Train Fare Evasion

[Cbirch182]

Classic inspector terminology there - Got done? Got shafted I think is the word you are looking for.

 

Perhaps you can explain how the system is working correctly when someone I know of bunked a train to London for two years without any ticket at all and got caught by an inspector but then let off with a £30 fine because a member of his/her family knew the person who worked for the TOC.

 

And as for breaking the law...I contravened a train bye law hardly the crime the century - I'm over it

[Wriggler7]

With all systems of 'justice' there will be cases where onlookers will gasp at the final outcome, it is one of the aspects of 'law and order' that keeps so many people watching what goes on.

 

How comes we are imposing a 'no fly' zone against Col Gaddafi and not against the rebels who are seeking to overthrow him? How comes we are not helping protestors in Bahrain? I do not know the answers, but I do know that at every level there will be inconsistencies which simply do not seem fair.

 

With all cases where a prosecuting authority starts an action against someone, the only issues to contemplate are 'did the accused do that which they are accused of doing', and 'what should the final outcome be'. A good defence will look for any and every angle which can be exploited to reduce that outcome.

[Maxwell TM]

Guards carry ticket machines primarily to take fares from passengers who board at unmanned stations with no/ limited ticket issuing facilities; not as a convenience for those who 'forget' or who refuse to wait for a ticket. Guards are primarily occupied with safety-critical dispatch duties. Thus, ticket issue for a guard will always come after safety, which is why they are not always able to process all ticket demands as thoroughly as could be wished and why, in my case at least, we are so happy to get a helping hand from our RPI colleagues.

 

RPIs target ticket-less travel hotspots, known offenders and those behaving suspiciously. Most are consummate body language experts and are extremely knowledgeable on current evasion trends and tactics. This provides quite enough 'activity' for their line managers to be more than satisfied with productivity, without the need for any 'dirty tricks' campaigns.

[Conniff]

Most are consummate body language experts and are extremely knowledgeable on current evasion trends and tactics. This provides quite enough 'activity' for their line managers to be more than satisfied with productivity, without the need for any 'dirty tricks' campaigns.

 

What a total load of tosh.

 

I was ripped of by the railways price on tickets. I could have 'flown' to Paris for half the price. If ticket prices were fair there would be no need for anyone to try and avoid.

[Grotesque]

What a total load of tosh.

 

I was ripped of by the railways price on tickets. I could have 'flown' to Paris for half the price. If ticket prices were fair there would be no need for anyone to try and avoid.

 

The price of tickets today is a political issue* and you will find many if not all posters here probably agree with you on that.

But replying to a very point-specific post about an RPI's ability to notice body-language and operate accordingly with a general rant against ticket prices is unhelpful and irrelevant.

 

* Airlines pay no VAT/Duty on fuel; no VAT on the planes themselves; charge no VAT on tickets; yet can claim VAT back. If they got charged the same, pro rata, as Train Operating Companies (who have to pay all of the above), then the figures would be VERY different. I doubt you'd be able to fly to the end of the street without a re-mortgage!

[Maxwell TM]

In a very limited piece of research, if found that in 1890, the cost of a weekly working mans' return ticket from Walthamstow to Liverpool St was 10d per week, or roughly 3% of the average weekly wage. In 2011, the weekly season is £20.10 or very roughly 5% of the average weekly wage. I have no wish to be Londoncentric here, but the figures do provide a reasonable average.

 

Thus rail fares have increased in relation to earnings, (and IMO, are far too high). However, even 111 years ago and with rail fares much cheaper in real terms, fraudulent travel was enough of a concern to be targeted by the 1889 Regulation of Railways Act.

 

I am the first to agree that statistics can be manipulated to show almost any desired result, but a look around the world will show marked incidences of fraudulent travel, no matter how reasonable the fare. In India, where 2nd class unreserved travel is extremely cheap, even by local standards. ticket-less travel is considered such a problem that major rail stations have their own fare dodgers' courts.

 

As such, I would argue that ticket-less travel appears to be less a product of higher prices than good old human nature.

 

 

And lastly, I would argue that a policeman's 'instinct,' is at least in part, due to knowledge of body language. As this ' instinct' seems to be shared by many RPIs, perhaps it is not unreasonable to claim that they are also experts in the field. Even from my perspective, it is not too difficult to spot a guilty 'scrote' just by their actions.

Edited March 23, 2011 by silverfox1961
removed non relevant content

[Wriggler7]

I have been playing with minor crime for a long time. It is incredibly rare to find someone who 'needs' to commit crime. Most that I have met do it out of one kind or another of arrogance and disregard for the rights of others. In my part of the world, by volume if not by value, 'most' fare evaders come from that group who do not have jobs to get to, and are truthfully only travelling one or two stops. They could have walked.

 

When we step up a notch, many others could have got up a minute earlier, or waited a minute longer.

 

I am not sure about ticket inspectors being consumate body language experts, but you hardly need to be an expert to guess that the guy who suddenly, when asked for a ticket, needs to dive into the nearest khazi, doesn't have a valid ticket.

 

Whenever a crime is committed, there are victims. As I pay tax, which subsidises amongst other things railways, I am a victim. I might take a stance to assist alleged offenders, but sometimes it is through gritted teeth.

