Capital One - **WON**

[Philip Hindley]

I had problems with Capital One, four years ago, resulting in them calling in a DCA called Newman & Co, (a particularly nasty bunch of .....!) After much harrassment, I managed to reduce the amount owing to about £1400, at which point Capital One agreed to accept 70% in short settlement.This I paid, although my credit file shows the default as partially settled.

 

Accordingly, in February, I wrote to Capital One with the Library letter, requesting a refund of penalty charges and DPA request.

Last week I received a reply from Lee Powell, Executive Office Manager, saying:" ....we add an automatic late payment fee of £20 to your account if your payment hasn't reached us by the date we give on your statement. We also add an overlimit fee if your account goes over your agreed credit limit. Our fees are in line with other banks and financial institutions and I'm afraid when you signed your credit agreement, you agreed to them.............. unfortunately, the fees we've added are correct and I'm afraid I won't be refunding them to you. However, as your account is partially settled (so far as I was concerned, it was FULLY settled ), you don't need to pay back the remaining balance."

He goes on to suggest I send my DPA request and £10 to a Katherine Blunt and finishes by saying,".....Once again, I'm sorry you feel our fees are unfair. However, I hope I've explained things clearly and you can now put this behind you,"

On Monday, the following should hit his desk:

 

Thank you for your patronising reply to my recent letter, in which I sought re-imbursement of the unlawful and punitive charges applied to the above account,

It interested me to note that you seem unable to justify the level of your charges, other than by comparison with other banks.

I feel sure that, should I suffer the misfortune of being robbed in the street, the mugger would justify his actions by declaring them to be in line with those of other thieves.

 

You are, of course, correct, in that I did sign your credit agreement, and I accept that, in making late payments and going over my credit limit I was in breach of contract. I can only quote from my original letter: "these charges are punitive in nature, not a genuine pre-estimate of cost and not intended to re-imburse your losses for a breach of contract occuring. There are numerous cases in law that prove that punitive charges are UNENFORCEABLE at English Law."

 

Thank you also for reminding me of the default showing on my credit file. I shall, of course, request that the court sanction the removal of this with immediate effect.

 

As suggested, I have written to Ms Blunt with my request for DPA information, and, when I receive this, I am sure you will not mind if I write to you again with a letter before action, in which I shall be able to quote the actual amount I will be seeking in re-imbursement.

 

I know this isn't the answer you were looking for, but since you have clearly failed to explain the justification for your bank's unfair penalty charges, I will only be able to "put it behind me", when I receive full re-payment.

 

Yours etc.......

i][/i]

[BankFodder]

Have you got any correspondence relating to the negotiation of the partial/full settlement?

I'd like to see it. There might be somehting we can do.

[Philip Hindley]

Hi Bankfodder,

 

I've got the last two letters I received from Newman & Co, which I will scan and pm to you.

 

Thanks

[BankFodder]

You won't be able to pm them email them to bankfodder@bankactiongroup.co.uk but pm me that you have done it

[BankFodder]

Received.

 

It seems to me that the letter says that it is settled - so it would be incorrect to record a partial settlement. Partial settlement suggests that there is an outstanding liability which there clearly isn't.

 

You may want to drop them aline about this but it will be hard going.

the one thing which banks really don't want to do is admit mistakes on the CR.

 

But before you do anything else, how much of this debt which you partially settled was made up of charges?

[Philip Hindley]

I'm afraid I won't know how big a proportion of the debt was made up of charges until Capital One respond to my DPA request.

 

I'll let you know as soon as they do.

[BankFodder]

Good. When you post, could you call my attention to it by pm containing a link. There is so much stuff coming through now that I am starting to miss things.

[Philip Hindley]

Still no sign of my statements, but yesterday I received the following letter from

Robert Udy, Executive Office Manager (another one!):

 

" Thank you for taking the time to write to me again about the charges we've added to your account. I'm sorry you're unhappy with my reply and you feel that it was patronising. I certainly didn't mean to come across this way.

