW solicitor (due to not being furnished with the facts by her own litigation team) had to concede that they would no longer oppose

 

£2750.00 should be heading back my way and Southern Water will have to pay Sherforce out of their own pocket (or to be precise out of the consumers pocket)

 

Very hard going and cost me £2900.00 in loss of earnings to pursue this, I was relieved with the outcome but no big smiles as this for me, as this is just the start of the battle.

 

I will now be pursuing civil action against SW for my costs and distress and also follow up on a complaint that I made regarding the issuing of the Writ FiFa that may end up in a disciplinary hearing or better still criminal proceedings against an employee.

 

Now to formally register my complaint with CCWater and alert media watchdogs amongst others

Edited May 4, 2012 by Jemjubs