[RPI]

I think it's the daily mail maxwell.

[Wriggler7]

The purpose of these posts varies according to the needs of the 'OP'. In the main, this area of posts tends to be about a person who has not been squeeky clean in the fare paying habit, and is looking for suggestions (I make a habit of avoiding the word 'advice') for how to deal with the issue.

 

I know that I am very good at meandering away from the germaine points at issue, but we should all avoid personal and derogatory comments. They add nothing to the ebb and flow of the argument.

 

I know my station, the bank sends me a letter every month to remind me. I think my station may well be Tilbury Low Street, or possibly Purfleet (Rifle Ranges).

[Wriggler7]

On the subject of advice:

 

Today, my opinion was asked on a letter from an organisation which purports to be trying to correct public servant's in their alleged abuse of powers. It used a phrase which was new to me, anyone care to tell me what an 'engine of fraud' is? It quoted some long forgotten 'bill of rights'.

 

If you do need advice, a forum such as this will give you some insights upon which you may feel able to better respond to some issues. Some posters in these forums (should that be 'fora'?) are very knowlegdable, having spent time on one side or the other of the 'industry', some have some personal experiences to share with you.

 

in any event, when you read 'advice', you need to use your own judgement as to how to make best use of that advice. And if the advisor quotes any law regarding railways which was written before Stephenson first ran his Rocket, treat it with extreme caution.

 

If my advice is 'wrong', remember, I shall still be in my office, whilst you, 'dear reader', may be the person in Pentonville.

[SRPO]

I've heard it used before in the SFO, it related to boiler rooms selling fake shares.

I dont have a definition for it tho......

[silverfox1961]

Thread temporarily closed for review

[silverfox1961]

Okay, I have had to remove some posts as they are not at all relevant to the OPs problem and insults will not be tolerated.

Any repetition will be moderated.

 

I also apologise to some users who's posts have also been moderated as they look decidedly odd with nothing to relate them to. I hope you all understand

 

Let's keep it civil

[Maxwell TM]

Aaargh! Nabbed by the forum rozzers

[Grotesque]

Good. I do not ask for, or require, the decency of a reply. As long as the moderators are moderated.

[Maxwell TM]

Good. I do not ask for, or require, the decency of a reply. As long as the moderators are moderated.

 

Excellent point. I think that moderation is generally well applied on these boards, but there will always be a cyber warrior or two lurking in the background and in the interests of fairness, radical and impartial surgery is sometimes required.

 

 

Apologies to all concerned if this topic has wandered off course.

 

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

[Draconian]

Excellent point. I think that moderation is generally well applied on these boards, but there will always be a cyber warrior or two lurking in the background and in the interests of fairness, radical and impartial surgery is sometimes required.

 

 

Apologies to all concerned if this topic has wandered off course.

 

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? [/Q

[Wriggler7]

Who guards the guards indeed. One of the strengths of the British legal system is that defence is allowed, and doubt goes in favour of the accused.

[Maxwell TM]

Who guards the guards indeed. One of the strengths of the British legal system is that defence is allowed, and doubt goes in favour of the accused.

 

An execrable pun on my part, but a reference to the fact that some sectors of the travelling public have an entrenched idea of what they consider to be reasonable treatment from rail staff, whilst their own behaviour can often fall far below standards they would consider acceptable if applied to them.

[Wriggler7]

Many years ago, I had a squint at proposals for pay and allowances for railway ticket office staff. The 'basket of comparative industries' was 'building societies'. A very clever chap from TSSA pointed out that abuse of rail staff is in a whole different league to abuse of building society staff. There seems to be a bizarre belief amongst some people that having a pop at the railman is fair game.

 

This is simply not true, and one thing that will garauntee prosecution by a railway is upsetting the staff. I did recently ask a member of staff who had upset him recently. Apparently, it would not be good form to prosecute the management.

 

I did ask a psychologist about 'rudeness to rail staff'. It follows the general press attitude to the business, which reinforces the idea that 'railways' and therefore, by default, railway staff, are incompetent. Then there is the issue that 'most' commuters are there under duress. They are travelling to jobs they hate, by railway because petrol is expensive and there is limited workplace parking, in other words, they did not choose 'the train' because it is wonderful, but because it is the least worse way to travel.

 

Passengers may feel that they 'lack control', when they surrender themselves to a train operator.

 

None of this excuses 'bad behaviour', but may explain it.

 

I do feel that train operators could do more to 'lighten the mood' of passengers. Perhaps not forcing us to walk past a festering pile of rotting food waste as we enter the station, or maybe by giving staff ticket machines that actually work would be a start. Then we might talk about 'ambience', I remember when my local line suddenly spent money on flower baskets. Perhaps a colour scheme that doesn't simply involve navy surplus paint, and maybe some gentle music. (I once suggested a string quartet in the entrance to Southend Central station, any of you who know the formely slightly grand entrance hall would understand that, unfortunately, the vandals destroyed the atmosphere there. That is the vandals who painted everything battleship grey and stuck a row of 'barriers' across the wonderful wooden floor that had survived two world wars un marked. Did I mention the stupid 'automatic doors'?)

 

Oops, the old boy is rambling again. Nurse will bring some tranquilisers soon.