Train Fare Evasion

[Cbirch182]

Hi, I was going about my daily commute to work which consists of a car journey to Wickford where I park my car and board a train to Brentwood. I have an annual season ticket/Gold card for travel between Wickford & Brentwood (Approximately £1,100). This morning, I decided to board the train (having a flat tyre) in my home tome of South Woodham Ferrers which runs to Wickford a couple of miles down the line. This route between these two stations is a non-penalty fare branch line as stated on the nationalexpress website and on the occasions where I use this line, I have always willingly purchased tickets from the friendly ticket men that patrol the carriages selling tickets without any problem-even getting a discount for showing my gold card. There IS a ticket office at the station which I'll admit was open, but as always as can be expected on a monday morning a long queue and with 1 train every hour I decided to board my train and but one en route to Wickford. I was then met by two Inspectors and two enforcement officers and as I couldn't produce a valid ticket I was facing a prosecution for fare evasion. This come as quite a shock as I have never had problems buying tickets onboard on the rare occasions I use the line and now I was being made out to look like a criminal for evading the fare. Luckily, I have some old tickets and bank statements to show that I have purchased tickets in the past which may help fight my case and prove my honesty. I'm now awaiting something in writing from the prosecuting company to see what the next step is, possibly a court summons or a heavy fine I suppose. In the meantime if anyone else could share their experience or offer advice I would be very interested to hear. Thank you.

[weather-cold]

Hi, I was going about my daily commute to work which consists of a car journey to Wickford where I park my car and board a train to Brentwood. I have an annual season ticket/Gold card for travel between Wickford & Brentwood (Approximately £1,100). This morning, I decided to board the train (having a flat tyre) in my home tome of South Woodham Ferrers which runs to Wickford a couple of miles down the line. This route between these two stations is a non-penalty fare branch line as stated on the nationalexpress website and on the occasions where I use this line, I have always willingly purchased tickets from the friendly ticket men that patrol the carriages selling tickets without any problem-even getting a discount for showing my gold card. There IS a ticket office at the station which I'll admit was open, but as always as can be expected on a monday morning a long queue and with 1 train every hour I decided to board my train and but one en route to Wickford. I was then met by two Inspectors and two enforcement officers and as I couldn't produce a valid ticket I was facing a prosecution for fare evasion. This come as quite a shock as I have never had problems buying tickets onboard on the rare occasions I use the line and now I was being made out to look like a criminal for evading the fare. Luckily, I have some old tickets and bank statements to show that I have purchased tickets in the past which may help fight my case and prove my honesty. I'm now awaiting something in writing from the prosecuting company to see what the next step is, possibly a court summons or a heavy fine I suppose. In the meantime if anyone else could share their experience or offer advice I would be very interested to hear. Thank you.

 

 

You need to fight your corner, once you recieve a letter, reply back defending yourself and apologising and offer to settle out of court, as i take it you dont want to find yourself being summoned etc, you may get away with a fine of £50 but in my scenario i had to pay 5x times as much, and i didnt mind as i didnt want to be labelled a criminal, especially as im a trainee lawyer.

[SRPO]

Did you ask to pay the fare due at the time?

[Cbirch182]

I don't see how one day they let me buy a ticket onboard, then another day I'm cautioned by law! They need to establish what constitutes fare evasion and stop moving the goal posts. I appreciate I didn't have a ticket before boarding the train, but why have ticket men walking through the train giving the option to buy onboard? Surely anyone who buys a ticket this way must be dodging the fares too? I fully intend to stand my ground and actually will actually quite enjoy disputing their case. However I will only go so far and don't want to end up in court. Thanks.

[Old-CodJA]

I understand your comment and sympathise with the apparent inconistency in some cases. It can be confusing and is often down to who makes the check, but it is not that point which will be tested in Court. The charge will be that you hadn't shown a valid ticket on demand as required. If a conductor / guard checks and you haven't got one, you may be given a chance to buy a ticket. If an inspector makes the check it is much more likely that a report will be made.

