Brighton council PCN - Pay and Display - Appeal Failed on Parking Ticket

[robert_harper_2000]

My gf parked in pay and display but didn't stick it to the window, it slid down and wasn't that visable. We got a ticket but she drove straight up to Appeal, left the pay and display voucher to prove we had paid and was told the warden must have been over zealous. We later get a reply saying you should have paid. We have no proof as we left the permit with them!

 

Another point is that we haven't received a note in the post? Isn't that a requirement? Or was that because we appealed so quickly?

 

Cheers,

Rob

[lamma]

council ticket or PPC ? giving away the proof of payment a bad idea in either case .

[robert_harper_2000]

PCN my gf only just passed her test that month and assumed it was some sort of gov. agency and trusted them.... I wouldn't have!

 

So not much chance unless go back up there and speak to him directly!

[havinastella]

was it a Council/Police ticket or a private parking company like NCP/Euro car parks?

[spooner400]

was it a Council/Police ticket or a private parking company like NCP/Euro car parks?

 

If it's issued by the Local Authority, you should try to make a formal complaint with the council's complaints dept officer, under stage 1. There certainly is a case to officially complain due to a) 'admin mismanagement' and b) being treated unfairly (your valid display ticket 'going missing').

 

If you get hounded by bailiffs, you need to write to them explaining the new circumstances. They are then legally bound to 'pause' until the case is resolved as this is in dispute.

 

When anyone makes a formal complaint to any local authority they are duty bound to respond in 28 days under the Local Government Act. This goes in 3 stages ending up with the Local Government Ombudsman, high court, etc.

 

My wife had x3 parking tickets issued against her from 2001!! Only last month, the case was finally dropped because she made a formal complaint.

 

If it's a private ticket, you may find it more harder as they are private companies who are obviously in it for the money. There should be some regulator, that I'm not sure of. Someone on this forum may know more than me on that subject.

 

Don't be scared. Whatever the outcome, you will become stronger!

 

Good luck.

Edited September 10, 2008 by spooner400

[robert_harper_2000]

was it a Council/Police ticket or a private parking company like NCP/Euro car parks?

 

 

It was just Pay and Display so it is Brighton Council. My letter said I need to pay within 14 days and it will be kept at £25 after which goes to £50. So I should go back up to the Parking Centre and ask to make a formal complaint? Is there a procedure I can view online?

 

Thanks for help I was thinking of giving up but no why should I, I did actually pay for the ticket!!

[robert_harper_2000]

Yeah, just found on their website use form 'Complaints, comments & Compliments' form for formal complaints, I think we should both go up there find him and take his name and add him to our complaint.

 

Keep you posted

[Guest Ting]

It was just Pay and Display so it is Brighton Council.

 

Was this 'on-street' P&D ? If so, quite a few non-compliant bays in Brighton I hear.

Can you get pics?

 

On the complaints angle -whooaaa. Surprised everyone thinks aggression is a good tack.

If you can find the person concerned at the parking shop could you not start by asking them for the p&d ticket first?

If unsuccessful, get their name and then you go down the complaints route - but definitely not via the parking dept.

 

Just my view.

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[robert_harper_2000]

OK well the ticket did comply but how could the bay not comply? There are signs next to it etc but is there anything elsE??

 

Cheers

[spooner400]

On the complaints angle -whooaaa. Surprised everyone thinks aggression is a good tack.

If you can find the person concerned at the parking shop could you not start by asking them for the p&d ticket first?

If unsuccessful, get their name and then you go down the complaints route - but definitely not via the parking dept.

 

Just my view.

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Don't worry, it's not about being agressive, it's about standing up for yourself. It's extremely unlikely/probably non-existant that the P + d ticket would ever surface again, I would miss visiting the parking shop as the assistant probably woudn't have a clue where your 'lost' P + d ticket went, so that would be a waste of time. In this case, if RH2000 wishes, to go for the throat with the stage 1 complaint (make sure you have times, dates, the name of the idiot who took your ticket, etc) as the clock is now ticking. As Ting mentioned, not the Parking Complaints dept, but the normal complaints. Most local authorities would rather see this solved ASAP as to them it could be 'politically sensitive' especially if it goes down the Local Gov Ombudsman route. Make sure you send your letters via recorded delivery and take the persons name if you speak to anyone from the council over the phone.

Edited September 12, 2008 by spooner400

[Guest Ting]

OK well the ticket did comply but how could the bay not comply? There are signs next to it etc but is there anything elsE??

 

Cheers

 

The bay may not be drawn in line with one prescribed in 'The Traffic Signs General Regulations and Directions'. The sign, that you seem happy with, may not be prescribed in the same legislation.

 

AFAIK latest - Brighton PCNs are compliant but ya never know!

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[robert_harper_2000]

Right ok I've found the following site

The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002

 

But what am I looking for? lol

[Guest Ting]

Easier the other way round mate. you haven't said whether or not it was on street?

 

need pics really.

 

If you really want to trawl through it yourself you are looking for diagrams 1028.4, 1032 0r 1033.

Then, reading the small table that accompanies the drawings refer back to the main text of both the Regs and the Directions to find out the requirements.

Regs and Dirs will list the various permissible or mandatory signs for each bay - you then work back the other way around and find the 600 series diagrams for those.

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Fun eh!

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[Guest Ting]

This will give you the basic idea.

 

Making a challenge

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[robert_harper_2000]

Cheers guys, I mean I did actually pay for the parking it is just it was on the dashboard. In the reception they said I don't know what the problem is? I was told to re-appeal I have to not pay and await the NtO - but the fine if found to be correct goes up to £50!