 

As I explained in my last letter, the charges we've applied are correct. We add charges if you don't pay your minimum payment on time or if you go over your agreed credit limit. Our charges are detailed in the terms and conditions you sign before receiving your card and in your welcome pack. These terms and conditions form part of your agreement with Capital One. We believe that we provide our customers with great value and service and that our charges are fair and appropriate.

 

I realise that you would like me to justify these charges. As you know the Office of Fair Trading are investigating the charges we add and until this investigation is complete, we will continue to charge the same amount.

 

You mention that you've written to Ms Blunt requesting information from your account. As soon as she receives your letter, she will send the information you've asked for.

 

I realise you aren't happy and you'll be taking this further. You can now contact the Financial Ombudsman Service and show them copies of both the letters I've sent. Their address is in the leaflet I included with my last letter.

 

Again, I realise this isn't the answer you were hoping for but I trust I've explained things clearly and I hope you'll accept my best wishes for your future.

 

Yours etc, "

 

 

My reply, which will be posted on Monday:

 

Dear Mr Udy,

 

Thank you for apologising for the patronising letter (intentional, or not) sent to me on the 1st March. I feel it is very noble of you to take responsibility for a letter signed by your colleague, Lee Powell, to whom my reply was addressed. If you have any other colleagues, whom you feel would like to write to me, please let me know their names. The last thing I want is for anyone to feel left out!

 

I note that, once again, you are unable to justify the level of your charges, other than by reference to the investigation being carried out by the Office of Fair Trading.

 

Having employed the tactics of obfuscation and delay to, thus far, fail to refund my money, I am surprised that you did not wait one more day to hear the outcome of their investigation.

 

As I am sure you must be aware, the OFT seem to agree with me, that the high penalty charges imposed by banks, such as yourselves, (and I know I'm starting to sound repetitive) "are unlawful and unenforceable". Furthermore, "if a charge is set below the suggested MAXIMUM threshold of £12.00, this does not make it fair".

 

You refer to the terms and conditions of my agreement with you. As was pointed out by one learned commentator on the National News, "an unfair and unlawful contract is not worth the paper it is written on."

 

I have, indeed, sent my request for a comprehensive list of charges applied to my account, to your colleague, Ms Blunt.

I am sure that you will not be surprised that, to date, I have received no reply. I can assure you that when I do have a figure for the total sum you owe me, I shall write to you, or one of your colleagues (see above!)

 

By the way, I will not be contacting the Financial Ombudsman Service, despite your suggestion that I do so. It is my intention to have a full refund of all these penalties, through the County Court, long before the FOS would be able to reach a decision. Also, as you ought to know, the Financial Ombudsman Service is unable to arbitrate on matters of contract law.

 

I appreciate your best wishes for my future. I would feel they were more sincere if accommpanied by a cheque.

 

Nonetheless, I remain, agog with eager anticipation,

 

Yours sincerely

[Janet-M]

LMAO I'm hysterical .. can't wait to see what reply you recieve to that. I suggest you also remind them the time is ticking away and how long they have left to date to supply the information requested.

[Philip Hindley]

LMAO I'm hysterical .. can't wait to see what reply you recieve to that. I suggest you also remind them the time is ticking away and how long they have left to date to supply the information requested.

 

Hi Janet,

 

Thanks for your encouragement.

 

I've posted my letter to Mr Udy, by recorded delivery, this morning.

 

Unfortunately, I didn't send the£10.00 to cover the DPA request, until I wrote to Ms Blunt, on 25th March, so she's got until approx 5th May to reply.

 

Nevertheless, I've done as you suggested and reminded Mr Udy of the deadline.

 

Thanks, once again. (By the way, what does LMAO mean?)

[sportbeth]

Received.

 

It seems to me that the letter says that it is settled - so it would be incorrect to record a partial settlement. Partial settlement suggests that there is an outstanding liability which there clearly isn't.

 

You may want to drop them aline about this but it will be hard going.

the one thing which banks really don't want to do is admit mistakes on the CR.

 

But before you do anything else, how much of this debt which you partially settled was made up of charges?

