Respondent's legal Fee threat in employment tribunal ?

[hedgehog1234]

Hi ! My solicitor drafted a letter for the tribunal requesting a postponement but not unsurprisingly the request was denied. Couple of quick questions please - I'm not quite sure why the respondent is trying to discredit me because I resigned and claimed that I worked too long with out break. So what merit in terms of the trial would their false accusations have ? I just don't get it ? I mean are they suggesting that if you're a bit poo at your job you can't have lunch ? How would the judge view this policy of theirs ? I could understand if I was claiming unfair dismissal but I'm not. Could someone explain this please because I'm reluctant to give their allegations any time. My case is simple I worked longer than six hours with no break,how can being no good at your job matter ? They didn't verbally warn me for my performance or in writing but now apparently I'm useless. Seems ridiculous ?

[honeybee13]

Hi HH. I'm not quite sure what you're driving at, sorry. I've re-read your thread and there isn't very much on the reasons you left, more on how the case was being run. What policy are you talking about on working hours and do you have it in writing?

 

Sorry if I'm anwering the wrong question, but there are rules about how long you can be made to work without a break and those would be on the directgov or ACAS websites.

 

As for them trying to construct a case, we've said before that they're trying all sorts of tricks now because they don't like the position you've got them in.

 

If you still have unanswered questions, please post again and I'll try harder next time .

 

HB x

[hedgehog1234]

Hello Honeybee - quite simply little or no lunch break and working from 8am till 3pm (and beyond for general house keeping till up till 4pm) with no break at all,my solicitor informs me that 6 hours without a break is a breach of contract. I verbally questioned this with my employer and was told to stop asking these sorts of questions. After I expressed my concerns my life became hell,I resigned. I know all the "shoulds" etc but I made no written grievance and what complaints I did make in the grievance meeting didn't make it into the minutes (how surprising). They have got members of staff to make witness statements saying I was rubbish etc. All false and that's my point;should in the tribunal I just say "yer whatever - does being crap at my job mean I get no break". They gave me no verbal warnings or written about performance yet now I'm awful. Go figure huh :O)

[honeybee13]

I hope I haven't overlooked something on the thread, but could you get witness statements or do you have other proof that you didn't have the breaks you were entitled to? And did they get the witness statements properly or write them and then pressurise staff to sign them? We've seen that before.

 

HB

[honeybee13]

This is directgov on breaks, in case it helps.

 

HB x

 

Rest breaks - a break during your working day

 

As an adult worker (over 18), you will normally have the right to a 20 minute rest break if you are expected to work more than six hours at a stretch.

A lunch or coffee break can count as your rest break. Additional breaks might be given by your contract of employment. There is no statutory right to 'smoking breaks'.

The requirements are:

 

 

• the break must be in one block
  
• it cannot be taken off one end of the working day - it must be somewhere in the middle
  
• you are allowed to spend it away from the place on your employer's premises where you work
  
• your employer can say when the break must be taken, as long as it meets these conditions
  

[greendollar]

Hi HH ,

 

The statements made by other employees are irrelevant .

 

As your employer hasn't spoken to you before about your performance then thats not the issue , its working without a break thats the problem .

 

My employer also made a rediculous statement in summing up my (failed) appeal :

 

" it is my veiw , on the balance of probabilities , that this is not your first deviation of the safety rules , therefore I'm upholding the decision to dismiss you "

 

I had a clean safety record and passed all my numerous assessments in my 6 yrs employment with ease .

 

You can't dismiss someone because you think they have broken rules you need facts to back up your case when your accusing an employee of failing to do their job properly .

 

I wouldn't worry about these statements made by these employees .

[hedgehog1234]

Yep a black and white contract stating 8am to 3pm and I worked alone on my rotated Saturday morning. I had no break at all and no cover. I complained and was warned off - from here on in they had it in for me,plain and simple. I should have seen a solicitor then - ho-hum. No more shoulds or coulda's ! Thanks again for your advice -

[hedgehog1234]

Hi Green dollar - my page hadn't updated when I replied and didn't see your comment. In fact I replied and lost the entire contents of my first reply ! Had to do it over. Your case seems quite complex - how does the trial judge feel do you think in your case ?