 

I'll get the pics tomor, and it was on a street

[green_and_mean]

Don't worry, it's not about being agressive, it's about standing up for yourself. It's extremely unlikely/probably non-existant that the P + d ticket would ever surface again, I would miss visiting the parking shop as the assistant probably woudn't have a clue where your 'lost' P + d ticket went, so that would be a waste of time. In this case, if RH2000 wishes, to go for the throat with the stage 1 complaint (make sure you have times, dates, the name of the idiot who took your ticket, etc) as the clock is now ticking. As Ting mentioned, not the Parking Complaints dept, but the normal complaints. Most local authorities would rather see this solved ASAP as to them it could be 'politically sensitive' especially if it goes down the Local Gov Ombudsman route. Make sure you send your letters via recorded delivery and take the persons name if you speak to anyone from the council over the phone.

 

Unless I have missed something no one has said the P&D is lost?? The parking shop person had no idea of the circumstances of the issue of the PCN and was passing comment on the drivers side of the story. The contravention is 'not displaying a valid ticket' turning up at a parking shop with one at a later date is not going to automatically cancel the PCN. It seems to me the Council has looked into the PCN and decided the P&D was not displayed correctly at the time of issue and is now looking for PCN payment.Involving ombudsmen etc is a complete waste of time because at this point the Council seems to have done nothing wrong? If you think the PD was correctly displayed you need to carry on with your appeal through the proper channels not get side-tracked with pointless complaints about the Council.

[robert_harper_2000]

no no tbh the council did have the ticket I was concerned it might have been lost and that was why I lost the appeal. But it hasn't been lost and the council have been polite, I feel it was displayed correctly as it was only on the dashboard! not that hard to see, I think it is worth a fight as I had paid and displayed! I won't pay this and await the NtO and that is the appeal process route I need to take

 

I've got pictures of the road markings as a backup, I'll upload them tonight but I don't think there is anything wrong the end of the markings even has the 90 degree yellow lines the sign post has all the information and is within the correct distance...

[green_and_mean]

no no tbh the council did have the ticket I was concerned it might have been lost and that was why I lost the appeal. But it hasn't been lost and the council have been polite, I feel it was displayed correctly as it was only on the dashboard! not that hard to see, I think it is worth a fight as I had paid and displayed! I won't pay this and await the NtO and that is the appeal process route I need to take

 

I've got pictures of the road markings as a backup, I'll upload them tonight but I don't think there is anything wrong the end of the markings even has the 90 degree yellow lines the sign post has all the information and is within the correct distance...

 

If you are prepared to gamble on losing the discount rate, I would request photo evidence the P&D was not displayed correctly and then appeal again, there is a chance the Council will back down rather than bother going to the TPT. The Council are within their rights to reject the appeal if the ticket was not displayed even if you did purchase one although they can use discretion and just warn you to be more careful next time. It is unlikely if it was not displayed that the adjudicator will allow the appeal even with proof of purchase, although there has been the odd case when tickets have fallen off due to poor design that have been allowed.

[Guest Ting]

I agree with some of what 'mean' says. As i said earlier, an immediate complaint without making a polite approach seems very aggressive. I didn't particularly see any immediate fault on the part of parking shop staff. You stated your girlfriend 'left' the p&d ticket there - not that they kept it. Why didn't you ask them to copy it?

No point assuming that your p&d ticket has disappeared - until you know so.

In various cases Councils can be intransigent on various matters and talk utter rubbish - i.e. in respect of the legal compliance of their documents or signage. What they don't readily do IME is to blatantly lie. They will not want to sit in front of an Adjudicator if you are going to say they have lied about the existence of a ticket - too messy - so they are likely to be honest about that aspect IMO.

 

As 'mean' said, the photographic evidence, if any, is important. At the time you were at the parking shop that will not have been available.

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[robert_harper_2000]

sorry getting confused. The ticket isn't lost and I have had my first appeal rejected - I have the photos shoing no P&D. I was told to re-appeal I need to await the NtO; is this correct?

[Guest Ting]

Ok.

 

sorry I missed your earlier post about the recovery of the p&d ticket - which, as i said was what I expected to happen.

i was a bit concerned that the other advice given earlier suggested you should 'go to war' and saw no point.

 

If you wait for the NtO you lose the right to any discounted payment.

 

On what grounds do you think you can appeal? if the photo evidence doesn't show a p&d ticket then you will be deemed to have failed to display.

 

what happened about investigating signage and markings - your only option from what I can see?

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[robert_harper_2000]

Does feel abit unfair, as we are newbie drivers and she didn't even realise that the ticket had a sticky bit on the back! lol

 

I've got the pictures, Cheers for this btw

Parking Sign

Parking Bay we were next to the sign

Start of parking restriction

End of Parking Restriction

[robert_harper_2000]

Any ideas yet /?

[Mossycat]

Was that how you were parked on the day of the offence (or were those photo's taken at a later date).

 

I'm asking because the shown is clearly parked outside the marked area

 

Mossy

[Guest Ting]

Marked area? I could get a bunch of primary school kids to mark a compliant bay! The Council can't manage adults to do it!

 

Bays are rubbish as expected. Can't see everything from your pics but basically a hybrid of diagrams 1028.4 and 1032.

 

Basics here.

 

How to appeal unfair parking and loading tickets - Ticketfighter.co.uk

 

Check TSRGD via opsi site for confirmation if you like. In effect, there is no prescribed marking bay and no PCN can be legally enforced.

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