 

I have exactly the same thing. Written confirmation from their "representative" of full settlement, Credit files still say balance oustanding. All they have done is taken the reduced sum for full and final settlement and taken it off their figure. Even though I have negotiated full settlement they're not budging

[scottishpol]

Hi Janet,

 

Thanks for your encouragement.

 

I've posted my letter to Mr Udy, by recorded delivery, this morning.

 

Unfortunately, I didn't send the£10.00 to cover the DPA request, until I wrote to Ms Blunt, on 25th March, so she's got until approx 5th May to reply.

 

Nevertheless, I've done as you suggested and reminded Mr Udy of the deadline.

 

Thanks, once again. (By the way, what does LMAO mean?)

 

Laugh My A** Off

[Philip Hindley]

Laugh My A** Off

 

 

Oh!

[Philip Hindley]

Received two A4 envelopes, full of stuff, today from Katherine Blunt.

 

Done the Excel spreadsheet which shows total charges of £444 plus £165.02 interest.

 

Couple of interesting points arise from this:

 

1. The charges come close to the amount written off by Capital One in settlement (£417.34). Will this make it difficult/impossible to claim them back?

 

2, Amongst the mass of papers were monthly statements, dating from when the account was settled until the present day, still showing an outstanding balance of £417.34. Again, can this be used as a get out clause to prevent me re-claiming charges.

[Philip Hindley]

Anyone got any thoughts on the above?

 

Any opinions would be appreciated.

[DavidBellchamber]

Philip,

 

I am about to take Capital One on myself and your experience so far gives me great encouragement, thanks. You have obviously been able to keep your sense of humour!

 

I just hope I can be as articulate as yourself in my dealings with them.

 

Good Luck with your crusade!

 

David

[BankFodder]

As long as they owe you more than yuo owe them, you sue. But you only sue for what you have actually lost.

 

Start claiming back just the difference. If they start referring to the 417 - then you start to include it. Have you been deafulted on this?

[Philip Hindley]

Hi Bankfodder,

 

Yes.

 

I paid an amount in what I was told was "short settlement", two years ago, but my credit reference file shows the account as 'partially settled'.

 

It also concens me that, though I considered this account closed, Capital One are still preparing monthly statements (though not sending them to me) showing an outstanding balance.

[Philip Hindley]

Received a letter 10 days ago from Robert Udy, reiterating the tired old arguments about T&Cs, the fairness of their charges, etc, etc.

 

However, he was anxious to avoid our dispute ending up in court, and so was prepared to offer a " full refund of all charges ever applied to your account."

 

He asked me to sign and return an acceptance form which included a confidentiality clause.

 

I duly signed and returned the form, having first crossed out the confidentiality clause, explaining in my letter that I did so because I considered that it impinged on my civil liberties.

 

Received another letter, today, saying a cheque for the full amount will be sent within 28 days and that, " I realise that you do not wish to agree to our confidentiality request. Please be assured this is totally your decision and doesn't affect my offer."

 

Another victory for the CAG, I think!

 

A donation will follow when the cheque arrives.

 

Thanks to everyone for the advice and support.

 

Just got Lloyds TSB, MBNA, Alliance & Leicester and the Halifax to sort out now!!

[redusga64]

Phil,

 

I commend you and your wise words, it gives me encouragment to beat them down even harder.

 

Congratulations

[Jamboray]

Thats a great result and good for everyone to see.

[DavidBellchamber]

Well Done Phil!

 

My preliminary letter to Capital One has been ignored, so my Letter Before Action will be winging its way to them shortly. I'll start my own C1 thread shortly.

 

Your result boosts my fortitude!

 

David

[sportbeth]

Hello All,

 

I hope you can help. Very similar to Phil's situation.

 

My payments hit a brick wall in 2004 when charges mounted up.

 

My card balance was £200 which Cap one took me over with charges, and they pushed the balance up to £632 (extortionate!!)

 

I settled with £316 last year (which should account for £200 owed + £116 in their charges and interest) This was confirmed in writing as full and final settlement.

 

Upon checking my credit file they have marked it not only as defaulted but partial settlement of the default.

