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:violin:

 

Dear Sirs

 

 

Ref: Penalty Charge Notice................... .... .......................

 

I acknowledge receipt of the said PCN and do challenge it on the basis that it does not comply with Section 4(8)(a)(i) of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 and/or Part II 4(3)(a) of the London Local Authorities Act 1996 in that it does not establish the grounds of the alleged contravention since the location as given i.e. Broad Lane is wholly unhelpful to me and, therefore, non-compliant with the law. This is too inexact to establish the alleged contravention and I rely upon several cases heard at PATAS including that of Adamou v Haringey, Case No. 2060381000 and Reeve v Haringey, Case No. 2060376463. I further note that your website does not cite all the four grounds on which to appeal this contravention thereby constituting a procedural impropriety which, although not one of the grounds of appeal, is nevertheless of sufficient importance as to cause me prejudice by not representing fully my legal rights to challenge the PCN.

 

Also, the PCN is further defective as per this statement: "TFL may disregard representations received 28 days after the Enforcement Notice has been served."

 

The London Local Authorities Act 1996 @ Schedule 1(2)© states otherwise:

 

(3)The council may disregard any such representations which are received by them after the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the penalty charge notice or enforcement notice in question was served.

 

I believe this mis-statement of the time period in which to make representations against an Enforcement Notice makes it further null and void. See Melnikova v Enfield Case No: 2100433329 in which the adjudicator stated:

 

All the legislation pertaining to decriminalised traffic enforcement is based around a sequence of actions. Each action must be completed within a specified time limit otherwise there are consequences. Any variation to one of these time limits has a knock-on effect on the subsequent actions and it effectively destroys the overall framework of the legislation. For reasons of coherence and consistency individual local authorities cannot be permitted to vary time limits

Therefore, I require you to cancel the Penalty Charge Notice forthwith and with immediate effect. Should this not be possible, I require all photographic evidence, video evidence and a complete copy of the relevant Traffic Regulation Order, with all amendments and schedules by pdf at the earliest opportunity. I would also advise you that, should this matter escalate to PATAS, in my view this would be entirely the Council's responsibility for which I would be claiming costs.

 

Thank you.

 

Yours faithfully

Edited by HYMN AND MI
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  • 3 weeks later...
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Bump! Is this any use?:

The Bus Lane Enforcement Camera Handbook published by the Home Office.

 

This states as an “operational requirement” in item 5.1.2 that:

“Every image of the offence shall show, in addition to the offending vehicle, in the order given: the date in days, month, and year, the time in hours, minutes, and seconds, the day of the week, location and frame count from the beginning of the recording. The data shall be imprinted on the image or included in the violation record at the time the offence is recorded.”

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  • 1 month later...

Hi - sorry to keep bumping an old thread but I've been done by the same Kidbrooke Park Road bus lane.

 

I don't live anywhere near this area and was travelling in a hire van to collect some ebay wardrobes following a sat nav. I didn't see any signage on the approach to the bus lane that I could not go down that down in a short wheel base transit van. It was only once I got to the offending bollards that I had to make a decision and veered into the bus lane to avoid hitting the central island. On looking at the pictures and googling the dimensions of the van, I would not have fit down the right hand side of the road anyway.

 

The other annoying part is that the pcn was issued to the hire van company who paid the fine on my behalf (without telling me) with the credit card I used to make the hire booking. They included a copy of my original hire agreement which does not state anywhere that they will pay a fine using my card.

 

Two questions then... Can I still appeal this pcn given that they will most likely use the fact that it has been paid as acceptance of guilt...? Do I have grounds for complaint against the hire van company as had they told me they had received this pcn, I could've appealed it at the informal stages which might have given me more of a chance to get this thrown out. Even if my appeal is now successful, the hire van company have charged me an admin fee of £30 +VAT for the privilege of charging my card. I would obviously like to recover this cost too.

 

Any held is appreciated as I can see that most people are contesting their pcn's prior to paying up.

