Brighton council PCN - Pay and Display - Appeal Failed on Parking Ticket

[robert_harper_2000]

Was that how you were parked on the day of the offence (or were those photo's taken at a later date).

 

I'm asking because the shown is clearly parked outside the marked area

 

Mossy

 

A few days later

[robert_harper_2000]

Marked area? I could get a bunch of primary school kids to mark a compliant bay! The Council can't manage adults to do it!

 

Bays are rubbish as expected. Can't see everything from your pics but basically a hybrid of diagrams 1028.4 and 1032.

 

Basics here.

 

How to appeal unfair parking and loading tickets - Ticketfighter.co.uk

 

Check TSRGD via opsi site for confirmation if you like. In effect, there is no prescribed marking bay and no PCN can be legally enforced.

-

 

Wow hope you are right, why doesn't the council just do things properly lol I'll read up and let you know

 

 

So do you mean because the bays aren't marked individually then the following applies

"Bays without individually marked spaces should start and end with a single row of white lines."

 

My bay above has double white lines, so this invalidates it?

 

I think they have marked well ended the bay with a individual bay ending when it is a continuous bay, correct?

Edited September 16, 2008 by robert_harper_2000

[robert_harper_2000]

Would this letter sum it up or could you add anymore detail?

 

At the location of the alleged offence the road markings do not conform to the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions (TSRGD) 2002. *Diagram 1028.4 should start and end with a single row of white lines. I attach photographs taken when I returned to my vehicle showing that the yellow line does not have the correct bars. *I also include a witness statement.*

[lamma]

"why doesn't the council just do things properly" - perhaps they are set with a revenue focus rather than a compliance one ?

[Guest Ting]

The fun starts now. Brighton will reject you! they did in the other two cases I know of.

 

may have to take it to the Adjudicator.

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[robert_harper_2000]

That's no prob! As long as I'm right lol

 

The only issue I thought of was that the picture showing the back end of the red car; the car is on the parking bay we parked on and so should have single white lines but before that is a loading bay how would this affect the regs? As a loading requires double whites I think

[Guest Ting]

As a loading requires double whites I think

 

You should get a job with the Council mate! LOL.

 

No, loading bay can be 1028.3 (identical to 1028.4 but different signage reqmnts) or 1032 AFAIK.

 

You need to look through TSRGD, look at the diagrams and read the Regs and Directions the table with the diagram refers to.

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[robert_harper_2000]

I've printed it out but I can't work it out lol can you point me in the right direction? Is it something to do with finding the regulations?

[lamma]

they are listed in the boxes under the diagrams. you have to 'bounce around' a little to get there. thats just the way the document is. that was big printout - the pdf is nearly 300 megabytes.

[robert_harper_2000]

I'm confused if it is a continuous or a individual as the lines are faded. What do you think?

[Guest Ting]

I'm confused if it is a continuous or a individual as the lines are faded. What do you think?

 

As I said, can't see it all. From what I can see it is clearly tosh. Whatever they are trying to do it isn't vaguely like anything in the Regs.

 

Note the carriage side line traversing both pairs of transvers lines ? Then what is that other marking further out in the road.

 

If you've found the diagrams then you will know it's rubbish.

 

I am told that Brighton have a habit of denying this though and rejecting appeals. you may well have to go to Adjudication and with the fact that you did pay as well - good chance.

 

Some of this intransigence is simply due to incompetence and some due to them playing a 'percentage game'. They know that if they just keep refusing appeals very few people will pursue the whole way because it is a traumatic time of a couple of months. Others will take the discount option - Council know this. Some Councils even re-offer the discount again after formal rejection - many weeks after the initial discount period has expired. it is a clear enticement to prevent people proceeding IMO.

 

Your call mate.

[robert_harper_2000]

Nah I'll fight it, got a lot of work on but I don't like these jokers getting away with my money!

 

Keep you posted. I'll print this lot out and try and get my head around it, so the traversing line? What is that what do I look for?

 

Cheers btw

[robert_harper_2000]

I know I'm a pain but could you point out where page I need to focus on?