 

My total charges are £702 in three years, do I knock off that extra £316 as part of the figure in my initial letter (the £316 that they knocked off the settlement but have still marked as oustanding on my credit file!) Either way I want the default removed!!

 

Any help gratefully recieved. And Phil - you're not THE Phil Hindley from motorsport are you?

[Philip Hindley]

Hello All,

 

I hope you can help. Very similar to Phil's situation.

 

My payments hit a brick wall in 2004 when charges mounted up.

 

My card balance was £200 which Cap one took me over with charges, and they pushed the balance up to £632 (extortionate!!)

 

I settled with £316 last year (which should account for £200 owed + £116 in their charges and interest) This was confirmed in writing as full and final settlement.

 

Upon checking my credit file they have marked it not only as defaulted but partial settlement of the default.

 

My total charges are £702 in three years, do I knock off that extra £316 as part of the figure in my initial letter (the £316 that they knocked off the settlement but have still marked as oustanding on my credit file!) Either way I want the default removed!!

 

Any help gratefully recieved. And Phil - you're not THE Phil Hindley from motorsport are you?

 

Hi Sportbeth!

 

Last question first. No, I'm not THAT Phil Hindley.

 

As to your Capital One dilema, I was really hoping that someone wiser than me would be able to offer you some advice.

 

If you look back at my situation, you'll see that the amount of charges (£444) was just a little more than the amount written off in short settlement (£416).

 

While I was trying to work out what to do for the best, and before I'd even sent a Letter Before Action or told them the amount I intended to claim, they offered to repay ALL the charges.

 

I'm not happy about my credit record still showing the debt as "partially settled", but this should be cleared next year, and, more importantly, I've got MY money back. This I can now use to fund my claims against the other Institutions, and it may be, that I decide to re-open my argument with Capital One at a later date.

 

If I were you (other people may not agree), I'd start off by claiming the whole £702 they charged you. They'll soon let you know if they don't agree, and it wouldn't surprise me if they don't eventually offer you this much anyway.

 

In my opinion, returning the charges is an admission that they were wrong in the first place. This ought to add weight to any subsequent negotiation or court case to have the default notice removed.

 

I'm afraid that in my case I subscribed to the advice once given by Mike Harding in his song about "Uncle Groper" :

 

' Take the Smarties and RUN!!!!!! '

 

Good luck

[Philip Hindley]

Just worked out that I can 'cut and paste' from Word into my postings (Duh!), so thought I would share the acceptance letter I sent Robert Udy:

 

 

Dear Mr Udy,

 

CAPITAL ONE CARD ACCOUNT NUMBER: xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx

 

Thank you for your letter of the 24th April, reiterating your company’s position with regard to your charges.

 

I feel sure that, were you to look again at the result of the investigation by the Office of Fair Trading, you would see that they stipulate £12.00 to be the MAXIMUM level at which charges should be levied. The OFT goes on to say that “ if a charge is set below the suggested maximum threshold, this does not make it fair.

 

It is true that your charges are shown in your terms and conditions and welcome pack.

 

To take my argument to an extreme, were your terms and conditions to say that a breach of contract was punishable by death, it would be no more unlawful or unenforceable if the penalty were to be carried out, than the pecuniary penalties which Capital One attempt to impose.

 

You say that your charges are based on the costs incurred as a result of a breach of contract. I have yet, however, to be given a legitimate breakdown of what those costs might be.

 

Mr. Udy, I understand your position, and I realise that our viewpoints are, of necessity, diametrically opposed.

 

I appreciate your offer of a refund of £444.00, this representing all the charges added to my account, and am happy to return your settlement form, in acceptance of this.

 

I do, however, find your request for confidentiality disquieting, and whilst I have no intention of taking advertising space in the Financial Times to publicise our dialogue and its outcome, would query how far this condition impinges on my civil liberties. I have therefore struck out this proviso from my agreement.

 

If this is unacceptable to you, then please let me know, by return, so that I may proceed with my claim via the courts.

 

Yours sincerely,