Respondent's legal Fee threat in employment tribunal ?

[Allwood]

Ring the law centre on Tuesday, they open late nights for employment issues. So you may be able to get some from there to represent you.

 

Good luck

[hedgehog1234]

Thank you :O)

[greendollar]

Hi H/H ,

 

Going through the Tribunal process myself and the costs issue has been raised numerous times by my ex-employers solicitors . They've had numerous requests for and Order of Costs turned down by the judge , also Deposit Orders and Wasted Costs Orders .

As you most probably know they just use these threats to bully and wear you down in the hope you'll drop your claim .

 

It is normal for both sides to pay their own costs , for an Order for Costs to be made against you then you will have to have behaved vexatiously , disruptively or unreasonably .

 

So as long as you have conducted yourself properly you need not fear the threats thrown your way .

Good lLuck

[hedgehog1234]

Thanks again,yes I'm aware the Tribunal rarely award costs,yet I'm obviously still concerned as I'm not sure exactly what might be described as unreasonable ? Might their expensive solicitor make my case sound pathetic ? I've emailed the Law Centre just now - be interesting to see what they say - Thanks again.

[greendollar]

Thanks again,yes I'm aware the Tribunal rarely award costs,yet I'm obviously still concerned as I'm not sure exactly what might be described as unreasonable ? Might their expensive solicitor make my case sound pathetic ? I've emailed the Law Centre just now - be interesting to see what they say - Thanks again.

 

Hi ,

 

My understanding is that you have to deliberately ignore correspondance / phone calls , be obstructive , not comply with orders ect,etc for an Order for Costs to be made against you .

They are just threats , as long as you comply with the Tribunals orders and answer any queries promptly then any accusations that your being awkward or obstructive can be rebuked.

[hedgehog1234]

Ahhh ! I guess I'll be okay then - Do these sort of cases normally run both of the scheduled days ?

[greendollar]

From my experience anything can happen .

 

My Tribunal was abandoned after just 10 mins because of the othersides failure to comply with the judges orders regarding the bundle . Quite amusing listening to the judge rip their solicitor to shreds though but he still gave them more time to get their act together .

Be warned they will try every trick in the book to try and obtain a Costs Order as they know its their best hope of getting you to drop your claim .

In my case they left out ALL the documents I requested be put in the bundle and handed it over to me on a Fri , the Tribunal was on the Mon .

I had to take copies with me and ask the judge if we could put them in .

The judge wasn't happy .

They then tried to say that I'd tried to ambush them with new evidence on the day , completely untrue as I have correspondance from them that shows they've had the evidence for nearly 2 years (yes .its been that long )

Its a tactic to try and meet the vexatious , unreasonable or disruptive label and try to hoodwink the judge into giving them the Order for Costs they've been desperate to obtain , the judge has refused all such requests so far .

 

Make sure everything you need is in the bundle before you proceed , if its not inform the judge .

[hedgehog1234]

I don't really have bundle to speak of,nothing that's not already known to the respondent,so I can't envisage that happening,(at least I hope)thanks for the heads-up. How did your case end Greendollar ?

In terms of my argument of constructive dismissal not being supported with written documentation (only verbal) is there any generalization of how the tribunal evaluates the merits ? How often are cases submitted without written grievance ? As a simple yes or no - would I just be better off bailing out ?

I emailed the Law Centre and they auto replied :

If you are contacting us to enquire about getting legal advice please note that the Law Centre does not provide advice by email or over the phone.

[Allwood]

you have to ring them to make appointment to see someone regarding employment they are obviously very busy as it is a free service but they will be able to help with employment problems, my law centre is open on wendnesday night for this services:|.

[greendollar]

I don't really have bundle to speak of,nothing that's not already known to the respondent,so I can't envisage that happening,(at least I hope)thanks for the heads-up. How did your case end Greendollar ?

In terms of my argument of constructive dismissal not being supported with written documentation (only verbal) is there any generalization of how the tribunal evaluates the merits ? How often are cases submitted without written grievance ? As a simple yes or no - would I just be better off bailing out ?

I emailed the Law Centre and they auto replied :

If you are contacting us to enquire about getting legal advice please note that the Law Centre does not provide advice by email or over the phone.

 

Hi , I'm afraid I can't answer your questions , but you obviously feel you have grounds to take it to Tribunal .

You really need to take advice from an Employment lawyer .

I would ask the judge for a postponement to allow you to take some professional advice .

 

As for my case , its due to be heard in 3 weeks time , thats if my ex-employers request for a 4th postponement fails which it should as they have managed to drag it out for over 2 yrs now .

[hedgehog1234]

Thanks Allwood - I called the East London centre and they said someone would call back but their evening is Monday,I work till 8pm and I'm miles away so that's not really going to happen because I can't get the time off now with such short notice. Where is your centre ?

Greendollar - thanks again,I originally way back before I took the case to the Tribunal went to see the CAB and they told be not to bother as it would be hard to prove - perhaps they were right all along :O)

Good luck with your case - is there a thread running on the progress etc ???