 

I'll print it out tomor

 

Cheers

[Guest Ting]

You're not a pain but I can only reply when I have time.

 

Oh you're gonna love this if i haven't already posted it ,lol.

 

The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002

 

Diagrams are in there and then you need to bounce around as lamma said to read the accompanying regs and directions - but oly in relation to signage requirements. I don't think that's the issue for you.

 

Even more detail in these little gems which I rarely let loose - DfT working drawings - which tell the Councils how to do it - as in 'painting by numbers' - and they still can't!!!!!!

 

1028.3 loading

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/tss/workingdrawings/roadmarkingsp1000series/p10283disabledparkingbayorba4417

1028.4 parking

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/tss/workingdrawings/roadmarkingsp1000series/p10284parkingbay2sheets

1032 parking or loading

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/tss/workingdrawings/roadmarkingsp1000series/p1032parkingbaywithindividua4419

Hope those links work. IT numpty me innit!

-

[Guest Ting]

Oh yeah and by 'traversing line' I meant that obviously there shouldn't be a line that goes across and joins the termination marks of separate bays.

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[mwacuk]

I never stick the ticket to my windscreen for this very reason, leave it on the dashboard facing upward (like a disabled badge)

[robert_harper_2000]

ThaT WAS the prob lol my gf left it on the dashboard and it slid down 'out of view' I could still see it!

b'stards

 

Printing now btw.... and printing and printing lol

 

Cheers everyone

[robert_harper_2000]

damn printer ran out of ink and I have another 100 pages to go...

 

Still not quite finding the wording that says this ticket will be invalid.

 

So

1. The lines shouldn't be joined in on another bay ie the loading bay next to it

2. The bay has double lines ending and starting but it has continuous dotted lines instead of individual bays marked.

 

Is there anymore I'm missing?

[robert_harper_2000]

The only thing is that I think there might be white lines as shown here

 

But they are faint

[Guest Ting]

No that's about all. What was that other mark in the road - further out?

 

If the bay isn't marked in a prescribed way then it is not a parking bay and cannot be enforced.

It's not a magnificent case but technically you are in the right. Case law to refer to would probably be Davies vs Heatley.

 

What are you printing out? You only need a couple of diagrams and, if there is any relevance, the particular regs and directions that apply to those bays/signs.

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[robert_harper_2000]

OK does this sum it up? used a few sources suggested; also will attach the P 1032 and a picture of the 'loading bay' and perhaps a copy of my permit too

 

Subject:****Fixed Penalty Ticket BHXXXX dated 15/08/2008

 

I received the above PCN on Baker Street on 15/08/2008.*At the location of the alleged contravention the road markings do not conform to the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions (TSRGD) 2002. *Diagram 1032 clearly displays the correct markings; A double line starts this type of bay and there are individual spaces without dotted lines along the side of bay parrallel to the kerb. The variations between the markings on the road to those in the Regulations are not de minimus as they do not confirm to drawing P 1032 sheet 1 of 2 prescribed parameters set out by both Ministers and the Secretary of State in the current Regulations and Statute.

I therefore believe that Brighton & Hove City Council has acted beyond its powers in Placing non-prescribed restrictions on the highways in its area.

Further, I am aware that your highway engineers are provided with clear guidance on the provision of such lines and bays within Chapter 3 and Chapter 5 of the Traffic Signs Manual, both of which confirm the correct marking of a highway.

 

Whilst there tends to be a belief amongst some that a sign has merely to be recognisable as a sign to apply a restriction the Case of Davies v Heatley 1971 directs that even if a sign is clearly recognisable to a man as being a sign of that kind if it does conform to regulations no offence is committed.

 

Your authority has a clear duty in law, having access to relevant legislation, Government guidance and advice and of course, your own Legal Department. *It is clear to me that the failure to sign the city to prescribed requirements must therefore be a conscious decision.

 

Further, as the Department for Transport points out to an authority provided with de-criminalised parking powers, you would be advised not to enforce defective lines and signs as they would invalidate the ticket issued, I therefore suggest that the decision to enforce defective restrictions must also be a conscious choice to act in breach of the law.