 

photo.jpg

 

photo.jpg

Edited by maxine.bell
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Wish I could help you there, as I did exactly the same thing (diverting INTO bus lane), for similar reasons - thought I might be on wrong side of road if I went for the other option. When I went back to check (this was in 2010 but I bet nothing has changed), there were definitely no advance warning signs. I got ticket cancelled as a 'goodwill gesture'. I do hope you win your battle with the hire company but I don't know the legal ins and outs. I can't see how their paying can be taken as an admission of guilt from you, but I'm no lawyer. Good luck with it.

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Further to previous posts re Broad Lane bus lane PCN

On 29 March I received an enforcement notice dated 28 March, demanding £130. I telephoned on 29 March to ask how this could have been sent when I had still had no reply to my representations. The person I spoke to said that my email of 7 March had not yet been processed, and I should ignore the enforcement notice pending consideration of the reps.

I then received a rejection letter (17 April) re my representations, see link below. I rang to ask why they were now saying I must pay £130 when reps were within 2 weeks and notice was issued on 24 February, not 19 February as their rejection letter says. Person I spoke to said quite right and she would take £65 in full and final payment if I paid now. I said no thank you, not yet decided what to do re rejection. She said she would get writer of letter to resend it with correct date and amount, was emailing him to that effect.

 

The letter dated 17 April has finally told me where Broad Lane is ('in the Haringey area N15'). Not terribly helpful re precise location of alleged contravention. And they have not sent any of the stuff I said I required. (In reps I said I required notice to be cancelled “Failing that, I require all photographic and video evidence, evidence of approval and maintenance of the camera, and a complete copy of the relevant Traffic Regulation Order, with all amendments and schedules, by pdf at the earliest opportunity.”)

 

http://www.4shared.com/office/j01GkydU/reps_rejection_170412_2.html

I still haven’t received the amended letter with correct dates and amount.

It gets worse. I then received a rather badly written and word-processed letter dated 20 April (three days after my representations were formally rejected). This letter also wrongly stated date and time of issue of notice as 19 February. It referred to my letter of 30 March (there was none) and said that the enforcement notice had been issued ‘as no representation was received’. I was offered as a ‘gesture of goodwill’ the opportunity to pay the reduced amount of £65 provided I coughed up by 4 May, and warned that ‘such leniency may not be practised in the future’. I haven’t got time or energy to scan and upload this letter at moment as want to get a post up soon, but will do it if anyone wants to see it.

I rang TfL again. Told them this was a complete mess. How could I receive a letter rejecting my representations followed by another, with a later date, that told me I had made no representations?! A protracted conversation ensued, which began with the person I spoke to responding as if she thought the 20 April letter was related to the 17 April one, when I tried to point out that it seemed to relate to my telephone call of 29 March (insofar as it meaningfully related to anything). In the end she told me she understood my frustration. But the formal rejection could not be resent (though previous person had said it could be), so I must write in about it (she confirmed this included emailing). And that if I appealed I could cite all this in grounds for appeal. She said she didn’t deal with reps so couldn’t answer qs about why the info I had asked for had not been sent, or even referred to, in the rejection. She told me the failure to respond to reps earlier was because my email had not been scanned onto the system. She also confirmed that all calls were indeed recorded.

I was very much starting to feel that I could not face prolonging this battle esp if doing so were to cost me a further £65. I am sure TFL are lying through teeth (as with Kidbroke) re lawfulness of signage etc, but am not going back to check, esp as I don't want another ticket. Was minded just to give up grudgingly. But am now so appalled by their incompetence that I can’t help feeling that I want to expose it, and that an adjudicator might feel moderately appalled as well.

Advice would be appreciated.

(HYMN AND MI - I have tried to PM you but it does not seem possible now to do so.)

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  • 2 weeks later...

In the light of all the mess TfL made of my representations (see previous long post), and of the grounds set out in my representations - mainly re imprecise location, and their failure to supply the information I asked for in the reps, I decided what the hell, I wouldn't just cough up but would appeal.