 

Your comments may be put in mitigation of course, but it will also depend on what you are charged with, whether it has any chance of success. If there is good evidence that you could not get one, then it may succeed.

 

If there were facilities to buy a ticket at the station before you boarded the train, you have a responsibility to use them and to pay your fare before travelling (The TOCs 'Charter' recognises that excessive queuing may be an acceptable reason, but times are laid down and on train staff made aware of difficulties via either pager or mobile phone. With CCTV at all stations, there is little value in claiming that there was an excessive wait if there wasn't.)

 

Staff making ticket checks are not obliged to ask for the fare and if they genuinely believe that the fare was at risk, may make a report to the rail company.

 

The argument that 'I didn't have time' so often put forward, always fails the test before the Magistrates in my experience. I've been in Court today and heard that response first hand once again. Mr X said he 'didn't intend not to pay, but there was a queue and he was in a hurry'. He had been charged with the strict liability matter of 'failing to show a valid ticket on demand' contrary to National Railways Byelaw 18.1 and was convicted. In delivering the verdict, the Chairman of the Bench reminded Mr X of the "need to get to the station with time to buy a ticket and if required to queue, then he must do so like everyone else"

 

He was fined £175, ordered to pay the fare and the prosecutor's costs and a £15.00 victim surcharge imposed on everyone who is fined by the Magistrates. A total of more than £300 when he could have caught a train 15 minutes later and paid less than a fiver for his ticket.

 

I have to say that personally, I don't think Mr X helped himself by coming over as particularly self-important, but nonetheless the Bench were clear in their interpretation of the legal position.

 

If you are charged with the more serious matter of 'intent to avoid payment of a fare' the rail company has to show that you could have bought a ticket and did not intend to do so if you were not asked to pay.

 

The most often quoted case relating to 'fare evasion' refers to the Appeal Court ruling by Lords Widgery, Park and Cumming-Bruce in 1977, which upheld the Magistrates conviction and clarified the law for all. There are many other precedents confirming other parts of these legislations

 

In the case referred to above, the traveller Mr Corbyn never gave a false name or address, he always made clear that he intended to pay the fare, but never did so before travelling. In short, the Law Lords decided that a traveller who knows that a fare is due, but does not pay before travelling when facilities were available and simply intends to pay if challenged, might be considered to be intending to avoid paying unless challenged. The full judgement was of course more detailed than that and included their decision that it was not necessary to infer that the traveller 'permanently' intended not to pay.

 

I hope that has helped

Edited April 12, 2010 by Old-CodJA

[Cbirch182]

Did you ask to pay the fare due at the time?

 

>Unfortunately the Inspector wouldn't give me the option to buy at the time and was straight into taking my details.

[SRPO]

I'll simplify the question.

When asked for your ticket did you say words to the effect of:

Can I buy a ticket please?

[Cbirch182]

I understand your comment and sympathise with the apparent inconistency in some cases. It can be confusing and is often down to who makes the check, but it is not that point which will be tested in Court. The charge will be that you hadn't shown a valid ticket on demand as required. If a conductor / guard checks and you haven't got one, you may be given a chance to buy a ticket. If an inspector makes the check it is much more likely that a report will be made.

 

Your comments may be put in mitigation of course, but it will also depend on what you are charged with, whether it has any cance of success. If there is good evidence that you could not get one, then it may succed.

 

If there were facilities to buy a ticket at the station before you boarded the train, you have a responsibility to use them and to pay your fare before travelling (The TOCs 'Charter' recognises that excessive queuing may be an acceptable reason, but times are laid down and on train staff made aware of difficulties via either pager or mobile phone. With CCTV at all stations, there is little value in claiming that there was an excessive wait if there wasn't.)

 

Staff making ticket checks are not obliged to ask for the fare and if they genuinely believe that the fare was at risk, may make a report to the rail company.