[hedgehog1234]

I've received just a response from Claims Regulation regards my complaint against Tribunal Action - Here's what they wrote :

Thank you for your email.

 

If you are dissatisfied with your dealings with this business I suggest that you make a formal complaint to the business suggesting how the issue could be resolved. You should do this in writing and sent by recorded delivery. You should expect a response from the business in line with the businesses complaints handling procedure. Businesses must comply with the rules on complaints handling which state a business must have in place and operate appropriate and effective internal complaints handling procedure. Please also see the Complaints to the Regulator about claims management services guidance note (Summarized below)

 

 

• A business may decline to consider a complaint that is made more than six months after the complainant became aware of the cause of the complaint.
  
• A business must send a written or electronic acknowledgement of a complaint within five business days of receipt, giving the name or job title of the individual handling the complaint for the business, together with details of the business’s internal complaints handling procedures.
  
• A business must, within four weeks of receiving a complaint, send the complainant either:
  

a) a final response; or

b) a holding response, which explains why it is not yet in a position to resolve the complaint and indicates when the business will make further contact (which must be within eight weeks of receipt of the complaint).

 

 

• A business must, by the end of eight weeks after its receipt of a complaint, send the complainant either:
  

a) a final response; or

b) a response which:

i) explains that the business is still not in a position to make a final response, gives reasons for the further delay and indicates when it expects to be able to provide a final response; and

I ii) informs the complainant that he may refer the handling of the complaint to the Claims Management Regulator if he is dissatisfied with the delay.

 

If you are still dissatisfied after using the business’s complaints handling procedure then the complaint can be referred to the Regulator. However, the Regulator will consider the complaint only:

 

• if it has been raised with the authorised business, and
  
• it was made within six months of the complainant being aware of the cause of the complaint, and
  

 

• the business has not responded to the complaint within 8 weeks or the client is dissatisfied with the business’s response to the complaint.
  

 

Should the company fail to respond within these time frames then you will need to consider taking your claim further through the Small Claims Court. More information can be found regarding this process at http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/infoabout/claims/index.htm

 

You will need to send them a letter entitled FINAL ACTION LETTER, should you decide to pursue a claim against them. This letter should make it clear it is your intention instigate legal action against them should they fail to provide your refund. Any cost of taking an action will be added to the total amount claimed.

Is there any advice anyone could suggest before I write my formal complaint ?

Thanks in advance (I'm now fighting on two fronts)

[hedgehog1234]

The East London Law Centre came back to today just to say that because I don't live in their borough I can't be helped (even though the East London Tribunal is hearing my case,go figure huh). So that's that out. I've contacted two local solicitors (I'm prepared to pay for representation obviously) but even they say it's too close to the hearing for them to be interested. Any other ideas here please ? - I'm getting rather anxious now - thanks in advance -

[greendollar]

Hi HH ,

 

Write to the Tribunal and ask for a postponement ( I think you have to inform your ex-employer that you have asked for this also ) stating that you need more time to seek professional advice .

 

As for my case . Postponed for the fifth time at the request of my ex-employer even though the dates were agreed at the last Tribunal which was abandoned because of their failure to follow the judges orders ........ now over 2 yrs since my dismissal and no closer to resolution

[hedgehog1234]

Hi - I'm sorry to hear that your case still has not been resolved. I understand how you must feel,I hope you can reach a conclusion soon.

I was given the number of community legal advice by the law centre and I'm now applying for legal aid thru them. The hearing is only a week away now and I've been advised by the CLA that it's unlikely the Tribunal will grant a postponement and I in all honesty just want this over and done now.

I admit that I've not done enough in preparation and should have pressed Tribunal Action sooner in terms of finding out where I was in the case. I have excuses but very few reasons for being where I now am. I've learned lessons from this experience that's for sure.

The last few days have been quite tough what with going thru the paperwork and rereading the case. I feel very betrayed by my employer and have been struggling emotionally to cope with situation and implications. For example - about 3 months ago I had an interview with a company in the same sector which went very well,the job seemed to be mine,then suddenly their attitude changed,I think they found out about my case. I could be wrong of course but it's certainly fair to assume this won't do me any favours in terms of reputation.

As I said,I now just want closure. Reading the lies my employer has said about me and all the mud they've slung has left me extremely bitter and angry. I'm currently studying psychology so I've become quite an interesting case study :O)

Thanks again for all the advice I've been given here,I'm hoping to get a sheet of paper from the CLA for the hearing outlining my strengths and weaknesses which is obviously very welcome.

[Allwood]

Hope everything turns out OK for you at Tribunal. I was there in the 90’s on my own despite being in a union and paying them for 10yrs. My employer was LA that was suppose to very leftwing and had a policy of positive discrimination. Thinking about it how it was back then, I cannot blame you for wanting it over and done with.

I have been in two more unions, which was just as useless no change there then. If you do by a stork of luck get an unhelpful ignored rep that does not know s/he arm from their elbow to even look at your case that is… My experience with unions is that they will make things far worse for you as they will always be on the side of the employer. I cannot emphasise enough for employees to take out insurance regarding employment disputes as things will only get worse due to the economy.