 

Looking at the grounds of appeal, I am not sure I actually meet any of them. :???: I was the owner, I was in control of the vehicle, and the police are not taking action. Which leaves me with the 'no breach' ground. I have to accept I probably was in the bus lane, but am not able to say whether the restrictions were properly signed, because I still don't know where the alleged contravention is supposed to have happened, and have not got the resources to go back and look, esp as I fear another ticket on the way! I can't believe the restrictions were properly signed, given that I and my passenger were v aware of need to be vigilant and v much on the lookout. Do I have the right to ask TfL for things like a diagram showing positions of all signs, together with photos of the signs? Or does the 'imprecise location' invalidate the notice and does the invalid notice invalidate the breach? HELP!

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  • 1 month later...

Hi if anyone is still reading this. I've just got a PCN for Kidbrooke Park road. I'm about to make representations- can anyone tell me if they had any luck with the 'vague locus' point i.e. that there are 3 cameras along this road?

 

Also, the two photos on the PCN are possibly a ground for complaint- the first showing my numberplate is timed at 21.25.00, but the second (showing a vague black car which I can't identify as me) is timed earlier at 21.24.55. Therefore the one identifying my car isn't in the bus lane at the time. Can I use this or at least demand they provide a shot which shows my car (identifiable) in the bus lane?

 

Many thanks

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Hi if anyone is still reading this. I've just got a PCN for Kidbrooke Park road. I'm about to make representations- can anyone tell me if they had any luck with the 'vague locus' point i.e. that there are 3 cameras along this road?

 

Also, the two photos on the PCN are possibly a ground for complaint- the first showing my numberplate is timed at 21.25.00, but the second (showing a vague black car which I can't identify as me) is timed earlier at 21.24.55. Therefore the one identifying my car isn't in the bus lane at the time. Can I use this or at least demand they provide a shot which shows my car (identifiable) in the bus lane?

 

Many thanks

 

To really get good advice, you should start your own thread. What area are we talking about? Also can you post up the PCN showing the images on a new thread please.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

 

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I think those of us who did succeed threw everything including vague locus into our reps, but I suspect the strongest argument is about the complete absence of advance warning signs, which I noticed on a (rare) recent return to that road are still conspicuous by absence. I think road markings may be wrong too. And I can see no reason why you shouldn't ask for a shot showing your car in the bus lane, but if they do provide this, that's not enough to sink your case. If you have a chance to go back and take photos and re-check re warning signs, I don't think they'll want the adjudicator to see all that. Esp when they are no doubt asserting (or they will) that all the signage etc is lawful. It ain't.

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I have just received a letter from TFL in response to an appeal against Kidbrooke Rd (Northbound) Bus Lane.My appeal has been successful. The grounds for appeal was mainly that I felt signage was poor,as I entered lane without realizing it was there. I referred to the facts regarding the northbound Bus Lane catching out ten times more drivers than the southbound Bus Lane, as overall traffic numbers are roughly the same,this must be due to signage. I quoted figures given out in a information request, by TFL themselves, regarding the number of fines given out. I also pointed out that I had nothing to gain from using the Bus Lane at 9pm! so why would I drive in it. I also reminded them that judges are also drivers, plus was is in the publics interest to continue with this? as it is public money after all!

 

as usual they would not accept my representations, but as a gesture of goodwill quashed the PCN.

Is this common sense prevailing?

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I have just received a letter from TFL in response to an appeal against Kidbrooke Rd (Northbound) Bus Lane.My appeal has been successful. The grounds for appeal was mainly that I felt signage was poor,as I entered lane without realizing it was there. I referred to the facts regarding the northbound Bus Lane catching out ten times more drivers than the southbound Bus Lane, as overall traffic numbers are roughly the same,this must be due to signage. I quoted figures given out in a information request, by TFL themselves, regarding the number of fines given out. I also pointed out that I had nothing to gain from using the Bus Lane at 9pm! so why would I drive in it. I also reminded them that judges are also drivers, plus was is in the publics interest to continue with this? as it is public money after all!

 

as usual they would not accept my representations, but as a gesture of goodwill quashed the PCN.

