Train Fare Evasion

[fight_the_establishment]

Sounds exactly like my situation. It even states in their own website tickets are available on board. What was the outcome in your instance?

 

 

i sat there and stood my ground!!!!! they told me BTP would be at the next station to remove me from the train and arrest me. Get them i answered..............knowing the local area i was traveling through i knew that even if they did call the btp there was noway they would get to any of the stations the train stopped at before my destination...

 

after Min's (the whole of the journey) of being talked at by these Richard heads my train pulled into my destination station. I said now either you sell me the ticket or i walk off the train having made my journey for free without a ticket right under your nose!!!!!! needless to say they printed a ticket.

 

however...... more recently I have had major issues with one RIP that did call BTP....... I have raised this with CrossCountry trains (ariva) to director level and regards the btp i have to decide if i want to take a caution for travel fraud or go court and face a fine up to £1000 if found guilty..........And as i didn't commit travel fraud whatsoever..... I'm off to court!!!!!! let me know if you want the nitty gritty of this one....... they ain't got a leg stand on....... as i always record the conversations i have with BTP and the RPI's you wont believe the bull **** these idiots have come out with. Neither will any court. Bring it on.

[Stigy]

....... as i always record the conversations i have with BTP and the RPI's you wont believe the bull **** these idiots have come out with. Neither will any court. Bring it on.

Obviously you told the Officers you were recording them then? This isn't really my forte, but suley to be able to use that in court you'd need to have it RIPA authorisation, and/or by recording them presumably without their knowledge, you would be breaking yet another law?

 

Also, wouldn't it have been funny if you were all ready to walk off, only to find BTP conbducting an Operation at your destination.

[Old-CodJA]

however...... more recently I have had major issues with one RIP that did call BTP....... I have raised this with CrossCountry trains (ariva) to director level and regards the btp i have to decide if i want to take a caution for travel fraud or go court and face a fine up to £1000 if found guilty..........And as i didn't commit travel fraud whatsoever..... I'm off to court!!!!!! let me know if you want the nitty gritty of this one....... they ain't got a leg stand on....... as i always record the conversations i have with BTP and the RPI's you wont believe the bull **** these idiots have come out with. Neither will any court. Bring it on.

 

Yes please, I'd be interested to hear the general details of the case.

 

It is very unusual for BTP to prosecute fare evasion cases, so it will be interesting to learn what this one is all about.

 

.

[Conniff]

 

..... as i always record the conversations i have with BTP and the RPI's you wont believe the bull **** these idiots have come out with. Neither will any court. Bring it on.

 

Be aware that you can't just enter a recording into evidence if you haven't informed the people that you are recording them. You can transcribe it and enter that and make it know to the judge that you have the recording and he can ask for it if he want's.

[Conniff]

Obviously you told the Officers you were recording them then? This isn't really my forte, but suley to be able to use that in court you'd need to have it RIPA authorisation, and/or by recording them presumably without their knowledge, you would be breaking yet another law?

 

Also, wouldn't it have been funny if you were all ready to walk off, only to find BTP conbducting an Operation at your destination.

 

You don't have to let anyone know you are recording them if it is for personal use and you don't need any authorisation. That's why you can't enter this type of recording into evidence, but you can make it known that you have a recording.

[Cbirch182]

I have received a letter from the courts and am summoned to appear for the charge(s) of

1. Did contravene Byelaw no 18 (1) of the Railway Byelaws made under section 219 and schedule 20 of the transport act 2000, in that I entered a train in a non-compulsory ticket area for the purpose of travelling on the railway without a valid ticket entitling travel.

 

The statement of fact seems to have been bodged in that it reads "On Monday 12th April 2010, the defendant travelled by train between WOODHAM FERRERS and BILLERICAY. During the journey he was requested to produce a ticket. He did not have a valid ticket for his journey. After being cautioned he further admitted that he did not have the money or means to pay his fare. He was informed the matter would be reported.

 

I was unable to produce a valid ticket for the journey from Woodham Ferrers to Wickford.

 

The witness statement details the outstanding fare of Woodham Ferrers - Wickford (an amount outstanding of 10p)

 

My concern is if I plead guilty without attending court (start a new job in two weeks) will this have a greater bearing on the fine/outcome>

[RPI]

i sat there and stood my ground!!!!! they told me BTP would be at the next station to remove me from the train and arrest me. Get them i answered..............knowing the local area i was traveling through i knew that even if they did call the btp there was noway they would get to any of the stations the train stopped at before my destination...