[greendollar]

Hi HH ,

 

Well , we believe that my case is quite simple ;

 

1. Has my treatment been fair and consisistant when compared to fellow colleagues charged with the same offence ?

 

Answer ; No

I have one witness who will testify he received a verbal warning , the other will testify that he also received a verbal warning and then a written warning for repeating the same offence . Both had worse disciplinary records than me .

 

To repeat , I had a clean record and was sacked for gross misconduct for my first offence .

 

2. The amended works roster clearly shows that the decision to sack me was taken before my disciplinary had taken place .

I'm hoping that the judges will see this as making my dismissal automatically unfair .

 

There are some other points such as being refused a witness and the reporting officer holding the investigation that help my case .

 

The judge has not given any indication on the possible outcome of my claim .

He has made it quite clear that he is not happy with my ex-employers conduct though .......he was that angry with them at the abandoned tribunal I thought I was going to get the judgement by defaulti

They then went on to seriously pi$$ off the judge at the CMD .

 

I would ideally like to see this concluded at the tribunal rather than settle as their conduct has been appalling , after watching them get severely battered by the judge once I would dearly like to see it happen again and they've certainly continue their campaign of threats , harrassment and even resorted to lying since the judge ordered them to get their act together .

 

This is from a multi national company that employs 80'000 people in over 100 countries .

[hedgehog1234]

Yes indeed it does sound like they've made some mistakes,employment law is very complex apparently ! Hence why your case is dragging on when it might appear on the face of to be more favourable to you,the fact that it's still proceeding is of course more advantageous to you. I once again wish you well :O)

This will now be my last question and I'll keep it simple - and will buy the person who answers a pint ! :O)

In my case the respondent denies that I made grievance either before my resignation or in the grievance meeting,they are also suggesting that I didn't properly state my exact grievance (working more than six hours without a break) until just before the trial (but before the deadline). However the fact that I did (work more than six hours) is irrefutable because on that shift which is in my contract and on the time sheets they are providing in the trial it clearly states 8am to 3pm. I worked alone on the shift. No one came into the dept to allow me to leave for 20 mins after six hours. So ! Can they get out of this ? Please please let me know this evening - thank you :O)

[greendollar]

Hi HH ,

 

So they admit that a grievance meeting took place ?

 

What do they say took place at this meeting , any paperwork available ?

 

Are they saying that you had a break , if so , you should get them to state the person/persons who relieved you or if your post was unmanned whilst you had your break .

 

Sounds as if its just going to be your word against theirs but if you have a copy of the time sheets showing you working a 7 hr shift without allowing for a break then that should go in your favour .

Edited September 19, 2010 by greendollar

[hedgehog1234]

Oh yer for sure there was a meeting in which everything I said was contradicted and manipulated to the point where what actually happened was unrecognizable in the minutes. The note taker has just signed a form confirming the accuracy of the minutes (really bad karma for someone coming). No they are not saying I had a break,they can't. Their argument is I didn't raise it as a concern and Tribunal Action filled my ET1 and didn't mention it (once this is thru my case against them will proceed). So in essence my question is can they ask the tribunal to disregard my breach of contract argument on the technicality that it wasn't raised in the grievance meeting (although of course it was) or in the ET1 ?

[greendollar]

Hi HH ,

 

I no expert but from what can gather the judge will allow late evidence and you have Tribunal Actions failures to explain why this wasn't bought up sooner anyway .

 

Have you signed the minutes of the grievance meeting ?

[hedgehog1234]

Hi ! Well just got back and all considered I decided to drop the case on condition that they didn't seek costs - I wasn't sure how the judge would take the late evidence and the way the case was handle with regards to Tribunal Action etc. So that's it - all done and I'm just relieved it's over - yes I should have got something out of it money wise but I've learned quite a bit about myself in the process. Yes I have the nagging feeling about should I have continued but on balance I just couldn't risk costs against me. Thank you all so much for your help ! I'm now going to have a holiday and start on the case against Trib Action. Will contribute to this site this evening - going for a snooze now :O) Thanks again - HH

[greendollar]

Hi HH ,

I'm sure your relieved its all over for you now .

 

It seems that the ever present threat of costs has seen off another claimant when the reality is that costs are very rarely awarded ( 3% of cases) .

As long as your happy with your decision its the right one for you .