 

In conclusion, I do not accept that the parking restrictions imposed on Baker Street are lawful, that the ticket issued is therefore invalid and the actions of the authority are in full knowledge of the breach of law and their legal obligations.

 

I take this opportunity to notify you that it is my intention to:

*

****a)****Appeal the Penalty Charge Notice to the Parking Adjudication Service

*

****b)****Make a formal complaint to the Local Government Ombudsman of maladministration causing injustice

********

I look forward to your early response.

[Guest Ting]

Yeah pretty good. just a couple of things to change but first need to clarify something.

If this is a further informal challenge then they will probably ignore you. If the discount period has already expired then best to wait for the Notice to Owner and use that as 'formal representations' in the prescribed manner.

 

1/. Change 'Fixed penalty Ticket' at the top to 'Penalty Charge Notice'

 

2/. the issue with the bay is that it ios a mix of 1032and 1028.4 so show both diagrams and say that it conforms to neither.

 

I like the quote from D v H. Good you've done some research.

 

Where you say various things about them deliberately flouting the law - well yeah but they will take you off the christmas card list! LOL! A good expression to use, without being so accusing, is 'acting beyond your authority'.

 

You used another bit that I think is good cos I've used it. Pointing out there responsibilities and the resources they have available to get things right. Could enhance by saying something like 'It should not be for the average person to be educating you about such matters' ?

 

hope that helps.

 

just clarify the timescale for me and if you have received the NtO?

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If so, please show it.

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[robert_harper_2000]

I received the NtO on 02/10/08 and have 28 days to get my letter off to them. I'll add my re-worded letter in a mo

 

Thanks btw can't wait! lol tempted to get another ticket lol (joke)

[robert_harper_2000]

Subject:****Penalty Charge Notice BHxxxx dated 15/08/2008

 

I received the above PCN on xxxxx Street on 15/08/2008.*At the location of the alleged contravention the road markings do not conform to the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions (TSRGD) 2002. *It is instead a mix of Diagrams 1032 and 1028.4 and conforms to neither. The variations between the markings on the road to those in the Regulations are not de minimus as they do not confirm to 1032 and 1028.4 prescribed parameters set out by both Ministers and the Secretary of State in the current Regulations and Statute.

I therefore believe that Brighton & Hove City Council has acted beyond its powers in Placing non-prescribed restrictions on the highways in its area.

Further, I am aware that your highway engineers are provided with clear guidance on the provision of such lines and bays within Chapter 3 and Chapter 5 of the Traffic Signs Manual, both of which confirm the correct marking of a highway.

 

Whilst there tends to be a belief amongst some that a sign has merely to be recognisable as a sign to apply a restriction the Case of Davies v Heatley 1971 directs that even if a sign is clearly recognisable to a man as being a sign of that kind if it does conform to regulations no offence is committed.

 

Your authority has a clear duty in law, having access to relevant legislation, Government guidance and advice and of course, your own Legal Department. *It is clear to me that the failure to sign the city to prescribed requirements must therefore be a conscious decision.

 

Further, as the Department for Transport points out to an authority provided with de-criminalised parking powers, you would be advised not to enforce defective lines and signs as they would invalidate the ticket issued, I therefore suggest that the decision to enforce defective restrictions must also be a conscious choice to acting beyond your authority.

 

In conclusion, I do not accept that the parking restrictions imposed on Baker Street are lawful, that the ticket issued is therefore invalid and the actions of the authority are in full knowledge of the breach of law and their legal obligations.

 

I take this opportunity to notify you that it is my intention to:

*

****a)****Appeal the Penalty Charge Notice to the Parking Adjudication Service

*

****b)****Make a formal complaint to the Local Government Ombudsman of maladministration causing injustice

 

It should not be for the average person to be educating you about such matters********

 

I look forward to your early response.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

 

 

 

Scanner is playing up, I'll get a copy of the NtO and blank out all the important bits tomor if I get it working!

Edited October 7, 2008 by robert_harper_2000

[letshelp]

Hi Robert,

Letter reads well, best of luck.

regards