 

after Min's (the whole of the journey) of being talked at by these Richard heads my train pulled into my destination station. I said now either you sell me the ticket or i walk off the train having made my journey for free without a ticket right under your nose!!!!!! needless to say they printed a ticket.

 

however...... more recently I have had major issues with one RIP that did call BTP....... I have raised this with CrossCountry trains (ariva) to director level and regards the btp i have to decide if i want to take a caution for travel fraud or go court and face a fine up to £1000 if found guilty..........And as i didn't commit travel fraud whatsoever..... I'm off to court!!!!!! let me know if you want the nitty gritty of this one....... they ain't got a leg stand on....... as i always record the conversations i have with BTP and the RPI's you wont believe the bull **** these idiots have come out with. Neither will any court. Bring it on.

 

funny how this one went quite.............

[Wriggler7]

If you plead guilty by post, the fine will be reduced by about a third. You also need to submit a 'means form', which NXEA will have sent you along with the summons. It is 'mainly blue' and marked as form MC100.

 

A warning to all with this: False details on a submission to a Court on a form like an MC100 is way more serious than 'bunking a train fare'.

 

If you attend Court, they may see this as a higher degree of 'respect' to the Court, and sometimes that will give a 'cheaper' result. Set against that is the cost of going to Southend, finding somewhere to park near the Court and your 'time'.

 

The summons will show a time that the case is listed for hearing, either about 9.30am or 1.30pm. That does not mean that the case will happen 'at' that time. Listings are dealt with in the order (when possible) of 'defendant in custody', defendant attended, defendant absent. Typically, there will be a whole host of 'defendants' and various legal teams all jostling to get in first, and Southend Magistrates may well not deal with your matter until a couple of hours after the time on the summons.

 

That said, there is a jolly good cafe at Southend Magistrates, as the same building is used for the Crown Court, and you will see allsorts of impressive wigs and gowns wandering about with their 'briefs' tucked under their arms.

 

My normal advice is: attend if you can, write if you can't attend. If you want a solicitor to assist you, you will need to organise one for yourself before Court. The duty solicitor scheme does not cover 'Byelaw' offences.

[Cbirch182]

Thanks for the advice there.

I will struggle to attend court as I start a new job in a weeks time so could prove difficult getting time off.

 

One other thing: within the documents received the inspector said I had no means to pay for the unpaid journey. This is NOT true. I always have with me a debit/credit card and usually cash. Payment of the fare was never discussed as I said in the beginning. This was never questioned and the inspectors witness statement confirms that fact.

[Wriggler7]

Byelaw 18(1) relates to boarding the train without a valid ticket. The offence was 'complete' at the point of boarding the train.

 

Anything after that doesn't really matter.

 

If it was me that was on the sticky end of this summons, I would plead guilty by post, send in the means form, wait for the notice of penalty from the Court.

 

Expect a fine in the region of £100 to £200, costs as shown on the paperwork, compensation of the fare and £15.00 'victim surcharge'. Expect to pay the Court by return of post.

[Cbirch182]

Agreed..

 

Leaves a bad taste when they accuse me of not having the means to pay the fare when this was never discussed. I wish now I had questioned payment of the fare once I was under caution.

 

I shall reply as follows:

 

*Statement of Mitigation*

*

I regret that I am not able to appear before the Court but I have only just stated a new job after nine years at my previous employer and feel that taking time off so soon may be detrimental to my future career. I hope the Court will understand my position.

*

I wish to plead guilty to the charge as stated but I would like to set the record straight in regard to a misstatement of fact which is, that although I did not have a valid ticket for the first part of my journey from Woodham Ferrers to Wickford I most definitely did not admit to not having the money or the means to pay this fare after being cautioned.* This is evidenced by the witness’s statement which makes no reference to such an admission being made by me or indeed any question being asked by the Revenue Protection Inspector, Mr ****. In point of fact and prior to being cautioned I asked Mr ***** if I could pay the fare there and then, but my request was ignored.