Is this common sense prevailing?

 

If you are talking about here; https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Kidbrooke+Park+Road,+London&hl=en&ll=51.462885,0.02841&spn=0.03663,0.090895&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=8.895518,23.269043&oq=Kidbrooke+Road&hnear=Kidbrooke+Park+Rd,+London,+United+Kingdom&t=m&z=14&layer=c&cbll=51.462983,0.028095&panoid=t6n75faqovSfei7prDQo3Q&cbp=12,285.07,,0,-4.16

 

in my opinion is is non-compliant because there is no advanced warning of the bus lane prior to the junction and the sign should be right at the start of the lane where in fact it is at least 15 yards into it.

 

Or if it was here; https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Kidbrooke+Park+Road,+London&hl=en&ll=51.45882,0.02635&spn=0.036633,0.090895&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=8.895518,23.269043&oq=Kidbrooke+Road&hnear=Kidbrooke+Park+Rd,+London,+United+Kingdom&t=m&z=14&layer=c&cbll=51.459141,0.02632&panoid=37-B2NnFBRhrJK54YrW-0g&cbp=12,21.58,,0,0

 

again there is no advance sign and the'deflection' arrow is too close to the start of the lane.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

Edited by sailor sam

 

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no, sorry. The Bus Lane in quetion is in Kidbrooke Park road,at the junction with Weigall road. I was travelling north on Kidbrooke park road and failed to see the warning signs.

 

That is covered in my second link in my above post.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

 

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  • 2 months later...

I have the same problem as the first and several other posters. I received a PCN after driving on the 'bus lane' at kidbrooke park.

I wasn't aware that there were so many complaints about this 'bus lane' so in order not to get into trouble I paid the fine they issued me. I couldn't stop thinking about how unfair the fine was so I decided to look for it online and it lead me here. Would I be able to appeal my case after having paid the fine?

 

This was my situation; I was driving at around 10pm in this area for the first time, so of course I was relying on my Sat Nav. I turned onto the road and bore left as it told me to do, and all of a sudden I noticed I was in a 'bus lane'! I wanted to stop and correct myself but as soon as I'd noticed I was in the lane, I was out of it again! I had absolutely no warning of the lane apart from seeing the writing on the road as I was going over it, and I had no time to correct myself once I realised I was in the lane, because it's so short.

It's ridiculous that the council has gotten away with this for so many years and after so many complaints!

Does anyone think I am able to appeal or is it too late? In which case does anyone know how we can voice our concern and dismay at this situation that so many people seem to be getting into? (And get something done about it!)

 

Any and all comments and help are appreciated, thank you for your time.

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  • 2 weeks later...
If you are talking about here; https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Kidbrooke+Park+Road,+London&hl=en&ll=51.462885,0.02841&spn=0.03663,0.090895&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=8.895518,23.269043&oq=Kidbrooke+Road&hnear=Kidbrooke+Park+Rd,+London,+United+Kingdom&t=m&z=14&layer=c&cbll=51.462983,0.028095&panoid=t6n75faqovSfei7prDQo3Q&cbp=12,285.07,,0,-4.16

 

in my opinion is is non-compliant because there is no advanced warning of the bus lane prior to the junction and the sign should be right at the start of the lane where in fact it is at least 15 yards into it.

 

Or if it was here; https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Kidbrooke+Park+Road,+London&hl=en&ll=51.45882,0.02635&spn=0.036633,0.090895&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=8.895518,23.269043&oq=Kidbrooke+Road&hnear=Kidbrooke+Park+Rd,+London,+United+Kingdom&t=m&z=14&layer=c&cbll=51.459141,0.02632&panoid=37-B2NnFBRhrJK54YrW-0g&cbp=12,21.58,,0,0

 

again there is no advance sign and the'deflection' arrow is too close to the start of the lane.