 

The argument that 'I didn't have time' so often put forward, always fails the test before the Magistrates in my experience. I've been in Court today and heard that response first hand once again. Mr X said he 'didn't intend not to pay, but there was a queue and he was in a hurry'. He had been charged with the strict liability matter of 'failing to show a valid ticket on demand' contrary to National Railways Byelaw 18.1 and was convicted. In delivering the verdict, the Chairman of the Bench reminded Mr X of the "need to get to the station with time to buy a ticket and if required to queue, then he must do so like everyone else"

 

He was fined £175, ordered to pay the fare and the prosecutor's costs and a £15.00 victim surcharge imposed on everyone who is fined by the Magistrates. A total of more than £300 when he could have caught a train 15 minutes later and paid less than a fiver for his ticket.

 

I have to say that personally, I don't think Mr X helped himself by coming over as particularly self-important, but nonetheless the Bench were clear in their interpretation of the legal position.

 

If you are charged with the more serious matter of 'intent to avoid payment of a fare' the rail company has to show that you could have bought a ticket and did not intend to do so if you were not asked to pay.

 

The most often quoted case relating to 'fare evasion' refers to the Appeal Court ruling by Lords Widgery, Park and Cumming-Bruce in 1977, which upheld the Magistrates conviction and clarified the law for all. There are many other precedents confirming other parts of these legislations

 

In the case referred to above, the traveller Mr Corbyn never gave a false name or address, he always made clear that he intended to pay the fare, but never did so before travelling. In short, the Law Lords decided that a traveller who knows that a fare is due, but does not pay before travelling when facilities were available and simply intends to pay if challenged, might be considered to be intending to avoid paying unless challenged. The full judgement was of course more detailed than that and included their decision that it was not necessary to infer that the traveller 'permanently' intended not to pay.

 

I hope that has helped

 

>>Very helpful thanks. It obviously pays to have an understanding of the legal position before you travel.

[Cbirch182]

I'll simplify the question.

When asked for your ticket did you say words to the effect of:

Can I buy a ticket please?

 

>No....

[Old-CodJA]

>>Very helpful thanks. It obviously pays to have an understanding of the legal position before you travel.

 

I know what you mean, but I think it is just worth remembering that if you can get a ticket then you should do so.

 

It prevents the risk of any traveller being labelled as an 'opportunist fare evader' whether that is their intention or not.

Edited April 12, 2010 by Old-CodJA

[SRPO]

>No....

 

Will be an easy job for the prosecutor then.

[Cbirch182]

The Inspector questioned whether I could produce evidence of payment for previous journeys on this line and having checked back home I have since found half a dozen train tickets for for the same journey.

 

Looking at this from a witness point of view in court, I appreciate that my case probably looks flimsy, but on producing these previous tickets I hope the train company will take a more favourable view and realise I am an honest customer.

[Old-CodJA]

Yes, your best chance is probably to take clear photocopies of those tickets and write to the TOC, sending the copies and giving your explanation, to see if they offer you the option of an administrative penalty as a means of settling the case.

[Conniff]

You say you wont go as far as court, so there seems no point in making a fuss.

[Old-CodJA]

You say you wont go as far as court, so there seems no point in making a fuss.

 

I tend to agree with the sentiment in that response, but unless an opportunity to settle has already been given by the rail company, it's always worth remembering that the decision on whether or not a case goes to Court isn't the traveller's to make.

 

Where the company believes there is evidence of an offence whereby a Summons may be issued, it is they who make that decision in every case.

 

I'm not saying you shouldn't defend your position, just that this is why it is always best to try to correspond factually and attempt to resolve the issue mutually wherever possible.

Edited April 14, 2010 by Old-CodJA

[Old-CodJA]

deleted

Edited April 14, 2010 by Old-CodJA
Deleted repetition

[Cbirch182]

Thanks for everyones input on here. I'm greatful for the time and interest people take to help others.