*

It was not my intention to avoid paying the fare from Woodham Ferrers to Wickford, after all I have a valid season ticket from Wickford to Brentwood and would not regard myself as a fare dodger.

*

I now understand that what I thought was acceptable practice in buying a ticket from the conductor on the train is in fact not the case. I regret having made a stupid mistake and have learnt a costly lesson.

*

Edited September 11, 2010 by Cbirch182

[Wriggler7]

That is about right.

 

The Bench will probably look at the Prosecutor and say 'Comments?', he will look at the Inspector's statement, a copy of which will already be on the Court file.

 

As I stated previously, the 'offence' was complete before the Inspector spoke with you. The Clerk will probably remind the Bench that your comments are 'mitigation'.

 

Wait for the letter from the Court.

 

Each Court is entitled to 'punish' within parameters according to the offence, and the 'means' of the defendant. None of us can begin to guess what the Court will decide, the 'normal' 'entry point' for this offence is £175, it can go up for rich people who have done something 'bad' along with it, or where there are recoprded previous convictions, down for an early guilty plea, good mitigation, low means.

[Stigy]

Thanks for the advice there.

I will struggle to attend court as I start a new job in a weeks time so could prove difficult getting time off.

 

One other thing: within the documents received the inspector said I had no means to pay for the unpaid journey. This is NOT true. I always have with me a debit/credit card and usually cash. Payment of the fare was never discussed as I said in the beginning. This was never questioned and the inspectors witness statement confirms that fact.

That being said, you still haven't been charged with having noi means...

[green_and_mean]

If the website says you can buy tickets on board then fight your corner. These train operators try anything to screw money out of you and just hope you don't know the law, why do you think there was 4 staff checking tickets rather than 4 staff at the station selling tickets?! I was once threatened with a penalty fare on SWT for waiting for my wife to arrive by train the Revenue officer tried to tell me it was an offence to be on the platform without a valid ticket until I pointed out the ticket office and machines were all on the platform making it impossible to adhere to his 'rules' since everyone queuing to buy a ticket was according to him breaking the law.

[Cbirch182]

Stigy...Correct, but you're missing the point. Although it may/may not affect the outcome, they have fabricated the evidence supplied to the court to my disadvantage.

 

I've been informed that purgery is a far more serious offence than not having a £2 ticket to board a train yet I'm the one that gets the criminal record.

 

I'm glad my job gives me greater satisfaction.

[green_and_mean]

On-Board

 

Tickets are sold on-board National Express East Anglia trains except for journeys where penalty fares apply, but to minimise fare evasion, you will only be able to buy either First or Standard Open tickets, or First or Standard Day tickets for single or return journeys.

Unfortunately, no discounts are available on any ticket bought on board unless you have a Disabled Persons Railcard.

 

 

There are exemptions to byelaw 18

 

(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or

validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where,

he began his journey; or

(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey

permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or

(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a

valid ticket.

 

 

I would say that stating it on the website was covered by either ii or iii it clearly states you can travel and buy a ticket onboard.

[Old-CodJA]

On-Board

 

Tickets are sold on-board National Express East Anglia trains except for journeys where penalty fares apply, but to minimise fare evasion, you will only be able to buy either First or Standard Open tickets, or First or Standard Day tickets for single or return journeys.

Unfortunately, no discounts are available on any ticket bought on board unless you have a Disabled Persons Railcard.

 

 

There are exemptions to byelaw 18

 

(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or

validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where,

he began his journey; or

(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey

permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or

(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a

valid ticket.

 

 

I would say that stating it on the website was covered by either ii or iii it clearly states you can travel and buy a ticket onboard.

 

The facility to pay on board is qualified by 18.1 and is only relevant if no facilities were available to you before boarding a train.

 

That does not mean 'if a traveller didn't want to queue for a ticket' or, 'if a traveller didn't want to put a note in a machine' etc. It means only if there were no facilities in working order.

 

Otherwise, as Wriggler makes clear, the strict liability offence is made out at the point at which the traveller boarded the train without previously paying the fare or holding a valid ticket.

 

Whether the traveller held acceptable means to pay or not is irrelevant in respect of the Byelaw charge. That would only be worthy of consideration if the charge of 'intent to avoid a fare' had been alleged.

[green_and_mean]

The facility to pay on board is qualified by 18.1 and is only relevant if no facilities were available to you before boarding a train.