 

kind regards Greendollar

 

ps enjoy the holiday

[hedgehog1234]

Hi - yes relief is very present. My decision was based on uncertainty. It was very unlikely that I would be successful given all the errors in my case - in fact it looked that I had indeed introduced evidence just before the trial started. So given this fact might,just might have looked bad against me and coupled with an almost non-existent prospect of victory I decided to be kind to myself and let it go. I understand that costs are rarely awarded but they sometimes are and I couldn't take the risk - it just wasn't worth it.

[honeybee13]

Hello again. I understand how you feel and it's a shame the lawyers did this to you. I just hope you can move on and be happier from now on.

 

I also wish you a great holiday. Go away and forget all about it.

 

HB x

[hedgehog1234]

It's very true that I will always think "what if" but from the very outset I was told my resignation latter was wrong and that I didn't make any written grievances before resigning - based on those facts I was told to leave and not waste my time or money. Some lessons just have to be learnt the hard way it would seem.. Good luck Greendollar and thank you Honeybee.

[hedgehog1234]

I'd just like to add that now the dust has settled I feel absolutely gutted that I bailed out at the last minute. I study psychology and metaphysics in general. I love cognitive behavioural therapy and like to think I'm able to control negative thoughts - however,I'm utterly sick to the stomach that I didn't risk going ahead. Every case is different and I'd be crazy to advise anyone to disregard costs - but my sincere recommendation is to either not start out in first place or if you do don't let your self get scared into dropping the case. Okay that's it ! I need closure now. I did as promised donate to the site and I wish you all well. I'm having a break from here for a while but will be back (once my case against TA starts which will be soon). I do work for a major bank so have some knowledge in that area :O) Bye for now - HH

[greendollar]

Hi ,

 

Nevermind HH , sharing your experience will help people thinking of taking employers to tribunal make a decision as to wether its actually worth it .

I know from my experience that it can be a very bumpy ride but if anyone out their has truly been shafted by their employer and , more importantly , can back it up with some hard evidence then go for it .

Don't be put off by threats of costs .

 

BOTH SIDES PAY THEIR OWN COSTS .

 

They will only be awarded against a claimant if DURING your claim you act unreasonably or disruptively . All you need to do is reply promptly to any queries and do exactly what the judge orders and you need not worry .

 

I to have come close to dropping my claim but the longer it goes on the more confident I am of winning.

Its not about the compensation , in fact I'm pretty sure that it will be reduced to zero due to my admitting(partially) the offence at my appeal .

Its about showing the managers that not everyone will take their bull**** laying down and to think twice before stitching a fellow colleague up .

All 3 managers who turned up at the tribunal all looked very uncomfortable and were not looking forward to explaining why they sacked me , and they'll have to do it again .

 

I'll post on this thread again when I have news of how claim is progressing.

Edited September 21, 2010 by greendollar

[honeybee13]

Hello again HH. I do understand why you've given up. When your state of mind is fragile, you start to doubt your own judgement. You've done it now and need to move on.

 

I hope you'll stick around on the forum after your hols.

 

My best, HB

[hedgehog1234]

Thanks again ! I'm back on the case now,I have a nasty cold and decided against taking a last minute break. I'm at home chewing it all over. Firstly good luck Greendollar I hope your case is resolved sooner than later.

I think under the circumstances I'll start a new thread regards Tribunal Action because having just googgled their name it seems they have quite a few issues :

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=2011027

I would also like at this point to ask about intimidation by the respondent's solicitor in the waiting room at the tribunal. I'm obviously not certain but I feel that their threats of costs during our conversation just minutes before the trial may have been excessive ? Am I flogging a dead horse here ? Are they allowed to beat-up claimants in this manner ?

[greendollar]

Hello again ,

 

I don't think you can do anything about the intimidation and threats now as you've dropped your claim .

Your post has given me a chance to air my own experience at my tribunal though .

After refusing their offer of £1000 not to turn up we were approached at the tribunal by the regional manager and his solicitor and were told that they were not going to back down , no offer to settle would be made and that they would be getting an Order for Costs which were currently around the £15'000 figure and rising , they were doing this to ensure no other employee would contemplate taking them to a tribunal again .

When my rep pointed out I was unemployed and how did they think they would be able to recover their costs they said that they would have an Order to deduct the costs attached to my benefits .

This approach , using threats such as these , most probably works with the majority claimants .