 

Having not had any experience of this type of scenario in the past, I had considered being on the front foot and writing to the TOC immediately giving my full version of events, however I'm mindful of the fact that very few cases are successful and excuses rarely count for much where law is concerned. Unless otherwise recommended on here, I will await instructions from the TOC and decide on my best course of action once they have considered how they wish to proceed.

[fight_the_establishment]

I don't see how one day they let me buy a ticket onboard, then another day I'm cautioned by law! They need to establish what constitutes fare evasion and stop moving the goal posts. I appreciate I didn't have a ticket before boarding the train, but why have ticket men walking through the train giving the option to buy onboard? Surely anyone who buys a ticket this way must be dodging the fares too? I fully intend to stand my ground and actually will actually quite enjoy disputing their case. However I will only go so far and don't want to end up in court. Thanks.

 

These RPI's are a strange breed.... Normally bullied at school and are lacking any self worth. So they go get a job with powers to ruin your day and make you pay way over the odds for your train fare. These robots have no discretion.

 

I was once late getting to the station and didnt buy a ticket because this would have made me an hour late and besides the guy on the train has sold me a ticket even off peak tickets on bord the train when travelling from a staion with open ticket facilities in the past.

 

So i bord the train the doors close i get my correct train fare from my pocket and take a seat. I get two b*******s talking at me. Informig me im comminting an offence........ now let me see... i have my money in my hand and im guilty of fare evasion!!!!!! crazy.......

[Cbirch182]

These RPI's are a strange breed.... Normally bullied at school and are lacking any self worth. So they go get a job with powers to ruin your day and make you pay way over the odds for your train fare. These robots have no discretion.

 

I was once late getting to the station and didnt buy a ticket because this would have made me an hour late and besides the guy on the train has sold me a ticket even off peak tickets on bord the train when travelling from a staion with open ticket facilities in the past.

 

So i bord the train the doors close i get my correct train fare from my pocket and take a seat. I get two b*******s talking at me. Informig me im comminting an offence........ now let me see... i have my money in my hand and im guilty of fare evasion!!!!!! crazy.......

 

 

Sounds exactly like my situation. It even states in their own website tickets are available on board. What was the outcome in your instance?

[samsmoot]

A friend got a fixed penalty notice for travelling without a valid ticket, but ignored it. Just under a year later (after which they would have been barred from taking out a prosecution) the train company's recovery department took it to the Magistrates Court.

 

Someone must have got into trouble over this because the summons was cocked up and read wrongly. Instead of being charged with travelling from station A to station B without a valid ticket (which is what the friend did), the summons stated that he got on at station B and off at station A, which he didn't.

 

He pled a confident 'not guilty' at the Preliminary Hearing, and that was the end of it. We were amused.

[timbo58]

These RPI's are a strange breed.... Normally bullied at school and are lacking any self worth. So they go get a job with powers to ruin your day and make you pay way over the odds for your train fare. These robots have no discretion.

 

I was once late getting to the station and didnt buy a ticket because this would have made me an hour late and besides the guy on the train has sold me a ticket even off peak tickets on bord the train when travelling from a staion with open ticket facilities in the past.

 

So i bord the train the doors close i get my correct train fare from my pocket and take a seat. I get two b*******s talking at me. Informig me im comminting an offence........ now let me see... i have my money in my hand and im guilty of fare evasion!!!!!! crazy.......

 

FWIW I believe the vast majority (including those who have posted here) are honest and just unfortunate.

 

However:

I don't suppose they had a high opinion of you either to be fair: but has your opinion of their schooling or background got any bearing?

 

ah, well that'll be a NO then?

 

IME all RPIs can give discretion but discretion means 'making their mind up whether you have good and believable mitigating circumstances that they can justify allowing discretion'.

Clearly they thought not in your case.

Remember: it's not just 'a feeling' RPIs have to be able to explain to their bosses AND frequently to other travellers (who may well have had a PFN etc in the past) why they are 'letting you off'.