 

******

Wow, they are terrible! Of course TFL/councils are just collecting revenue & will stiff any motorist. I think anyone caught here should go through the whole process to the independent adjudicator. It's a lot of stress though. I managed to get out of one when I proved I could not have passed an hours of operation sign. The guys who run the fines are just rubber stampers, it's hard to get anywhere without going through the whole process & relevant case law.

 

The reason that they stop pursuing is so that they don't have to change the signs if they go to court/adjudicator and lose, thereby catching more unsuspecting drivers who give up. It's sickening eh?

Edited by TFL is HELL
Clarity
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  • 1 year later...

A big thank you to Bernie_the_Bolt.

 

A plagiarized copy of his appeal letter did the trick again. No admission of wrong doing by TfL but as a gesture of goodwill and in light of not having made representation before, the penalty notice has been cancelled!

 

Whilst TFL claim the road signs are compliant, they make no reference to the road markings which Bernie maintains are wrong. He successfully made this argument in 2007 and yet TfL still issue PCNs for this location.

 

And the good news is that they can use any cash extorted to install more and better cameras to extort yet more cash from yet more motorists in more dubious ways!

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  • 2 months later...
copy and paste the e-mail text straight into here maybe?

 

Please don't put your personal email on this thread. Personal contact is not encouraged here, nor needed, and the address will be removed if it's posted. Please keep comments on thread.

 

HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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copy and paste the e-mail text straight into here maybe?

 

Please don't put your personal email on this thread. Personal contact is not encouraged here, nor needed, and the address will be removed if it's posted. Please keep comments on thread.

 

HB

 

Honeybee I didn't suggest davidproctor2013 post personal details, I said he should post just the text of the message which shouldn't contain any personal info (and if it did I am sure he would delete it out)

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  • 5 months later...

Just to bring this up to date: I have heard today that tfl are persuaded to cancel the PCN they issued in respect of my encroachment into this silly 'bus lane' a few weeks ago, using a re-plagiarised version of the appeal letters previously quoted. Once again they reckon their signage is fine and I'm only being let off because I've "never made a previous representation".

 

I won't quote all 5 pages of my letter here unless anybody wants me to as you'll have read most of it earlier in this thread.

 

But the simple message still is: don't hesitate to appeal if you are similarly caught out by this money-making [problem]!

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  • 1 month later...

As requested, herewith the text of my successful appeal letter:

 

Transport for London

PO Box 194,

Sheffield S98 1LZ

23 April 2014

Dear Sirs,

 

 

Notice of Representation against Penalty Charge Notice: GT57088701

 

 

I refer to your Notice dated 15th April 2014 regarding the alleged offence of 'being in a bus lane that is in Kidbrooke Park Road', on the 9 April at 17:06 hrs and wish to make representations regarding the alleged contravention, as follows:

 

 

Firstly, I would have preferred to have dealt with this online but your site disputed my Vehicle Registration Mark against the PCN number. Fundamentally therefore, if the PCN cannot be referenced to my vehicle, this contravention allegation can surely not be further pursued.

 

 

However, there are many other reasons as to why I think this Notice is unjustified.

 

 

Although I have used this road on a couple of occasions, if my recollections serve me correctly I have never before mistakenly used the left hand lane of this width restriction and I believe on this particular occasion only did so on account of following another vehicle immediately in front of me. Whilst I appreciate that this cannot be any defence in itself, it does mean that I was not able to see the 'BUS LANE' road marking until I was immediately upon it, at which point it was not sensible nor maybe even possible to deviate into the right-hand lane of the width-restriction.

 

 

Furthermore, as others have pointed out, for there to be a breach of the bus lane order or regulation the restrictions provided for in that bus lane order or regulation must be adequately and/or lawfully signed. Failure adequately and/or lawfully to sign the restrictions means that no breach of the order or regulation has taken place.

 

My grounds for claiming that the 'Bus Lane' is not adequately and/or lawfully signed are as follows:

 

1) As per Traffic Signs Manual, Chapter 3, Section 15.9:

"Advance indication of a with-flow bus lane is provided by the sign to diagram 958. Where the speed limit is 20 mph or 30 mph, the sign should be sited 30m in advance of the lead-in taper formed by the road marking to diagram 1010, with a minimum clear visibility distance of 45m. Where the speed limit is 40 mph, the sign should be sited 45m in advance of the taper with a minimum clear visibility distance of 60m."