 

That does not mean 'if a traveller didn't want to queue for a ticket' or, 'if a traveller didn't want to put a note in a machine' etc. It means only if there were no facilities in working order.

 

Otherwise, as Wriggler makes clear, the strict liability offence is made out at the point at which the traveller boarded the train without previously paying the fare or holding a valid ticket.

 

Whether the traveller held acceptable means to pay or not is irrelevant in respect of the Byelaw charge. That would only be worthy of consideration if the charge of 'intent to avoid a fare' had been alleged.

 

I never suggested exemption (i) applied?? I said ii or iii which are not dependant on (i) hence the use of the word 'or' in the byelaw. If the train operator advertises on its website than tickets can be purchased on board it would be unlawful then to charge a penalty fare as its fraud, ie making a false representation to gain financial gain.

[Old-CodJA]

I never suggested exemption (i) applied?? I said ii or iii which are not dependant on (i) hence the use of the word 'or' in the byelaw. If the train operator advertises on its website than tickets can be purchased on board it would be unlawful then to charge a penalty fare as its fraud, ie making a false representation to gain financial gain.

 

Yes, I'm sorry if it seemed confusing, I understand that and you are spot-on, it would be unlawful to charge a Penalty Fare, but not unlawful to charge with an offence and that is the distinction that matters in respect of the Byelaws.

[yearly]

Cbirch182 - I am quite curious why you've not contacted the TOC in order to settle the matter out of court? Or have you done so and failed? Did they send you an initial letter before sending you the summons?

[Cbirch182]

Cbirch182 - I am quite curious why you've not contacted the TOC in order to settle the matter out of court? Or have you done so and failed? Did they send you an initial letter before sending you the summons?

 

I had replied to their first letter asking to settle without the need of troubling the courts and offering to settle their costs etc.

[yearly]

I had replied to their first letter asking to settle without the need of troubling the courts and offering to settle their costs etc.

 

So this was rejected? Were they not even prepared to negotiate?

[Old-CodJA]

So this was rejected? Were they not even prepared to negotiate?

 

Some people might not like it, but the TOCs are not obliged to do so.

 

If evidence of an offence has been detected they may issue a Summons to have that allegation heard.

 

They are not actually obliged to write before issuing the Summons either, but generally will send a 'verification letter' before proceeding.

[Cbirch182]

Some people might not like it, but the TOCs are not obliged to do so.

 

If evidence of an offence has been detected they may issue a Summons to have that allegation heard.

 

They are not actually obliged to write before issuing the Summons either, but generally will send a 'verification letter' before proceeding.

 

I didn't expect an out of court settlement from what I've previously read on here. What concerns me is how misleading their website is and how ticket conductors have advised me-ok to buy a ticket on board. We could even see the conductor selling tickets to customers on the next carriage. In hindsight, I suppose I should have gone towards him.

[Old-CodJA]

I didn't expect an out of court settlement from what I've previously read on here. What concerns me is how misleading their website is and how ticket conductors have advised me-ok to buy a ticket on board. We could even see the conductor selling tickets to customers on the next carriage. In hindsight, I suppose I should have gone towards him.

 

What the traveller in one carriage rarely knows about those in the next is what journey those people are making and therefore will not know what happened at the station that they got on at, but the RPI will.

 

For example, if the ticket facilities are out of order at station A it is perfectly acceptable for a traveller from A to board the train and approach staff and pay the fare. You may have seen that happening.

 

That does not mean that it is acceptable for a traveller from station B where facilities to pay were available, to wait to be asked to pay a fare on board.

 

The traveller from station B who does so may be charged with the strict liability Byelaw offence under 18.1 (2005), but might also be charged with the more serious offence of 'intending to avoid a fare' if not challenged to pay contrary to Section 5.3.a of The Regulation of Railways Act 1889.

 

The precedent for a charge under that legislation can be found in the case of Corbyn (1978) where the Appeal Court Judges (Lord Widgery, Judge Cummings-Bruce and Judge Park) decided that a traveller who boarded a train, knowing that a fare is due and who did not pay that fare beforehand, but travelled with the intention of waiting to be asked to pay before doing so, should be considered guilty of intending to avoid payment unless challenged.

 

.

Edited September 13, 2010 by Old-CodJA