 

Unfortunately for most who use this avenue for advice, regular, blatant thieves use the same reasons for not having a valid ticket that those making honest mistakes also make, this then devalues the 'honest travellers' argument to the point where it is no longer 'excused' at all.

 

I think it's about time that those whom attack the staff and system that is forced into strict interpretation of rules and the plethora of regulations should realise it is those people who regularly and blatantly steal from everyone else that have landed you in the sh*t too.

 

Just as we ALL pay for shoplifting, car crime and anti social behaviour.

A few do it and laugh at us all when they get away with it, and whine like a stuck pig when caught fair & square.

[RPI]

These RPI's are a strange breed.... Normally bullied at school and are lacking any self worth. So they go get a job with powers to ruin your day and make you pay way over the odds for your train fare. These robots have no discretion.

 

...

Generally the ones who make comments like this are the same ones who don't know when to shut up on the train, I had one like this recently, I wasn't going to PF him at first and just give a warning, at this point he piped up so I just PF'd him in the end.

 

It's also the ones who make such comments that think they are exempt from the rules and are usually wannabe know it all's who actually know nothing!

[Old-CodJA]

 

1. These RPI's are a strange breed.... Normally bullied at school and are lacking any self worth. So they go get a job with powers to ruin your day and make you pay way over the odds for your train fare. These robots have no discretion.

 

2. I was once late getting to the station and didnt buy a ticket because this would have made me an hour late and besides the guy on the train has sold me a ticket even off peak tickets on bord the train when travelling from a staion with open ticket facilities in the past.

 

3. So i bord the train the doors close i get my correct train fare from my pocket and take a seat. I get two b*******s talking at me. Informig me im comminting an offence........ now let me see... i have my money in my hand and im guilty of fare evasion!!!!!! crazy.......

 

1. Your bigoted opinion of the upbringing and education of another human being is supposed to make us all sympathetic to your cause is it??

 

It's about a valid as saying all women are bad drivers and probably says pretty well everything the reader needs to know about your attitude when spoken to.

 

When I was an RPI, I always exercised discretion where appropriate and whenever I came up against the 'vocal know-it-all', I never found it appropriate. You reap what you sow.

 

2. Let's look at that bit in more detail. As someone who has had to deal with the product of RPI reports for many years I get a little annoyed by inconsistencies too, but there are two important factors here.

 

The RPIs don't write the rules and dependent on whether your ticket has been checked by a conductor guard, a train manager or an RPI, you may get a different action being taken. That's because in the main, Inspectors are qualified to deal with fare evasion by reporting for prosecution and other grades are not although the notice that they issue might still end up as the basis of a prosecution case if it remains unpaid. I don't offer that as a perfect process and there are management issues in that situation that need sorting for what my personal opinion is worth.

 

More importantly in your specific case this arose because you were late. Who was it that made you late arriving at the station? It certainly wasn't the rail company was it?

 

3. Again, it wasn't the RPI who determined that a traveller who knows that a fare is due and boards a train without paying and with the intention of paying later only if asked to do so, might be guilty of an offence of fare evasion. It was the Appeal Court.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Old-CodJA

[Stigy]

These RPI's are a strange breed.... Normally bullied at school and are lacking any self worth. So they go get a job with powers to ruin your day and make you pay way over the odds for your train fare........

I don't set out to ruin people's days.....

 

 

I set out to ruin their lives. Do you realise how bitter and twisted you sound? How's this for a piece of advice? Get out of bed that little bit earlier in future.

[Cbirch182]

Lets 'get back on track' here. I don't think these guys have a particularly easy job to do, especially when faced with angry sometimes violent members of the public. I wouldn't fancy putting myself in their position, but they have a responsibilty to protect their company and obviously their own jobs so I can respect that in one way. However, it seems people (As said somewhere previously in this thread) are unfortunately tarred with the same brush and I wasn't particularly happy when the RPO reffered to his colleague saying "I've got one" (Meaning me) having spent in excess of £5,000 in season tickets over the last 3-4 years.