After taking my case to my employer to Tribunal it was impossible to get any sort of employment afterwards and had to registered many agencies to get some temporary work as permanent employer with CV was out of the question. Therefore it is imperative that an employee gets a good compensation package from the rough employer at a Tribunal, as you will be out of work for some time unless you immigrate of course.

 

Best of Luck next week.

[honeybee13]

Hi hedgehog. I hope you get to where you need to be in all this. In case you hadn't noticed, Allwood is the anti-union squad.

 

HB

[hedgehog1234]

Thanks again - I have no experience with unions at all so wouldn't like to comment. However,the sector I came from has generally (automotive) managed to get rid of all overtime and increase hours drastically with minimum holidays etc.

In summary of what I've learned from when this started over :

Make sure your grievance is in writing and don't be afraid - if you are concerned that they'll intimidate you then just state your case in full in witting and get signed off work. In most cases they will just pay you off and that will be that.

If you can get a proper employment solicitor and don't mess around with companies like Tribunal Action - don't try and do it yourself either.

Don't take what happens in work personally,companies are just out to make money and you and everyone else are just pieces of meat,they just don't care,never have,never will.

Anyway I'm just happy this will be over soon - I've had enough. I've got another job and I'm grateful for that at least.

Thanks again to all :O) Good to my word I will make a contribution to the site after next week (just need to find out if I'll have to pay the respondent's costs first - snigger)

Edited September 13, 2010 by hedgehog1234

[greendollar]

Hello again ,

 

Well good luck , have your say at the Tribunal and keep your fingers crossed .

 

I know all about the bitter and angry feelings myself , but its been going on so long I've managed to get over that .

 

Now I take pleasure when they complain about their soaring costs and how long its taken , their lies just amuse me now because I know that its all documented and eventually they'll have to explain their conduct infront of the judges at the Tribunal . After watching their solicitor get torn to peices at the last tribunal (abandoned due to their failing to comply with an Order ) I am looking forward to some more of the same safe in the knowledge that solely down to their own conduct that an Order for Costs against me are extremely remote .

 

Please let us know the outcome , good or bad .

[hedgehog1234]

Hi,thanks again,it sounds like your case is better prepared than mine,it's a mess. I've received a letter today from the respondents solicitor detailing what they will produce in the hearing and I'm a little concerned (without going into detail) because they are digging up dirt on me that I cant' believe. I'm facing the hearing now alone with all these allegations and statements against me with just my word of what happened. I'm actually very angry now and becoming obsessive about thinking about it over and over. I sometimes wish I hadn't bothered at all now and I'm concerned that I'll end having to pay them money ! How ironic would that be ! If I ask the tribunal to drop the case could they award the costs against me ?

[greendollar]

Hi HH ,

 

Please don't give up now , its exactly what they want .

 

I too have doubted wether I should have bothered but thats just their mind games wearing you down .

 

Try to focus on why you decided to make a claim in the first place ,

 

I think all claimants have the same feelings that your having .

 

Has the dirt they are digging up any foundation ? They have to prove what they are saying .

 

I now how worrying this must be for you , especially as you facing this alone . Take a friend along for support .

 

Your so close to the end now it would be a shame to buckle under the threats and let them off scot free .

 

As for costs , don't worry , although there are no guarantees its extremely unlikely that any will be awarded and IF thet are they will most probably be minimal .

 

Good Luck

[honeybee13]

Hello again. I second what greendollar says, I think it's scare tactics too. There have been several discussions about costs and unless your claim is vexatious or you are persistently unhelpful, it's pretty unlikely it seems that you'd be liable for costs.

 

The claims against you are obviously going to be tough to read, but do as greendollar says and try to stay calm and logical. They will want to dig up everything they can to try and look reasonable, but if they can't prove it, then you must be ready to tell your version. Historically, tribunals have been very helpful to self-representers and are just as likely to believe your version of events as the other side's if there's no proof.

 

Post as much as you need to until this is over, it's what we're here for.

 

HB x

[greendollar]

Me again ,

 

Don't worry about their mud slinging , the Tribunal will only be interested with the facts surrounding your dismissal , if they have to resort to digging up dirt then perhaps they realise they may not have such a strong case after all .

[hedgehog1234]

Thanks guys :O) I had a dark night last night but I'm okay now. I spent a couple of hours writing my version of the grievance meeting which I delivered in person by hand to the respondents solicitor's this morning - 4 hours before the deadline. I wasn't sure if I needed to make them aware or not so I figured that it was better to make it available to them and avoid the risk of criticism during the trial for presenting material late. Anyway I was extremely happy with what I wrote and I've also had a break thru with the CLA. They have written a letter requesting a postponement. Tribunal action as described many times before, made a major phuck-up in my case. I won't detail it here for obvious reasons,but my case would have been much stronger had they not failed to include this information. So now I'm hoping to start over with a proper solicitor and go for it full on. We shall see ! Thanks again to everyone - I will of course let you know the result next week.

[honeybee13]

It sounds as if you've turned a corner here, well done. Please keep us posted, as you said.

 

HB x