 

 

The 30m advance traffic sign with a clear visibility distance of 45m does not exist.

 

2) As per Chapter 5 of Traffic Signs Manual

A bus lane should be commenced by a diagonal taper in the form of a dashed line approximately 30m long to give drivers time to change lane.

 

 

There is no such taper marked in accordance with the manual so effectively no reasonable distance is allowed for motorists to change lane even if it were otherwise safe so to do.

 

3) As per Chapter 5 of the Traffic Signs Manual states in paragraph 17.7

“Deflection arrows to diagram 1014 should be placed 15m and 30m upstream of the start of the taper. The arrows should be 4.5m long for speed limits up to 40 mph, 6m for 50 or 60 mph, and 9m for 70 mph.”

 

No such deflection arrows are placed in the specified positions.

 

Non-compliance because TFL have positioned this width-restriction too close to a side road (in this case Weigall Road) and/or couldn't be bothered to figure out a compliant layout is not acceptable if this results in penalties for otherwise innocent motorists.

 

 

In addition, as regards the Notice itself, as per Item 5.1.2. of the The Bus Lane Enforcement Camera Handbook

It is stated as an “operational requirement” that: “Every image of the offence shall show, in addition to the offending vehicle, in the order given: the date in days, month, and year, the time in hours, minutes, and seconds, the day of the week, location and frame count from the beginning of the recording. The data shall be imprinted on the image or included in the violation record at the time the offence is recorded.”

 

Further the stills do not conform to the requirement in the Code of Practice on CCTV Enforcement (item 2.5.24) that “each still image will be given a unique serial number” as none is shown.

 

 

Thus the images do not show all the required data and do not show it in the order given.

 

Only “approved devices” can be used for CCTV enforcement. The failure to show the correct information and in the correct order must mean that the device used was not approved and therefore not lawful and the images are inadmissible to show any contravention or alleged contravention. The failure of the PCN to show lawful images renders it void and therefore there is no evidence of a breach of the bus lane order or regulation.

 

 

REQUEST FOR INFORMATION:

Should these representations be rejected then please treat this as a request under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 for the following documents:

 

a) A copy of the bus lane order or regulation giving effect to the Bus Lane.

 

b) A copy of the Safety Audit for this road layout.

 

c) A copy of the engineer’s scale diagrams showing the layout of this Bus Lane, the road markings and the signage (including warnings of camera enforcement).

 

d) Copies of any approvals of deviations of signage from the TSRGD 2002.

 

e) Logs of maintenance visits verifying existence and condition of the signs.

 

f) Certification of type approval of the CCTV device.

 

g) Copies of the still images showing all the required information in the correct order.

 

h) The number of PCNs issued by TFL in respect of this location.

 

i) The number of PCNs issued by TFL in respect of this location and cancelled by you following informal challenges.

 

j)The number of PCNs issued by TFL in respect of this location and cancelled by you following formal appeal to you.

 

k) The number of PCNs issued by TFL in respect of this location and cancelled following appeal to a PATAS adjudicator.

 

 

l) The action you have taken following the decision made in PATAS Case Ref: 2120305842 when the Adjudicator confirmed he was satisfied that this Bus Lane was not marked in accordance with legal requirements and, thus, the PCN the subject of that reference was therefore unenforceable.

 

m) The number of PCNs issued by TFL in respect of this location and not pursued by you for any other reason.

 

n) The total penalty revenue raised by TFL at this location since 30-07-2008 when this road was reported by BBC to be up for review as one of the 10 most confusing roads managed by TFL.

 

 

o) The action you have taken, if any, following on from the afore-mentioned review of this road and, in particular, this location.

 

 

I look forward to hearing from you and trust that you will be prepared to withdraw this Penalty Charge Notice.

 

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

Trust this might be helpful to others:sad:

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